2016-2017 model year 30 kWh bar losers and capacity losses

[edatoakrun]

I was recently tempted to take advantage of the relatively low residual on my 2016 SV lease by buying it out. As part of my research for this, I spent 2 weeks 'babying' the battery - never charged more than 80%, did several cycles from 80% down to 30%, and finally charged it up to 100% so balancing could take place. The result? I lost another 2.83% SOH...

Needless to say, I've shelved any ideas of buying out the lease...

The only rational explanation for those observations is that the LBC is incapable of accurately monitoring pack condition.

You seem to have formed some other conclusion...

[HIOJim]

I was recently tempted to take advantage of the relatively low residual on my 2016 SV lease by buying it out. As part of my research for this, I spent 2 weeks 'babying' the battery - never charged more than 80%, did several cycles from 80% down to 30%, and finally charged it up to 100% so balancing could take place. The result? I lost another 2.83% SOH...

Needless to say, I've shelved any ideas of buying out the lease...

The only rational explanation for those observations is that the LBC is incapable of accurately monitoring pack condition.

You seem to have formed some other conclusion...

So your idea of 'rational' is to reject data that doesn't agree with your preconceived notions. Got it.

[cwerdna]

Actually, I don't recall there being a guarantee of a _new_ battery. I think the wording was that they'd restore or replace it with something that wasn't down 4-bars. Kind of like refurbished hard drives under a 5 year warranty.

If you read other posts on this site, you will see that warranty claims after loss of 4 bars are routinely resolved by replacement of the battery pack with a new one.

I was talking about the 30kwh packs here. They received new wording on the warranty. I might've missed it, but I don't recall seeing anyone post about getting a new battery yet.

And per Nissan's updated warranty ( page 8 - http://juicedcar.com/wp-content/uploads ... ooklet.pdf):
"This warranty covers any repairs needed to return
battery capacity to a level of nine remaining bars
on the vehicle’s battery capacity level gauge. If
possible, the lithium-ion battery components will
be repaired or replaced, and the original lithiumion
battery will be returned to the vehicle. If necessary,
the lithium-ion battery will be replaced with
either a new or remanufactured lithium-ion battery.

Any repair or replacement made under this
Lithium-Ion Battery Capacity Coverage may not
return your lithium-ion battery to an “as new” condition
with all 12 battery capacity bars, but it will
provide the vehicle with a capacity level of nine
bars or more on the battery capacity level gauge."

Regarding the bolded parts, I'm not sure what "new wording" you're talking about. The first warranty booklet to mention a capacity warranty was for model year '13 and it has the same language (see page 8 of https://owners.nissanusa.com/content/te ... ooklet.pdf). Not sure why you're going to juicedcar or whatever for warranty booklets. The official place is via https://owners.nissanusa.com/nowners/na ... nualsGuide.

Correct. Nissan has always left it open-ended about new or used battery via the above verbiage. When the capacity warranty was official announced for '11 and '12 Leaf drivers, it also was left opened-ended: http://www.mynissanleaf.com/viewtopic.php?t=13192.

However, those who were part of the Klee class action settlement basically required those w/affected (lost 4 bars before capacity warranty expiration) '11 and '12s to receive the latest technology battery to resist heat degradation (example reference: http://www.mynissanleaf.com/viewtopic.php?t=18905), so they of course had no choice to provide a new one to those folks. For anyone who got replacements via the capacity warranty on '13 or newer, it became a grey area.

So far, it seems like only new batteries have gone in.

I'm pretty sure that Andy Palmer (possibly in the video at http://www.mynissanleaf.com/viewtopic.php?t=10257) has mentioned that it isn't their intent to just put in a 9 bar battery to replace an 8 bar one as they'd rather not have to replace more than once.

Numerous 30 kWH 4 bar losers have already gotten replacement packs.

[Oils4AsphaultOnly]

Regarding the bolded parts, I'm not sure what "new wording" you're talking about. The first warranty booklet to mention a capacity warranty was for model year '13 and it has the same language (see page 8 of https://owners.nissanusa.com/content/te ... ooklet.pdf). Not sure why you're going to juicedcar or whatever for warranty booklets. The official place is via https://owners.nissanusa.com/nowners/na ... nualsGuide.

Correct. Nissan has always left it open-ended about new or used battery via the above verbiage. When the capacity warranty was official announced for '11 and '12 Leaf drivers, it also was left opened-ended: http://www.mynissanleaf.com/viewtopic.php?t=13192.

However, those who were part of the Klee class action settlement basically required those w/affected (lost 4 bars before capacity warranty expiration) '11 and '12s to receive the latest technology battery to resist heat degradation (example reference: http://www.mynissanleaf.com/viewtopic.php?t=18905), so they of course had no choice to provide a new one to those folks. For anyone who got replacements via the capacity warranty on '13 or newer, it became a grey area.

So far, it seems like only new batteries have gone in.

I'm pretty sure that Andy Palmer (possibly in the video at http://www.mynissanleaf.com/viewtopic.php?t=10257) has mentioned that it isn't their intent to just put in a 9 bar battery to replace an 8 bar one as they'd rather not have to replace more than once.

Numerous 30 kWH 4 bar losers have already gotten replacement packs.

Thank you for that. I guess I missed it.

Although my skeptical side thinks that as more warranties get closer to expiration (and the factory not building new 24kwh packs), the refurbished batteries might become the norm. At this point, with evidence to the contrary, I'm just spewing FUD.

[cwerdna]

^^^
As I said, it's within the warranty's verbiage that Nissan has reserved the right to put in used packs. They could put in say an 11 bar pack from somewhere (who knows where?) instead of a new pack if they think it'll stay at 9 or above bars at capacity warranty expiration. It might be logistically challenging though. Where do 11 bar packs come from?

[cwerdna]

Seems like not many updates have been happening to http://www.electricvehiclewiki.com/Real ... 3.75.25.29 and I don't see any 4 bar 2016 30 kWh losers there yet. (I'd do it if I find some free time...)

Here are links to the 30 kWh 4 bar losers I'm aware of, so far. Please chime if I'm missing any 30 kWh 4+ bar losers or made mistakes. I've included their initials or MNL user name to help avoid confusion or duplication.

1) bakermel1, Phoenix, AZ, Sep 2017:
http://www.mynissanleaf.com/viewtopic.p ... 82#p506782
http://www.mynissanleaf.com/viewtopic.p ... 19#p506819

2) SB, Phoenix, AZ, Sep 2017: http://www.mynissanleaf.com/viewtopic.p ... 13#p506613

3) samrovner, Surprise, AZ, Nov 2017: http://www.mynissanleaf.com/viewtopic.p ... 24#p510024

4) LG, Chandler, AZ, Nov 2017: http://www.mynissanleaf.com/viewtopic.p ... 03#p512503

5) ST, Orlando, FL, Dec 2017: http://www.mynissanleaf.com/viewtopic.p ... 52#p514452

6) dfwpev, Dallas, TX, Dec 2017: http://www.mynissanleaf.com/viewtopic.p ... 59#p514659

7) BB, Lake Buena Vista, FL, Dec 2017: http://www.mynissanleaf.com/viewtopic.p ... 29#p514929

I have noted melody b and sflores91 have replacements

Thank you! I had to do a search to find sflores91. That makes entry 8.

8) slflores91, Las Vegas, NV, Oct/Nov 2017: http://www.mynissanleaf.com/viewtopic.p ... 72#p510772

[WetEV]

I was recently tempted to take advantage of the relatively low residual on my 2016 SV lease by buying it out. As part of my research for this, I spent 2 weeks 'babying' the battery - never charged more than 80%, did several cycles from 80% down to 30%, and finally charged it up to 100% so balancing could take place. The result? I lost another 2.83% SOH...

Needless to say, I've shelved any ideas of buying out the lease...

The only rational explanation for those observations is that the LBC is incapable of accurately monitoring pack condition.

You seem to have formed some other conclusion...

So your idea of 'rational' is to reject data that doesn't agree with your preconceived notions. Got it.

The battery statistics can bounce around by 3% easily. I've seen 10%. I don't think such rapid gains and losses in estimated battery capacity are real.

"Babying" the battery, in both my experience and from other reports, can lead to a lower reported capacity. "Heavy use", meaning long drives and many DCQC sessions, can lead to higher reported capacity. However, energy needed to charge the battery seems more constant, these changes don't seem to be real.

My 4 year old Leaf recently reported 100% SOH. Hx 100.59% and 65.54 Ahr. (Nov 20, 2017)

Yesterday, 91% SOH, Hx 91.74 and 59.96 AHr .

[jbuntz]

Seems like not many updates have been happening to http://www.electricvehiclewiki.com/Real ... 3.75.25.29 and I don't see any 4 bar 2016 30 kWh losers there yet. (I'd do it if I find some free time...)

Here are links to the 30 kWh 4 bar losers I'm aware of, so far. Please chime if I'm missing any 30 kWh 4+ bar losers or made mistakes. I've included their initials or MNL user name to help avoid confusion or duplication.

1) bakermel1, Phoenix, AZ, Sep 2017:
http://www.mynissanleaf.com/viewtopic.p ... 82#p506782
http://www.mynissanleaf.com/viewtopic.p ... 19#p506819

2) SB, Phoenix, AZ, Sep 2017: http://www.mynissanleaf.com/viewtopic.p ... 13#p506613

3) samrovner, Surprise, AZ, Nov 2017: http://www.mynissanleaf.com/viewtopic.p ... 24#p510024

4) LG, Chandler, AZ, Nov 2017: http://www.mynissanleaf.com/viewtopic.p ... 03#p512503

5) ST, Orlando, FL, Dec 2017: http://www.mynissanleaf.com/viewtopic.p ... 52#p514452

6) dfwpev, Dallas, TX, Dec 2017: http://www.mynissanleaf.com/viewtopic.p ... 59#p514659

7) BB, Lake Buena Vista, FL, Dec 2017: http://www.mynissanleaf.com/viewtopic.p ... 29#p514929

I have noted melody b and sflores91 have replacements

Thank you! I had to do a search to find sflores91. That makes entry 8.

8) slflores91, Las Vegas, NV, Oct/Nov 2017: http://www.mynissanleaf.com/viewtopic.p ... 72#p510772

I lost the 3rd bar a couple of days ago. AHr 53.72 SOH 67.59 Hx 64.63 odo 15,329 Hopefully I'll be on the list soon

[DaveinOlyWA]

Just lost my second bar today with less than 6k miles. I haven't even had the car for a year. At this rate, I'll probably have four bars missing by summer.

And then you will get a new battery at no cost under warranty.

Actually, I don't recall there being a guarantee of a _new_ battery. I think the wording was that they'd restore or replace it with something that wasn't down 4-bars. Kind of like refurbished hard drives under a 5 year warranty.

You are seriously going there?

You're joking, right?

[SageBrush]

No joke.
While Nissan to date has put in new batteries, they are not obligated to do more than get the car up to 9 bars.