2016-2017 model year 30 kWh bar losers and capacity losses

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vishvik said:
Hi, I have a 2016 Leaf SV (leased in July 2016) and have about 22K miles. Last week, I lost my 3rd capacity bar!! I still have 16 months to go on my 3-year lease. Wondering what's the best option for me going forward. I didn't take it to the dealership yet to figure out what's going on.
My Atlanta daily commute is 60 miles and I go to work 4 days a week. I use a level-2 charger each night.
Thanks in advance for any advice!
Nothing to do. When the 4rth capacity bar drops then take the car to Nissan for a warranted battery replacement.
If I understand correctly, the dealership will charge you ~ $100 for a "battery check" that will be reimbursed when the warranty is authorized.
 
SageBrush said:
If I understand correctly, the dealership will charge you ~ $100 for a "battery check" that will be reimbursed when the warranty is authorized.
We were charged nothing for the annual battery check or when we dropped the 4th bar recently. Not sure if others have had different experiences.
 
We have another from the Pacific Northwest in a climate that is nearly identical to mine (only 50 miles away) so we can continue to blame the weather right?

We are blameless right?

The reality is we DO have options but Nissan has simply made it a challenge. One that could be easily fixed by adding custom charging options.

The car above; driven lightly, only charged the the top half of the pack with level one. Lost first bar around 16K miles or so.
 
Chemistry may be at least as significant as climate for the 30 kWh battery.

Our 6 year old Plug-in Prius has a higher percent battery capacity remaining than our 2 year old 30 kWh Leaf. Both are air cooled, have the same number of EV miles driven, and of course, the climate is identical.

The Prius is mine, and I do baby the thing more. I routinely charge in the coolest hours of the morning before I leave for work. They wife has the Leaf and is less adherent to that regimen. Also, I routinely park in a parking structure at work, out of the sun and the thermal mass of the structure prevents the highest temperature exposure.

But if plug-ins are to go mainstream, they should not have to be pampered so much.
 
iPlug said:
Chemistry may be at least as significant as climate for the 30 kWh battery.

Our 6 year old Plug-in Prius has a higher percent battery capacity remaining than our 2 year old 30 kWh Leaf. Both are air cooled, have the same number of EV miles driven, and of course, the climate is identical.

The Prius is mine, and I do baby the thing more. I routinely charge in the coolest hours of the morning before I leave for work. They wife has the Leaf and is less adherent to that regimen. Also, I routinely park in a parking structure at work, out of the sun and the thermal mass of the structure prevents the highest temperature exposure.

But if plug-ins are to go mainstream, they should not have to be pampered so much.
The Prius plug-in has a TMS and active cooling using air
The LEAF does not have a TMS and cooling is passive via conduction

Moreover, the Prius reserves some ~ 35% of capacity that is not usable.

There are of course more differences, e.g use of the Prius after the usable battery is depleted, allowing ambient airflow at vehicle speeds to flow by the battery.
 
iPlug said:
Chemistry may be at least as significant as climate for the 30 kWh battery.

Our 6 year old Plug-in Prius has a higher percent battery capacity remaining than our 2 year old 30 kWh Leaf. Both are air cooled, have the same number of EV miles driven, and of course, the climate is identical.

The Prius is mine, and I do baby the thing more. I routinely charge in the coolest hours of the morning before I leave for work. They wife has the Leaf and is less adherent to that regimen. Also, I routinely park in a parking structure at work, out of the sun and the thermal mass of the structure prevents the highest temperature exposure.

But if plug-ins are to go mainstream, they should not have to be pampered so much.


what "exactly" is the true state of your Prius battery and how did you determine it?
 
I have no hard numbers including no prior run of any diagnostics on the Plug-in Prius. I have also never measured kWh consumed from empty to full.

Rather I have noted how far the battery lasts from full to empty on the same commute and routes for the time of year. I have lost ~20-25% since new with this metric.

Our Leaf, by comparison has lost about 35-40% actual driving range.
 
iPlug said:
I have no hard numbers including no prior run of any diagnostics on the Plug-in Prius. I have also never measured kWh consumed from empty to full.

Rather I have noted how far the battery lasts from full to empty on the same commute and routes for the time of year. I have lost ~20-25% since new with this metric.

Our Leaf, by comparison has lost about 35-40% actual driving range.


25% loss on the Prius is ....well rather shocking. Isn't the DoD only like 60-70%?
 
DaveinOlyWA said:
25% loss on the Prius is ....well rather shocking. Isn't the DoD only like 60-70%?
That is a loss of usable capacity of 20-25%.

IIRC, the Plug-in Prius can use low 20% minimum to low to mid 80% of actual battery capacity. So 20-25% of that window is lost, which is about 10-15%.
 
Update to http://www.mynissanleaf.com/viewtopic.php?p=519601#p519601

Seems like not many updates have been happening to http://www.electricvehiclewiki.com/Real_World_Battery_Capacity_Loss#Loss_of_four_battery_capacity_bars_.2833.75.25.29 for 2016 Leafs.

Here are links to the 30 kWh 4 bar losers I'm aware of, so far. Please chime if I'm missing any 30 kWh 4+ bar losers, made mistakes, double-counted someone, etc. I've included their initials or MNL user name to help avoid confusion or duplication. I may go back and eventually add approximate mileages when the loss was reported but will round to the nearest 100 miles or so. But, IMHO, it doesn't seem that relevant except in cases of extremely high mileage.

1) bakermel1, Phoenix, AZ, Sep 2017:
http://www.mynissanleaf.com/viewtopic.php?p=506782#p506782
http://www.mynissanleaf.com/viewtopic.php?p=506819#p506819
2) SB, Phoenix, AZ, Sep 2017: http://www.mynissanleaf.com/viewtopic.php?p=506613#p506613
3) samrovner, Surprise, AZ, Nov 2017: http://www.mynissanleaf.com/viewtopic.php?p=510024#p510024
4) LG, Chandler, AZ, Nov 2017: http://www.mynissanleaf.com/viewtopic.php?p=512503#p512503
5) ST, Orlando, FL, Dec 2017: http://www.mynissanleaf.com/viewtopic.php?p=514452#p514452
6) dfwpev aka Ron, Dallas, TX, Dec 2017: http://www.mynissanleaf.com/viewtopic.php?p=514659#p514659
7) BB, Lake Buena Vista, FL, Dec 2017: http://www.mynissanleaf.com/viewtopic.php?p=514929#p514929
8) slflores91, Las Vegas, NV, Oct/Nov 2017: http://www.mynissanleaf.com/viewtopic.php?p=510772#p510772
9) CC, Highland, CA, Feb 2018: https://www.facebook.com/groups/nissan.leaf.owners.group/permalink/1824559694281530/ - says he has a '16 SV built 10/15, delivered 5/16
10) LTLFTcomposite's family member, Orlando, FL, 18.7K miles, Feb 2018: http://www.mynissanleaf.com/viewtopic.php?p=519527#p519527 and http://www.mynissanleaf.com/viewtopic.php?p=520718#p520718
11) Maggie, Port St Lucie, FL, Feb 2018: http://www.mynissanleaf.com/viewtopic.php?p=519524#p519524
12) iPlug, Rocklin, CA, Feb 2018: http://www.mynissanleaf.com/viewtopic.php?p=520197#p520197
13) BB, Celebration, FL,10K miles, Mar 2018: https://www.facebook.com/groups/nissan.leaf.owners.group/permalink/1859116594159173/
---------------------------------
Side note: 3 bar loser (WL) in Los Angeles, CA at 10K miles at https://www.facebook.com/groups/NissanLeafOwners/permalink/1796538837110764/.

Seems like these '16 30 kWh packs are dropping like flies in warmer and hot climates. Still wonder if there are bad batch(es), a bad range in terms of production date(s) or if it's inherent to these packs or model year '16 packs.

Let me know if deleting out the newlines/blank lines between each entry makes this list look too crowded.
 
It would make sense to also solicit reports from those who have lost zero bars and have more than 90% or so SOH, in an effort to determine what if any climatic and other conditions these batteries find tolerable.
 
LeftieBiker said:
It would make sense to also solicit reports from those who have lost zero bars and have more than 90% or so SOH, in an effort to determine what if any climatic and other conditions these batteries find tolerable.
Perhaps, but they all start out with all bars and over 90% SOH.

Questions: What age or mileage threshold should we be asking about? Should we wait until they're say 1.5 or 2 years old, starting from build month? Or, should it be that they've passed thru 1.5 to 2 summers since built?

DaveinOlyWA had excellent stats on his 2016 S 30 before it was wrecked, but he was in the mild PNW AND it was an S 30, making it relatively new vs. all most 2016 SV and SL. I first heard about the "S 30" from https://www.greencarreports.com/news/1106593_nissan-leaf-s-quietly-gets-30-kwh-battery-upgrade-higher-price which is dated Oct 11, 2016.

From http://daveinolywa.blogspot.com/2018/01/she-gave-all.html, he said
Her final epitaph;

29,412 miles, Ahr; 82.34, SOH; 100%, Hx 97.51%, 257 QCs, 263 L2's.
 
I think that because of the calendar issue, it would make sense to start with Just 2016 30kwh Leafs, and ask for LeafSpy and other stats, like location, build date, and charging habits, from cars with 95% (93% ?) or better SOH. Later on it would make more sense to ask for 2017 cars with 95% or better SOH as well. We want to figure out if there are whole regions of the US and Canada where they don't degrade fast, or if it's more a case of an occasional car "getting lucky" by not getting hot enough for long enough to degrade fast. That kind of info might also support or finally refute entirely the "bad batch" hypothesis.
 
^^^^
DaveinOlyWA tried to gather some info at https://www.facebook.com/groups/seattlenissanleaf/permalink/1759785270719569/ from those in the PNW. That was back in Dec 2017. He got a whopping 0 replies.
 
cwerdna said:
^^^^
DaveinOlyWA tried to gather some info at https://www.facebook.com/groups/seattlenissanleaf/permalink/1759785270719569/ from those in the PNW. That was back in Dec 2017. He got a whopping 0 replies.

We'd have to rely on people posting here. There will be a natural bias towards bar losers, because people with zero issues don't seek out this site as often as those with problems. Auction info was critical in discovering the Canary pack problem with the 2013 Leaf; maybe it could help with this as well, when more 2016 cars get auctioned.
 
LeftieBiker said:
Auction info was critical in discovering the Canary pack problem with the 2013 Leaf; maybe it could help with this as well, when more 2016 cars get auctioned.
The difference is that the 2016 cars have a much better degradation warranty, so even if they are degrading faster, fewer are likely to get auctioned, at least not prior to battery replacement.
 
RegGuheert said:
LeftieBiker said:
Auction info was critical in discovering the Canary pack problem with the 2013 Leaf; maybe it could help with this as well, when more 2016 cars get auctioned.
The difference is that the 2016 cars have a much better degradation warranty, so even if they are degrading faster, fewer are likely to get auctioned, at least not prior to battery replacement.

I think the people leasing the car will, after experiencing prolonged degradation and range loss, followed by the installation of the very same crappy battery, will turn it in without a second thought. They will then get another brand of EV - or a PHEV.
 
LeftieBiker said:
RegGuheert said:
LeftieBiker said:
Auction info was critical in discovering the Canary pack problem with the 2013 Leaf; maybe it could help with this as well, when more 2016 cars get auctioned.
The difference is that the 2016 cars have a much better degradation warranty, so even if they are degrading faster, fewer are likely to get auctioned, at least not prior to battery replacement.

I think the people leasing the car will, after experiencing prolonged degradation and range loss, followed by the installation of the very same crappy battery, will turn it in without a second thought. They will then get another brand of EV - or a PHEV.
Or those of us with long memories regarding our 24kWh packs... Mine is about to drop it's 4th bar in about a month, and the warranty expired 3 months ago, with 42,000 miles. If Nissan decides to pay for half or more of the replacement pack, I will replace the pack, upgrade my TCU, and continue with it for a few years, and not write Nissan off as a brand. However, if they tell me to pound sand, I will limp along with my Leaf until I get my Model 3 at the end of this year, then sell the Leaf for a pittance.
 
Durandal said:
Or those of us with long memories regarding our 24kWh packs... Mine is about to drop it's 4th bar in about a month, and the warranty expired 3 months ago, with 42,000 miles. If Nissan decides to pay for half or more of the replacement pack, I will replace the pack, upgrade my TCU, and continue with it for a few years, and not write Nissan off as a brand. However, if they tell me to pound sand, I will limp along with my Leaf until I get my Model 3 at the end of this year, then sell the Leaf for a pittance.
I have a long memory and I remember signing a document at the time I purchased my LEAF specifically stating that the car had no warranty against gradual capacity loss. IMO, the fact that Nissan later added such a warranty to address a product deficiency in that arena should not be held against them, particularly since they even extended the warranty past its written provisions for some customers.
 
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