2016-2017 model year 30 kWh bar losers and capacity losses

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WetEV said:
The fact that simply driving more seems to improve lifetime suggests to me that a firmware change could make a large difference in battery life. Not if the OEM can prove that Nissan's other electronics is shortening the life of the batteries.

What specifically in a BMS's electronics, e.g. bleed-off voltage set point, or in its microcontroller's firmware could be contributing to increased
battery degradation? Surely, most OEM battery suppliers would be involved with each end-users BMS development team to define parameters
to avoid problematic issues, e.g. battery degradation. If not, the supplier potentially becomes involved in future liability issues and puts future
battery sales at risk.
 
WetEV said:
JPWhite said:
I've lost hope that Nissan are even trying to resolve the issue anymore. Let's face it, poor battery degradation has been present since the first car came off the production line in 2010.

The lizard battery(late 2013 to 2016 24kWh) is pretty good. If the 30kWh battery was similar, few would be complaining.

JPWhite said:
If the fix was simply electronics/firmware they would have taken care of the issue a long time ago.

The problem with the 30kWh battery is different than the problems with early 24kWh batteries. Batteries, regeneration, charging and balancing are all fairly complex. The fact that simply driving more seems to improve lifetime suggests to me that a firmware change could make a large difference in battery life.


JPWhite said:
The advantage for Nissan with going 3rd party is that they will recover any warranty costs from the OEM rather than have to continually eat the costs themselves. By selling the battery factories Nissan may have achieved that financial goal already.

Not if the OEM can prove that Nissan's other electronics is shortening the life of the batteries.

I have a replacement 2016 24kWh battery. 16 months later and 17,000 miles I'm down to 60Ah from 66Ah. I'd hardly say that's good. Tesla's can go 200,000 miles and lose less ona percentage basis, now *thats* good.

One option Nissan have with a third party battery pack is to do like GM did with the Bolt and have the battery supplier do the entire EV drivetrain. Then it's all on the third party. If you are correct about the firmware being the root cause of the 30kWh battery issues, why would Nissan continue to write firmware when they could outsource to someone who does so for a living?
 
JPWhite said:
Tesla's can go 200,000 miles and lose less ona percentage basis, now *thats* good.
Teslas do seem to do a lot better than Leaf batteries (esp. pre-lizard and what so far looks like the the disaster that is the 30 kWh pack) on both a time and mileage basis, but for 200K miles, that's assuming your pack doesn't get replaced for other reasons. I don't know of many Teslas at 200K+ miles on their original pack. Numerous old/high mileage Teslass have had their pack replaced for whatever reason, including failure of something inside the pack.
 
WetEV said:
LeftieBiker said:
That's good. IMO, people should buy a 30kwh Leaf only if they have modest (less than 80 mile) range needs. That's pretty ironic when you think about it...

The "No Worries Range" for any EV is about half of the EPA range. Somewhat more in milder climates, somewhat less in harsh climates.

Half of 107 miles is 53 miles. Well less than 80 miles.

Weather happens. Detours happen. Batteries degrade, even the best.

No irony intended.

Well, except my Volt. Battery hasn't degraded. Nor have I seen any Bolt degradation reports.
 
iPlug said:
Just dropped down to the 8th bar, wife noted this on turning on the vehicle this morning, stats on return:

AHr= 52.35
SOH= 65.87%
Hx= 62.84%
Odo= 18,050 mi
QC= 30
L1/L2= 629

Warmer climates are certainly one of the major variables, so thought this milestone might take at least until spring. But it seems these 30 kWh batteries degrade significantly even during moderate/cool winter periods.

I'll be taking the Leaf into the dealership later this afternoon for them to run their confirmatory diagnostics at to then setup battery replacement.
Leaf just back from the dealer today, 30kWh battery replaced:

AHr= 82.34
SOH= 103.60%
Hx= 97.45%
Odo= 18,729 mi
QC= 31
L1/L2= 660

3-year lease is up in about 13 months, April 2019.

Not sure we will go with a Leaf again. If we do, we don't need the range of a 2019 model 60kWh battery as the current Leaf is one of a two car family. But were we to buy, that liquid cooled battery would be a must. If we lease again, the range of the 40kWh model and the plentiful CHAdeMo in California/West Coast would be fine. If Nissan wants to replace a battery again mid-lease, that's their loss. :D
 
iPlug said:
iPlug said:
Just dropped down to the 8th bar, wife noted this on turning on the vehicle this morning, stats on return:

AHr= 52.35
SOH= 65.87%
Hx= 62.84%
Odo= 18,050 mi
QC= 30
L1/L2= 629

Warmer climates are certainly one of the major variables, so thought this milestone might take at least until spring. But it seems these 30 kWh batteries degrade significantly even during moderate/cool winter periods.

I'll be taking the Leaf into the dealership later this afternoon for them to run their confirmatory diagnostics at to then setup battery replacement.
Leaf just back from the dealer today, 30kWh battery replaced:

AHr= 82.34
SOH= 103.60%
Hx= 97.45%
Odo= 18,729 mi
QC= 31
L1/L2= 660

3-year lease is up in about 13 months, April 2019.

Not sure we will go with a Leaf again. If we do, we don't need the range of a 2019 model 60kWh battery as the current Leaf is one of a two car family. But were we to buy, that liquid cooled battery would be a must. If we lease again, the range of the 40kWh model and the plentiful CHAdeMo in California/West Coast would be fine. If Nissan wants to replace a battery again mid-lease, that's their loss. :D

Congrats! What is warranty on your replacement battery? Did the dealer provide you with an invoice, i.e. obviously no charge,
for your records which should state the replacement battery's warranty?
 
lorenfb said:
Congrats! What is warranty on your replacement battery? Did the dealer provide you with an invoice, i.e. obviously no charge,
for your records which should state the replacement battery's warranty?

No specific warranty language printed on the invoice. The back of the invoice has boilerplate pre-printed stuff: genuine nissan replacement parts language (12 months or 12k miles), but the original warranty period would still be in effect (long after our lease expires in 13 months). States parts and labor both 0.00.
 
iPlug said:
lorenfb said:
Congrats! What is warranty on your replacement battery? Did the dealer provide you with an invoice, i.e. obviously no charge,
for your records which should state the replacement battery's warranty?

No specific warranty language printed on the invoice. The back of the invoice has boilerplate pre-printed stuff: genuine nissan replacement parts language (12 months or 12k miles), but the original warranty period would still be in effect (long after our lease expires in 13 months). States parts and labor both 0.00.

As would be expected, you're still covered by the original new car warranty on the battery. Once that expires, the replacement battery
warranty assumes a general part replacement warranty.
 
The 30kWh battery warranty is 8 years/100,000 miles (from the original warranty information booklet):


LITHIUM-ION BATTERY CAPACITY COVERAGE
In addition to the lithium-ion Battery Coverage for defects in materials or workmanship, the lithium- ion battery is also warranted against capacity loss below nine bars of capacity as shown on the vehicle’s battery capacity level gauge for a period of 60 months or 60,000 miles, for vehicles equipped with the 24 kWh battery or 96 months or 100,000 miles for vehicles equipped with the 30 kWh battery, whichever comes first.

This warranty covers any repairs needed to return battery capacity to a level of nine remaining bars on the vehicle’s battery capacity level gauge. If possible, the lithium-ion battery components will be repaired or replaced, and the original lithium- ion battery will be returned to the vehicle. If nec- essary, the lithium-ion battery will be replaced with either a new or remanufactured lithium-ion battery. Any repair or replacement made under this Lithium-Ion Battery Capacity Coverage may not return your lithium-ion battery to an “as new” con- dition with all 12 battery capacity bars, but it will provide the vehicle with a capacity level of nine bars or more on the battery capacity level gauge.



So 30kWh Leaf owners in warm climates may be getting their battery replaced 3-4 times, gratis!
 
iPlug said:
The 30kWh battery warranty is 8 years/100,000 miles (from the original warranty information booklet):


LITHIUM-ION BATTERY CAPACITY COVERAGE
In addition to the lithium-ion Battery Coverage for defects in materials or workmanship, the lithium- ion battery is also warranted against capacity loss below nine bars of capacity as shown on the vehicle’s battery capacity level gauge for a period of 60 months or 60,000 miles, for vehicles equipped with the 24 kWh battery or 96 months or 100,000 miles for vehicles equipped with the 30 kWh battery, whichever comes first.

This warranty covers any repairs needed to return battery capacity to a level of nine remaining bars on the vehicle’s battery capacity level gauge. If possible, the lithium-ion battery components will be repaired or replaced, and the original lithium- ion battery will be returned to the vehicle. If nec- essary, the lithium-ion battery will be replaced with either a new or remanufactured lithium-ion battery. Any repair or replacement made under this Lithium-Ion Battery Capacity Coverage may not return your lithium-ion battery to an “as new” con- dition with all 12 battery capacity bars, but it will provide the vehicle with a capacity level of nine bars or more on the battery capacity level gauge.



So 30kWh Leaf owners in warm climates may be getting their battery replaced 3-4 times, gratis!

As expected, once the new car warranty ends, i.e. 96/100K for the 30 kWh, a replacement battery warranty becomes a one year warranty
as is the case for all vehicle replacement parts.
 
RegGuheert said:
lorenfb said:
As expected, once the new car warranty ends, i.e. 96/100K for the 30 kWh, a replacement battery warranty becomes a one year warranty as is the case for all vehicle replacement parts.
That is true ONLY for Li-ion battery replacements made under the original Li-ion battery warranty. For purchased replacement batteries, a fully capacity and defect warranty starts at the time the battery is replaced.

We're still missing the explicitly defined and annotated document from Nissan with respect to all types of battery replacements, to determine
whether or when a replacement battery is considered just another replacement part and falls under the standard one year warranty.
As said before, I seriously doubt that Nissan or any OEM automotive manufacturer would want a continuously increasing part replacement
liability, i.e. a battery, on their balance sheet.
 
lorenfb said:
We're still missing the explicitly defined and annotated document from Nissan with respect to all types of battery replacements, to determine whether or when a replacement battery is considered just another replacement part and falls under the standard one year warranty.
No, we are not. The explicit statement is in the link I provided.
lorenfb said:
As said before, I seriously doubt that Nissan or any OEM automotive manufacturer would want a continuously increasing part replacement liability, i.e. a battery, on their balance sheet.
Nissan does, regardless of what you believe.
 
RegGuheert said:
lorenfb said:
We're still missing the explicitly defined and annotated document from Nissan with respect to all types of battery replacements, to determine whether or when a replacement battery is considered just another replacement part and falls under the standard one year warranty.
No, we are not. The explicit statement is in the link I provided.
lorenfb said:
As said before, I seriously doubt that Nissan or any OEM automotive manufacturer would want a continuously increasing part replacement liability, i.e. a battery, on their balance sheet.
Nissan does, regardless of what you believe.

Sorry, I don't see a legally printed document from Nissan Corporate. You are aware of anecdotal information that gets posted on forums, right?
 
lorenfb said:
Sorry, I don't see a legally printed document from Nissan Corporate. You are aware of anecdotal information that gets posted on forums, right?
Brian Brockman was a Senior Manager of Corporate Communications for Nissan at the time he made that post.

Unless you can produce the warranty document for a purchased Nissan Li-ion battery that shows otherwise, we have it on very good authority that this is Nissan's plan for those sales.
 
Get it to 99k in a few years, let it sit at full charge until it loses bars, but before the 8 years is up, get a replacement battery for free. Boom. We will avenge you, people Nissan has screwed!
 
RegGuheert said:
Brian Brockman was a Senior Manager of Corporate Communications for Nissan at the time he made that post.

So what! Again, where's the present Nissan Corporate document?
 
RegGuheert said:
lorenfb said:
Sorry, I don't see a legally printed document from Nissan Corporate. You are aware of anecdotal information that gets posted on forums, right?
Brian Brockman was a Senior Manager of Corporate Communications for Nissan at the time he made that post.

Unless you can produce the warranty document for a purchased Nissan Li-ion battery that shows otherwise, we have it on very good authority that this is Nissan's plan for those sales.
And one other data point I am aware of that supports your position:
@JPWhite bought a replacement traction battery and told me in a PM that he read the small print warranty at the time and found it be similar if not exact to the degradation warranty for a battery in a new car.

So I am at least convinced that the 5 yr/60k degradation warranty was in fact offered on replacement batteries paid for out of pocket. I don't know, however, if this is still the case; or if it will be true in the future.

I admit though, it bugs me that that we cannot find the warranty from Nissan.
 
We received no specific new warranty document for our 30 KWh battery just replaced under warranty, no fine print or otherwise. I don't know if this is because the battery was replaced under warranty for no cost to us or because we are leasing or something else.

It would be incredible if a replacement battery restarts the 8 year/100k mile capacity warranty clock, so we should be rather skeptical without having that in writing. There have been folks on boards claiming to be people they are not. Additionally, some employees may misspeak/overspeak and endorse things not guaranteed by corporate.

It sounds like the reset warranty might be the case if the customer pays for a new battery out of warranty, but we should also want first hand written evidence of that as well.

If anyone has any sort of battery replacement warranty documented, presenting here would be most helpful.
 
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