2016 30 kWh Battery data

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jbuntz said:
Currently my stats are 50.44 Ah 63.46 SOH 60.59 Hx 21622 Odo 230Gid 4 bars down. Appmt for Tuesday to get tested for replacement.

I did a test yesterday drove 77 miles to 6 GIDs. 70 miles were at 70 mph and the rest at less than 30. LeafSpy reported 17660 Wh used .5kWh remains. I then charged to 100%. EVSE total input was 25 kWh. Input was at 6737 Watts. LeafSpy displays 5874 to battery 200 Aux.

At 90% charger efficiency that would add about 22.5 kWh. LeafSpy at 100% charge reports 17.8 kWh Remain.

There will be some loss between battery input and charge but this seems excessive. Maybe this is the bms reprogramming fix?

I also noticed that the car displayed 3.5 mi/kWh avg where LeafSpy showed 4.4 over the 77 mile trip. Or 22.65 vs 17.5 kWh used.

So what do you think the true capacity is and what are they going to tell me Tuesday?

Unless the power in is measured by something other than the LEAF (or LEAF Spy) then there is no guarantee that the numbers are accurate.

I would go to a public station like Chargepoint. They tell you at the end how much power was provided. See how the numbers compare to what LEAF Spy said you received.
 
DaveinOlyWA said:
jbuntz said:
Currently my stats are 50.44 Ah 63.46 SOH 60.59 Hx 21622 Odo 230Gid 4 bars down. Appmt for Tuesday to get tested for replacement.

I did a test yesterday drove 77 miles to 6 GIDs. 70 miles were at 70 mph and the rest at less than 30. LeafSpy reported 17660 Wh used .5kWh remains. I then charged to 100%. EVSE total input was 25 kWh. Input was at 6737 Watts. LeafSpy displays 5874 to battery 200 Aux.

At 90% charger efficiency that would add about 22.5 kWh. LeafSpy at 100% charge reports 17.8 kWh Remain.

There will be some loss between battery input and charge but this seems excessive. Maybe this is the bms reprogramming fix?

I also noticed that the car displayed 3.5 mi/kWh avg where LeafSpy showed 4.4 over the 77 mile trip. Or 22.65 vs 17.5 kWh used.

So what do you think the true capacity is and what are they going to tell me Tuesday?

Unless the power in is measured by something other than the LEAF (or LEAF Spy) then there is no guarantee that the numbers are accurate.

I would go to a public station like Chargepoint. They tell you at the end how much power was provided. See how the numbers compare to what LEAF Spy said you received.
My power meter is a cheap one I bought on eBay. It is hooked to the input side of my GE EVSE.
Yesterday I drove 46.6 mi according to NC. It took 14kWh to charge to 100%. Dash shows 3.7 kWh/mi. I measured the distance to work today. Dash 21.0 GPS 21.3
 
jbuntz said:
My power meter is a cheap one I bought on eBay. It is hooked to the input side of my GE EVSE.
Yesterday I drove 46.6 mi according to NC. It took 14kWh to charge to 100%. Dash shows 3.7 kWh/mi. I measured the distance to work today. Dash 21.0 GPS 21.3
Good data.
If charging losses are 12.5% then 14*0.875 = 12.25 into battery.
46.6/12.25 = 3.8 miles per kWh. The car miles/kWh meter is probably within display error.
 
edatoakrun said:
First, use mapping software to find your odometer error in your CW/NC miles driven reports to correct the mi in 3.5 mi/kWh....
jbuntz said:
...My power meter is a cheap one I bought on eBay. It is hooked to the input side of my GE EVSE.
Yesterday I drove 46.6 mi according to NC. It took 14kWh to charge to 100%. Dash shows 3.7 kWh/mi. I measured the distance to work today. Dash 21.0 GPS 21.3
Not clear from that comment, is how far you actually drove?

Use google maps or equivalent to plot the actual distance of your trips as precisely as possible.

I'd suggest you might want to try to use two days of commuting (driving slightly slower, if required) to get to (or beyond) VLBW, on one charge.

You only need to do this one time (carefully) as once you find the odometer error on your dash, and the (different error?) on NC, they will both remain constant until you significantly alter your front tire circumference.

Since your kWh meter is of limited accuracy, this will also give you a larger energy sample to reduce the uncertainty in the next step:

edatoakrun said:
Then, use your expected discharge/recharge efficiency to correct the kWh used error, as reported by CW/NC in 3.5 mi/kWh.

If your 30 "kWh" LEAF has the same error in kWH use reported on the Dash/NaV screen and CW/NC as do 2011 LEAFs, then you could calculate capacity loss from this consistent error, without having to do full discharge/charge tests...
By using the NC daily kWh use report, or the rate simulation trip reports, you can access the kWh used (to the nearest 0.1 kWh) in your dash display directly, without having to deduce it from the less-accurately-displayed m/kWh on your dash.
 
In the related thread at http://www.mynissanleaf.com/viewtopic.php?p=530808#p530808 @jbuntz has provided some valuable insights into what look like substantial reporting errors at low GIDs. That earlier post said:
jbuntz said:
I did a full discharge test yesterday. Got it down to 9gids on LeafSpy 3.639v 349.62v pack voltage. The qc screen said it was starting at 3% LeafSpy 2.2% soc .7kWh 98° Battery. 100% Charge took 31 minutes. Started at 45kW ended at 20kW. Started ramp Dow at 15 minutes. Ending temp 120F. Charger reported 19.81kWh delivered. (19.81 + .7) / 31.78 = 65% of original capacity?

Also, I was sitting in the car with th ac on for 30 minutes so I should subtract .5kWh from the delivered amount.

This is before bms reset.
The following discussion has:
jbuntz said:
At 9 gids the voltage spread was only 14mv. At 6 gids (turtle) it was 68mv 331v pack.
It was clarified that at 6 GIDs turtle light hadn't come on. There is further discussion about 4 GIDs last year being 282V pack voiltage so seems to be getting way out now. Any wisdom from others in this forum as to what kWh should still be in the pack with cell voltages above 3.4V would be welcomed. [EDIT] The voltages mentioned may be during charging so could be significant offsets due to Hx but still seems too low GIDs for the voltages.
 
Turtle is voltage controlled and GIDs is charge storage so there is no real way to correlate the two. I had turtle come on at 4 GIDs one time and 8 GIDs another on the same pack.
 
DaveinOlyWA said:
Turtle is voltage controlled and GIDs is charge storage so there is no real way to correlate the two. I had turtle come on at 4 GIDs one time and 8 GIDs another on the same pack.
This makes sense. I believe the issue is the difference between reported GIDs (calculated capacity) and turtle (voltage based). It seems the GID calculation may be substantially wrong in some cars by multiple kWh resulting in under-reporting Ahr/SoH.
 
dwl said:
DaveinOlyWA said:
Turtle is voltage controlled and GIDs is charge storage so there is no real way to correlate the two. I had turtle come on at 4 GIDs one time and 8 GIDs another on the same pack.
This makes sense. I believe the issue is the difference between reported GIDs (calculated capacity) and turtle (voltage based). It seems the GID calculation may be substantially wrong in some cars by multiple kWh resulting in under-reporting Ahr/SoH.

And your conclusion is; That possibly the 30 kWh battery degradation is on par with other Leaf batteries, and all that's needed is the BMS
firmware update to indicate such, right?
 
lorenfb said:
dwl said:
DaveinOlyWA said:
Turtle is voltage controlled and GIDs is charge storage so there is no real way to correlate the two. I had turtle come on at 4 GIDs one time and 8 GIDs another on the same pack.
This makes sense. I believe the issue is the difference between reported GIDs (calculated capacity) and turtle (voltage based). It seems the GID calculation may be substantially wrong in some cars by multiple kWh resulting in under-reporting Ahr/SoH.
And your conclusion is; That possibly the 30 kWh battery degradation is on par with other Leaf batteries, and all that's needed is the BMS firmware update to indicate such, right?
The underlying degradation isn't yet clear. In addition to significantly under-reporting, I am aware of some cars that are reporting higher than expected SoH (e..g close to 100% when over a year old) which have less measured capacity than indicated so they may drop with the update. I imagine the target, as in the owners manual, is around 80% SoH at 5 years. I think it is too early to say how they will track towards that even with the BMS update. For the 24kWh models we are sitting, on average, slightly better than 80% at 5 years here in New Zealand (temperate climate).
 
lorenfb said:
dwl said:
DaveinOlyWA said:
Turtle is voltage controlled and GIDs is charge storage so there is no real way to correlate the two. I had turtle come on at 4 GIDs one time and 8 GIDs another on the same pack.
This makes sense. I believe the issue is the difference between reported GIDs (calculated capacity) and turtle (voltage based). It seems the GID calculation may be substantially wrong in some cars by multiple kWh resulting in under-reporting Ahr/SoH.

And your conclusion is; That possibly the 30 kWh battery degradation is on par with other Leaf batteries, and all that's needed is the BMS
firmware update to indicate such, right?

well that is a leap over several other recommended observations.
 
Like many other 30 kWh battery owners, I received the letter saying the battery controller (LBC) was not displaying properly.

This is a record of my car just before the software upgrade (which took about 40 minutes):

GIDS 242 (67.8%), AHr 57.893, SOH 72.84, HX 70.98, L1/L2 365, QC 16

and after

GIDS ?? AHr 70.459, SOH 88.65, HX 71.07 (all 12 bars returned!)

I forgot the GIDs, will look tomorrow. So what do I think? It was great to see all 12 battery capacity bars returned. But looking below at the first capacity bar going away, I don't think I'm too far from that happening again.

Prior history is copy/pasted below.

J.Tim


JTim said:
JTim said:
JTim said:
First battery capacity bar gone, 3/17/17
Cross-posted to: http://www.mynissanleaf.com/viewtopic.php?f=30&t=23606

Manufacture date from inside car door is 10/15 *NOT* 2016 as I originally posted

ODO 6,084
AHr=64.97
SOH=81%
Hx=79.63
10 QC / 139 L1/L2

Charging habits: mostly from 20% to 80%, a few to 100%, from memory, 2 QCs in 97-degree temperatures, one or three times car sat more than 4 hours at 100% charge in the heat, and maybe twice (from memory) at 95% charge more than 12 hours (in a garage -- those times I misjudged thinking it would be a busy day, so fully charged ran short errands, car got to 95% at about 3pm, then sat that way until the next morning).

2nd bar lost [10 Battery Capacity Bars Remaining]

11/2/17
ODO 10,367
Ah=54.54 (climbed to 58.25 after driving)
SOH=73%
GIDs=257
HX=72.99
14 QCs, 276 L1/L2 [10 Capacity Bars]

-J.Tim

Added my car to:

http://www.electricvehiclewiki.com/Real_World_Battery_Capacity_Loss
 
Today was the first day I was able to test my power added after the software update.
Drove to work today trying to bring the car as low as I could and hooked it up to the ChargePoint charger.

13% Remaining on the battery, with two bars showing on the dash gauge.
Charger added 24.909 kwh to the battery. I did not have time to gather the latest LeafSpy data.

By my calculations, this means about .28631 kwh per percent used. This would mean an available capacity of 28.631 kwh. My understanding is that the car holds a small reserve charge of a couple kwh beyound 0% available power.

Looks pretty close to where it should be considering the miles on the car.

I would love information on how to best test the battery capacity.
 
dedwards said:
Today was the first day I was able to test my power added after the software update.
Drove to work today trying to bring the car as low as I could and hooked it up to the ChargePoint charger.

13% Remaining on the battery, with two bars showing on the dash gauge.
Charger added 24.909 kwh to the battery. I did not have time to gather the latest LeafSpy data.

By my calculations, this means about .28631 kwh per percent used. This would mean an available capacity of 28.631 kwh. My understanding is that the car holds a small reserve charge of a couple kwh beyound 0% available power.

Looks pretty close to where it should be considering the miles on the car.

I would love information on how to best test the battery capacity.
Part of the thing that makes the calculations difficult is you have to consider the efficiency of all the parts. The chargepoint is probably close to 99.9% since it only connects the power to the charger in the car. The charger is more like 85% since it has to convert the AC to DC and up the voltage to 400V.
One study said it takes 32kWh to fill a new battery to 28.5kWh. So 13% = 3.7 kWh + 24.9 added = 28.6 28.6/32 = 89% capacity?

I don’t trust anything on the dash these days so I am going to run it down to turtle and then charge it up and see how close it is to 32. Or 28.5 on a QC charger.
 
dedwards said:
13% Remaining on the battery, with two bars showing on the dash gauge.
Charger added 24.909 kwh to the battery.
About 12.5% charging losses, so 24.909*0.875 = 21.79 kWh into battery.
If 13% SoC remaining is correct then your full battery capacity is 21.79/0.87 = 25.05 kWh

I gather that a new 30 kWh battery in the LEAF has about 28 kWh usable, so your battery has ~ 25/28 = 89% of new capacity.
 
jbuntz said:
...One study said it takes 32kWh to fill a new battery to 28.5kWh...
I believe that the EPA certification only states is that it took 31.7807 to recharge the pack from stop, using L2.

Which is consistent with a ~30 kWh total pack, with ~90% (~27 kWh) available, and discharge/recharge efficiency of ~85%.

jbuntz said:
...I am going to run it down to turtle and then charge it up and see how close it is to 32. Or 28.5 on a QC charger.
It is useless to use a DC charger, since we don't know the efficiency or the actual "100%" charge level when DC charging.

And I'd suggest you try to complete the entire initial charge/discharge/recharge cycle using 240 V L2 within a reasonably constant pack temperature range, between 70 F and 90 F, if possible.

From p 56, in more detail:

edatoakrun said:
jbuntz said:
Currently my stats are 50.44 Ah 63.46 SOH 60.59 Hx 21622 Odo 230Gid 4 bars down. Appmt for Tuesday to get tested for replacement.

I did a test yesterday drove 77 miles to 6 GIDs. 70 miles were at 70 mph and the rest at less than 30. LeafSpy reported 17660 Wh used .5kWh remains...
You're on the right track, but first thing, throw out all the LBC ("LeafSpy reported") data.

jbuntz said:
I then charged to 100%. EVSE total input was 25 kWh. Input was at 6737 Watts...
At 90% charger efficiency that would add about 22.5 kWh...
But It is unlikely your discharge/recharge efficiency was anywhere near 90%.

Nissan's EPA submission for your pack reports:

Recharge Event Energy (kiloWatt-hours) 31.7807
https://iaspub.epa.gov/otaqpub/display_file.jsp?docid=36671&flag=1

Which is consistent with a ~30 kWh total pack, with 90% (27 kWh) available, and discharge/recharge efficiency of 85%.

jbuntz said:
I also noticed that the car displayed 3.5 mi/kWh avg...
First, use mapping software to find your odometer error in your CW/NC miles driven reports to correct the mi in 3.5 mi/kWh.

Then, use your expected discharge/recharge efficiency to correct the kWh used error, as reported by CW/NC in 3.5 mi/kWh.

If your 30 "kWh" LEAF has the same error in kWH use reported on the Dash/NaV screen and CW/NC as do 2011 LEAFs, then you could calculate capacity loss from this consistent error, without having to do full discharge/charge tests.

My 2011's LBC currently reports ~36% capacity loss, but the kWh use report error is close to a consistent 12%, meaning each nominal kWH reported on my dash/nav screen and CW/NC, actually contains ~1,120 WH, and my available pack capacity is now ~24 % below spec.

However, the 3.5 mi/kWh. you report (you're sure that was for the entire 77 miles, and only those miles? From the from dash or Nav screen?) suggests the kWh used, as reported by CW/NC was about 22 kWh (77/3.5) ~88% of the 25 kWh accepted on the recharge, close to the expected expected discharge/recharge efficiency and not nearly the ~20% error (see below) that seems to be shown by your 25 kWh recharge report.

jbuntz said:
So what do you think the true capacity is and what are they going to tell me Tuesday?
I have no idea what Nissan will tell you, but since your pack apparently accepted almost 79% of its specified capacity (25/31.7807) after a less-than-complete discharge, I think with further observation you would probably find that your pack still has between 75% and 85% of its specified capacity, as opposed to the ~63% your LBC is reporting.

The big variable you did not mention is battery temperatures during the previous charge, the discharge, and the recharge. The warmer the pack, the higher the available capacity, and also the higher the efficiency of the charge and discharge cycles.

Unfortunately (and unlike for the "24 kWh" packs) we have virtually no temperature data reported for the "30 kWH" packs.
 
jbuntz said:
Part of the thing that makes the calculations difficult is you have to consider the efficiency of all the parts.
More to the point, you have to take into account the test result variation. E.g.,
https://avt.inl.gov/sites/default/files/pdf/fsev/SteadyStateLoadCharacterization2012Leaf.pdf

Ed's attempts to sell an "accurate" method to calculate battery capacity whilst quoting inaccurate charging efficiency is funny.
 
jbuntz said:
dedwards said:
Today was the first day I was able to test my power added after the software update.
Drove to work today trying to bring the car as low as I could and hooked it up to the ChargePoint charger.

13% Remaining on the battery, with two bars showing on the dash gauge.
Charger added 24.909 kwh to the battery. I did not have time to gather the latest LeafSpy data.

By my calculations, this means about .28631 kwh per percent used. This would mean an available capacity of 28.631 kwh. My understanding is that the car holds a small reserve charge of a couple kwh beyound 0% available power.

Looks pretty close to where it should be considering the miles on the car.

I would love information on how to best test the battery capacity.
Part of the thing that makes the calculations difficult is you have to consider the efficiency of all the parts. The chargepoint is probably close to 99.9% since it only connects the power to the charger in the car. The charger is more like 85% since it has to convert the AC to DC and up the voltage to 400V.
One study said it takes 32kWh to fill a new battery to 28.5kWh. So 13% = 3.7 kWh + 24.9 added = 28.6 28.6/32 = 89% capacity?

I don’t trust anything on the dash these days so I am going to run it down to turtle and then charge it up and see how close it is to 32. Or 28.5 on a QC charger.

You assumed that the ChargePoint used was NOT a QC, i.e. no DC directly to the battery with no losses, except internal battery resistance
losses, right? Was that really the case?
 
lorenfb said:
You assumed that the ChargePoint used was NOT a QC, i.e. no DC directly to the battery with no losses, except internal battery resistance
losses, right? Was that really the case?
He said Chargepoint at work.
 
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