Roddzilla
Posts: 5
Joined: Fri Nov 30, 2012 11:22 pm
Delivery Date: 12 Feb 2016
Location: was Atlanta now Denver

My 2016 30KWh experiencee

Sun Jul 15, 2018 9:54 pm

Never thought my 2012 SL would end up having a better battery than my current 2016. It wasn’t always like this.

I had a very fun 2012 v8 Audi S5 when I decided to pull the trigger on a 24 month lease on a 2012 Leaf. That Leaf was the perfect commuting vehicle and the lease payment and electricity cost me less per month than simply putting premium gas in the S5. I sold the Audi and never looked back.

I ended up extending that lease for an additional year and put right at 43,xxx miles on that thing. Mainly commuting to work and evening/weekend errands. Life was good, but at the 30th month, I lost a bar and then another about 4 months later. I had lost 2 bars and was reading on here about the new chemistry and 30KWh capacity in the new ones. I decided to to turn the 2012 back into Nissan at month 36.

Fast forward and I finally find a good 36 month 15k mile per year lease on a 2016 SL with the new, big battery!

First year of driving the 2016 (same exact commute and charging pattern as the 2012) and I was getting between 100 and 123 miles of real range. I was very happy!

Then, toward the end of the second year, I lost a capacity bar. Then a month later, another bar disappeared. The third bar disappeared just weeks after the 2nd bar. I’m three capacity bars down and it’s time for the 24 month battery check at the dealer. Ironically, my report says the battery is in great condition despite my range complaints and 3 bars being gone.

I left the dealership and decided to buy an OBD Bluetooth dongle and Leaf Spy. Initial scans show SOH is in the low 70s and Hx is in the 60s.

I write an email to Nissan North America complaining about the battery... I get no response.

I decided to take a new job and make the move from Atlanta to Denver — the Leaf was shipped and arrived perfect (except the 3 lost capacity bars!). You know what else arrived? An email from Nissan telling me there was a software update that would calculate my battery capacity properly. Seriously?

I had the update done Friday and now I am super sceptical. Am I wrong for thinking this is an update that simply prevents these cars from losing their 4th bar (and thus prevents Nissan from replacing the battery under warranty)?

LeafSpy before the update:

AHr = 51.27
SOH = 64.51
Hx = 58.34
ODO = 35,813
3 capacity bars gone

After update:

AHr = 65.30
SOH = 82.16
Hx = 58.34
ODO = 35,815
1 capacity bar gone (2 were recovered by the update!)

No charging after the update and the 2 miles added to the odometer was the dealership moving the car around during the service (also had them do the tsb for axle clunking). Not sure if range is better as I haven’t charged or driven it much this weekend.


Is this software update legit, or is it kicking warranty claims down the road for a Nissan?

Thanks for reading, I know this message is long but I am super curious what others think??

DR
Roddzilla

2012 Leaf (turned in after 36 months). 42,xxx miles, 2 bars lost
2016 Leaf, took delivery Feb 2016. 35,xxx miles, 3 bars gone :(

Roddzilla
Posts: 5
Joined: Fri Nov 30, 2012 11:22 pm
Delivery Date: 12 Feb 2016
Location: was Atlanta now Denver

Re: My 2016 30KWh experiencee

Sun Jul 15, 2018 10:03 pm

Forgot to mention...

I showed the service writer my LeafSpy screen showing SOH and Hx before the update so he could see how crappy the battery was.

He asks me, “where did you get this information?” I tell him from an app that reads the ODB port.

He then says,”The technicians don’t like it when people use apps to get this information”

DR
Roddzilla

2012 Leaf (turned in after 36 months). 42,xxx miles, 2 bars lost
2016 Leaf, took delivery Feb 2016. 35,xxx miles, 3 bars gone :(

Dooglas
Posts: 284
Joined: Thu Apr 03, 2014 10:08 pm
Delivery Date: 04 Jan 2017
Leaf Number: 314779
Location: Oregon City, OR

Re: My 2016 30KWh experiencee

Sun Jul 15, 2018 10:56 pm

So, are you saying that you believed the LeafSpy readouts before, but you don't believe the LeafSpy readouts now?
2013 Leaf SV - lease ended, 2016 Leaf S30 - purchased

dwl
Posts: 107
Joined: Tue Jan 05, 2016 5:06 pm
Delivery Date: 08 Jan 2016
Leaf Number: 112097
Location: New Zealand

Re: My 2016 30KWh experiencee

Mon Jul 16, 2018 2:21 am

Many pages in another thread with the same question asked here: http://www.mynissanleaf.com/viewtopic.p ... 28#p532028. The capacity the battery can hold hasn't changed but it should provide more usable range by recalibrating the low warnings to supposedly a more accurate level.
2014 S - 6000 km Jan 2016; 45000 km May 2017 95% SoH; 68,000 km Mar 2018 90% SoH

lorenfb
Posts: 2272
Joined: Tue Dec 17, 2013 10:53 pm
Delivery Date: 22 Nov 2013
Leaf Number: 416635
Location: SoCal

Re: My 2016 30KWh experiencee

Mon Jul 16, 2018 10:03 am

dwl wrote:Many pages in another thread with the same question asked here: http://www.mynissanleaf.com/viewtopic.p ... 28#p532028. The capacity the battery can hold hasn't changed but it should provide more usable range by recalibrating the low warnings to supposedly a more accurate level.
"supposedly a more accurate level"
Sure! And "found" a missing 14 Ahrs, right? But Hx remained unchanged? New battery physics from Nissan?
#1 Leaf SL MY 9/13: 74K miles, 48 Ahrs, 5.2 miles/kWh (average), Hx=70, SOH=78, L2 - 100% > 1000, temp < 95F, (DOD) > 20 Ahrs
#2 Leaf SL MY 12/18: 4.5K miles, 115 Ahrs, 5.5 miles/kWh (average), Hx=98, SOH=99, DOD > 20%, temp < 105F

SageBrush
Posts: 4907
Joined: Sun Mar 06, 2011 2:28 am
Delivery Date: 13 Feb 2017
Location: NM

Re: My 2016 30KWh experiencee

Mon Jul 16, 2018 11:41 am

OP: most of us are skeptical of the update, but that is neither here or there.
If you want to know your battery capacity, drive it down to the VLB warning and then charge to full at a station that tells you how many kWh were delivered. Figure about 12.5% +/- 1% charging losses from the meter to the battery.

My home EVSE does not have this option so I use a public ChargePoint.
Second, while it does not really affect you as a lease, knowing the lowest cell voltage at VLB after the update is of interest to people who own the car since it may affect battery aging.
Third, it may be that the LEAF requires a few weeks (months ?) to recalibrate until the LeafSpy readings are accurate.
2013 LEAF 'S' Model with QC & rear-view camera
Bought off-lease Jan 2017 from N. California
Two years in Colorado, now in NM
03/2018: 58 Ahr, 28k miles
11/2018: 56.16 Ahr, 30k miles
-----
2018 Tesla Model 3 LR, Delivered 6/2018

SageBrush
Posts: 4907
Joined: Sun Mar 06, 2011 2:28 am
Delivery Date: 13 Feb 2017
Location: NM

Re: My 2016 30KWh experiencee

Mon Jul 16, 2018 12:38 pm

lorenfb wrote: Sure! And "found" a missing 14 Ahrs, right? But Hx remained unchanged? New battery physics from Nissan?
I think we agree that pushing cells much below 3.30V is going to accelerate their aging, and in any case no where near 14 Ah exists in the pack between 3.30V and turtle.
2013 LEAF 'S' Model with QC & rear-view camera
Bought off-lease Jan 2017 from N. California
Two years in Colorado, now in NM
03/2018: 58 Ahr, 28k miles
11/2018: 56.16 Ahr, 30k miles
-----
2018 Tesla Model 3 LR, Delivered 6/2018

dwl
Posts: 107
Joined: Tue Jan 05, 2016 5:06 pm
Delivery Date: 08 Jan 2016
Leaf Number: 112097
Location: New Zealand

Re: My 2016 30KWh experiencee

Wed Jul 18, 2018 2:09 pm

lorenfb wrote:
dwl wrote:Many pages in another thread with the same question asked here: http://www.mynissanleaf.com/viewtopic.p ... 28#p532028. The capacity the battery can hold hasn't changed but it should provide more usable range by recalibrating the low warnings to supposedly a more accurate level.
"supposedly a more accurate level"
Sure! And "found" a missing 14 Ahrs, right? But Hx remained unchanged? New battery physics from Nissan?
But what is Hx measuring? I spend several hours last night reviewing the threads on Hx as I was hoping it was another useful measure of health and the conclusion remains that the exact meaning is not known. While SoH can be tied to a field called LBSOH the H field seems to have always been a mystery.

Based on the recharge event method (kWh in from flat) cars could be shown to have more capacity than indicated by the Ah (and hence SoH) reporting. There were definitely calculation errors but only time will tell how well they have been fixed.
2014 S - 6000 km Jan 2016; 45000 km May 2017 95% SoH; 68,000 km Mar 2018 90% SoH

lorenfb
Posts: 2272
Joined: Tue Dec 17, 2013 10:53 pm
Delivery Date: 22 Nov 2013
Leaf Number: 416635
Location: SoCal

Re: My 2016 30KWh experiencee

Wed Jul 18, 2018 5:12 pm

dwl wrote:
lorenfb wrote:
dwl wrote:Many pages in another thread with the same question asked here: http://www.mynissanleaf.com/viewtopic.p ... 28#p532028. The capacity the battery can hold hasn't changed but it should provide more usable range by recalibrating the low warnings to supposedly a more accurate level.
"supposedly a more accurate level"
Sure! And "found" a missing 14 Ahrs, right? But Hx remained unchanged? New battery physics from Nissan?
But what is Hx measuring? I spend several hours last night reviewing the threads on Hx as I was hoping it was another useful measure of health and the conclusion remains that the exact meaning is not known. While SoH can be tied to a field called LBSOH the H field seems to have always been a mystery.

Based on the recharge event method (kWh in from flat) cars could be shown to have more capacity than indicated by the Ah (and hence SoH) reporting. There were definitely calculation errors but only time will tell how well they have been fixed.
Hx is the ratio (in percent) of the present battery conductance in mhos to the original battery conductance when the battery was new.
The conductance of a battery is the inverse of the internal resistance of a battery in ohms or milliohms. The typical the Leaf and the Tesla
MS have about the same internal resistance of about 57 milliohms at about ambient. The internal battery resistance has a negative
temperature coefficient, i.e. the resistance decreases with temperature. Both the present Ahrs and internal resistance of any battery
are key parameters that reflect the state of health of any battery. As the battery ages, the available Ahrs decreases as does its conductance,
i.e. the inverse of the internal resistance which increases. So both the Leaf's SOH and Hx should track each other as the battery degrades.
If one changes significantly and the other doesn't, one needs to question how SOH and/or Hx may have been modified, and why one
remains unchanged while the other has not.

Here're battery data from my Leaf:

11/20/14 -13,700 miles, 76 mohms per LeafDD, 20 Deg, 73% SOC
11/27 -13,800 miles, 67 mohms per LeafDD, 25 deg, 63% SOC
11/30 - 13,900 miles, 56 mohms per LeafDD, 27 deg, 71% SOC
12/2 - 14.100 miles, 55 mohms per LeafDD, 28 deg, 67% SOC
12/16 - 14,500 miles, 89 mohms per LeafDD, 15 deg, 93% SOC
12/27/14 - 14,800 miles, 103 mohms per LeafDD, 11 deg, 24% SOC
3/10 - 17,400 miles, 60 mohms per LeafDD, 30 deg, 73% SOC
3/14 - 17, 550 miles, 56 mohms per LeafDD, 32 deg, 47% SOC
4/14 - 19,100 miles, 59 mohms per LeafDD, 25 deg. 38% SOC
5/4 - 19,989 miles, 64 mohms per LeafDD, 24 deg. 48% SOC
5/15 - 20,400 miles, 73 mohms per LeafDD, 20 deg. 41% SOC
5/22 - 20,700 miles, 58 mohms per LeafDD, 28 deg. 50% SOC
12/10/15 - 28,000 miles, 90 mohms per LeafDD, 19 deg. 92% SOC
4/5 - 32,000 miles, 74 mohms per LeafDD, 24 deg, 55% SOC
5/16 - 33,700 miles,89 mohms per LeafDD, 22 deg, 47% SOC
5/16 - 33.700 miles, 58 mohms per LeafDD, 31 deg, 76% SOC
10/5 - 39,300 miles, 100 mohms per LeafDD, 22 deg, 50% SOC
10/6 - 39,400 miles, 61 mohms per LeafDD, 30 deg, 51% SOC
10/7 - 39,500 miles, 80 mohms per LeafDD, 25 deg, 56% SOC
10/15 - 40,000 miles, 71 mohms per LeafDD, 27 deg, 45% SOC
10/30 - 41,000 miles, 74 mohms per LeafDD, 23 deg, 66% SOC
12/26/16 - 43,000 miles, 110 mohms per LeafDD, 13 deg, 77% SOC
6/10/17 - 49,600 miles, 89 mohms per LeafDD, 19 deg, 70% SOC
4/2/18 - 62,000 miles, 110 mohms per LeafDD, 18 deg, 94% SOC
6/13/18 - 65,000 miles, 84 mohms per LeafDD, 26 deg, 52% SOC
#1 Leaf SL MY 9/13: 74K miles, 48 Ahrs, 5.2 miles/kWh (average), Hx=70, SOH=78, L2 - 100% > 1000, temp < 95F, (DOD) > 20 Ahrs
#2 Leaf SL MY 12/18: 4.5K miles, 115 Ahrs, 5.5 miles/kWh (average), Hx=98, SOH=99, DOD > 20%, temp < 105F

dwl
Posts: 107
Joined: Tue Jan 05, 2016 5:06 pm
Delivery Date: 08 Jan 2016
Leaf Number: 112097
Location: New Zealand

Re: My 2016 30KWh experiencee

Wed Jul 18, 2018 5:42 pm

lorenfb wrote:Hx is the ratio (in percent) of the present battery conductance in mhos to the original battery conductance when the battery was new.
References please. I agree this is the common perception but I can't find any evidence that ties Hx (or Health as it used to be called) to conductance. As a battery degrades the Ah capacity reduces and conductance in ohms rises. Is there any evidence that Hx is actually measuring conductance?
2014 S - 6000 km Jan 2016; 45000 km May 2017 95% SoH; 68,000 km Mar 2018 90% SoH

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