Official Mercedes GLC F-Cell FCPHEV thread

My Nissan Leaf Forum

Help Support My Nissan Leaf Forum:

This site may earn a commission from merchant affiliate links, including eBay, Amazon, and others.

GRA

Well-known member
Joined
Sep 19, 2011
Messages
14,018
Location
East side of San Francisco Bay
Via GCC:
Mercedes-Benz to showcase pre-production version of coming GLC F-Cell fuel cell PHEV at IAA
http://www.greencarcongress.com/2017/09/20170905-glcfcell.html

. . .The GLC F-CELL features a ~9 kWh lithium-ion battery pack combined with a new fuel cell stack. Around 30% more compact than previous stacks, it can be fully housed in the engine compartment for the first time. Too, the cost of the technology has been slashed due largely to a 90% reduction in the amount of platinum used in the stack. The combination of fuel cell and battery system—along with a further developed intelligent operating strategy—will offer a combined range of around 500 km (311 miles) in the NEDC. . . .
500 km/311 miles NEDC strikes me as too low given the competition. 500/311 EPA or WLTP would be okay.
 
Via GCC:
Mercedes-Benz GLC F-CELL goes into preproduction; fuel-cell/battery plug-in hybrid powertrain
http://www.greencarcongress.com/2017/09/20170912-glcfcell.html

Details of the system are in the article (I'm getting an SQL error trying to copy it), but the 271.5 mile NEDC range on H2 seems a bit short. At least in Germany the density of the planned H2 station deployment will make that a minor issue - other areas with lower density of stations will be more problematic. it's certainly less inconvenient for longer trips than the i3 REx, if the H2 stations are available where needed.

Further articles:
Mercedes-Benz GLC F-Cell EQ Power plug-in hydrogen crossover launches at Frankfurt
http://www.greencarreports.com/news...g-in-hydrogen-crossover-launches-at-frankfurt

Mercedes GLC F-Cell: Hydrogen Fuel Meets Plug-In Power
http://insideevs.com/mercedes-glc-f-cell-hydrogen-fuel-meets-plug-in-power/
 
Via GCC:
Producing the Mercedes-Benz GLC F-CELL fuel-cell SUV
http://www.greencarcongress.com/2018/03/20180321-glcfcell.html
Mainly details the production process for the stack, but also mentions that the H2 capacity is 4.4 kg in two tanks, which again strikes me as a bit low albeit less of an issue given rapid refueling, and the battery pack is 13.8kWh total, 9.3kWh usable. The article also says:

  • Further development work is particularly necessary to reduce material costs: Factors in this include the further reduction of sizes and components, and also of the proportion of expensive materials. If we compare our present system with that of the B-Class F-CELL, we have already achieved a great deal—alone by reducing the platinum content by 90%. But we need to go further. Process optimizations in production will also help to lower costs – but this is more a matter of economies of scale.

    —Prof. Dr. Christian Mohrdieck, head of Fuel Cell Drive Development and General Manager of NuCellSys. . . .
The article also mentions that they've increased output by 40% and reduced size by 30% so the stack and related components all fit under the hood, as with the current Clarity. I think we're still at least one and probably two generations of fuel cells away from comparable cost with ICEs.
 
GRA said:
Fort all those waiting for a PHFCEV, here it is.
With 7.4kW on board charger and 32 NEDC miles of range, it wouldn't be totally useless outside California. 20 EPA miles of range might handle my old commute, if using the workplace charge stations everyday... Totally rad. Fort it is. Closest hydrogen station is just 590 miles away. If it is working, that is.
 
WetEV said:
GRA said:
Fort all those waiting for a PHFCEV, here it is.
With 7.4kW on board charger and 32 NEDC miles of range, it wouldn't be totally useless outside California. 20 EPA miles of range might handle my old commute, if using the workplace charge stations everyday... Totally rad. Fort it is. Closest hydrogen station is just 590 miles away. If it is working, that is.
As noted in the article,
The market launch will focus above all on major cities which are already comparatively well equipped with hydrogen filling stations: Berlin, Hamburg, Frankfurt, Stuttgart, Munich, Cologne and Düsseldorf. with existing H2 infrastructure.
The same will undoubtedly apply once they bring it here, so CA metro areas and then the northeast as more stations appear there: http://chfcc.org/existing-and-planned-hydrogen-fueling-stations-northeast-us/
 
WetEV said:
GRA said:
Fort all those waiting for a PHFCEV, here it is.
With 7.4kW on board charger and 32 NEDC miles of range, it wouldn't be totally useless outside California. 20 EPA miles of range might handle my old commute, if using the workplace charge stations everyday... Totally rad. Fort it is. Closest hydrogen station is just 590 miles away. If it is working, that is.

Looks like they recognized the error of their ways and increased the battery size to 13.2kwh: http://www.greencarcongress.com/2018/10/20181010-glcfcell.html?utm_source=feedburner&utm_medium=feed&utm_campaign=Feed%3A+greencarcongress%2FTrBK+%28Green+Car+Congress%29

@GRA, I can get behind a FC-PHEV, and not a FCEV, because with a large enough battery, this car can do 90% of its driving on electricity (with minimal transfer losses of going from solar panels, through the inverters, and straight into the battery). The costs to produce enough H2 for that remaining 10% of driving is an acceptable trade-off for fast refueling.

Maybe Toyota and Hyundai can revamp their products to be PHEV's instead? The reduction of the fuel-cell stack size (and thus cooling needs) should go a long way towards providing more space for batteries. If the GLC FCPHEV sells more than either the Mirai or Tucson, then maybe it'll open their eyes.
 
Interesting. This approach would seem to take some of the bite out of the lack of infrastructure. I think the battery needs to be a bit larger so there is more pure EV capability and less dependence on the H2 infrastructure. I can see this being more successful than the Mirai. It will be interesting to see how it actually does when it hits the market. I suspect it will be too pricey. But I thought the same about the Model S and Model X and those do seem to sell.
 
Oils4AsphaultOnly said:
WetEV said:
GRA said:
Fort all those waiting for a PHFCEV, here it is.
With 7.4kW on board charger and 32 NEDC miles of range, it wouldn't be totally useless outside California. 20 EPA miles of range might handle my old commute, if using the workplace charge stations everyday... Totally rad. Fort it is. Closest hydrogen station is just 590 miles away. If it is working, that is.

Looks like they recognized the error of their ways and increased the battery size to 13.2kwh: http://www.greencarcongress.com/2018/10/20181010-glcfcell.html?utm_source=feedburner&utm_medium=feed&utm_campaign=Feed%3A+greencarcongress%2FTrBK+%28Green+Car+Congress%29

@GRA, I can get behind a FC-PHEV, and not a FCEV, because with a large enough battery, this car can do 90% of its driving on electricity (with minimal transfer losses of going from solar panels, through the inverters, and straight into the battery). The costs to produce enough H2 for that remaining 10% of driving is an acceptable trade-off for fast refueling.

Maybe Toyota and Hyundai can revamp their products to be PHEV's instead? The reduction of the fuel-cell stack size (and thus cooling needs) should go a long way towards providing more space for batteries. If the GLC FCPHEV sells more than either the Mirai or Tucson, then maybe it'll open their eyes.
I've been saying for a few years now that for those who can benefit (i.e. have convenient charging for routine use), a PHFCEV combines the best features of the two techs: Battery for local use with max. efficiency, plus the FC for long range/quick refueling and waste heat for winter without hauling around the weight and bulk of a big battery all the time. I do think that we still need one more generation of battery and FC improvements in weight/volume/size for these to be commercially viable, but it's nice to have one available to the public as opposed to the commercial-only PHFCEVs like the Kangoo Z.E.

DarthPuppy said:
I think the battery needs to be a bit larger so there is more pure EV capability and less dependence on the H2 infrastructure. I can see this being more successful than the Mirai. It will be interesting to see how it actually does when it hits the market. I suspect it will be too pricey. But I thought the same about the Model S and Model X and those do seem to sell.
I agree that there will eventually be a need for bigger packs providing a variety of longer battery ranges (say 20/40/60 miles, or whatever increments best meet public desires), but for now they should keep the packs sized so they can be fully charged overnight on L1, making these cars viable with the least hassle and lowest price for the maximum number of customers, including those who live in condos/townhomes/apartments with limited charging facilities.
 
GRA said:
I've been saying for a few years now that for those who can benefit (i.e. have convenient charging for routine use), a PHFCEV combines the best features of the two techs: Battery for local use with max. efficiency, plus the FC for long range/quick refueling and waste heat for winter without hauling around the weight and bulk of a big battery all the time. I do think that we still need one more generation of battery and FC improvements in weight/volume/size for these to be commercially viable, but it's nice to have one available to the public as opposed to the commercial-only PHFCEVs like the Kangoo Z.E.

I don't agree with the "excess bulk" assessment. an FC stack, plus radiator, plus H2 tank occupy space that would've been used by the batteries. there's no benefit there. it's just a trade-off made strictly for the benefit of fast refilling.

the FC-PHEV is just an interim solution for those with that particular need. by the time batteries get to a level you're happy with, they'll be dense enough that a 10%-80% charge will get you 250 miles range in just 15 mins, and in a volume that's smaller than an FC system. that renders FC's pointless by then.
 
IIRC California is spending $2M a refueling station to charge customers $20 a Kg, while Tesla is spending ~ $200k and charging about 4 cents a mile.

Hydrogen FC for cars is so far past brain dead it hurts to be reminded about it.
 
Oils4AsphaultOnly said:
GRA said:
I've been saying for a few years now that for those who can benefit (i.e. have convenient charging for routine use), a PHFCEV combines the best features of the two techs: Battery for local use with max. efficiency, plus the FC for long range/quick refueling and waste heat for winter without hauling around the weight and bulk of a big battery all the time. I do think that we still need one more generation of battery and FC improvements in weight/volume/size for these to be commercially viable, but it's nice to have one available to the public as opposed to the commercial-only PHFCEVs like the Kangoo Z.E.

I don't agree with the "excess bulk" assessment. an FC stack, plus radiator, plus H2 tank occupy space that would've been used by the batteries. there's no benefit there. it's just a trade-off made strictly for the benefit of fast refilling.
There's definitely a weight advantage as the required range goes up owing to the different weight scaling, and that translates to improved efficiency whether running on the battery or FC.

Oils4AsphaultOnly said:
the FC-PHEV is just an interim solution for those with that particular need. by the time batteries get to a level you're happy with, they'll be dense enough that a 10%-80% charge will get you 250 miles range in just 15 mins, and in a volume that's smaller than an FC system. that renders FC's pointless by then.
If that happens I agree, but it hasn't happened yet and we can't count on it. Especially as the vehicles get bigger, the weight and bulk advantage of energy storage via H2 instead of batteries increases, and with the U.S. population moving away from cars and towards bigger, draggier CUVs, that's going to matter.
 
SageBrush said:
IIRC California is spending $2M a refueling station to charge customers $20 a Kg, while Tesla is spending ~ $200k and charging about 4 cents a mile.

Hydrogen is so far past brain dead it hurts to think about it.
Well, no. Some stations are charging $20/kg, and some are charging $9.99: as I pointed out above, there isn't yet a sufficient density of stations to provide price competition. Assume a 30 mpg ICE is the typical competition and California's current avg. price for regular gas is at $3.82 today. An FCEV will get 60 mpkg or better, so while the cheapest H2 is still more expensive per mile than gas, it only takes H2 prices to be about double gas prices for them to be competitive with conventional ICEs. As for the cost of stations, those are dropping per kg. of capacity as the latter increases. Still a ways to go to be competitive, but getting there. And that's enough OT for now.
 
SageBrush said:
"a ways to go"

ROFL !
Having seen PV and wind progress from a much greater 'ways to go' (e.g. $7.50/Wp for retail PV) since I first got involved with them around 1990 when there were plenty of people making similarly negative predictions about them, to where they're now (thanks largely to govt. subsidies in the interim) often out-competing conventional sources without subsidies (<$1/Wp ditto), I'm not going to write H2/FCEVs off for several years yet. While I retain a healthy skepticism about the ultimate commercial success of H2/FCEVs (along with all new, potentially disruptive tech), that doesn't preclude the possibility that they will succeed. Rolling on the floor, you can get dirty.
 
Another plus for the GLC is the fact that it is an SUV form factor that the US consumers seem to be favoring lately. This should help its appeal vs. the Mirai. But again, it is likely to be too pricey being an MB.
 
DarthPuppy said:
Another plus for the GLC is the fact that it is an SUV form factor that the US consumers seem to be favoring lately. This should help its appeal vs. the Mirai. But again, it is likely to be too pricey being an MB.
It will undoubtedly be at the high end of the range, but then so are Tesla's, and anyone whose needs are better matched by a PHFCEV than a BEV (ModelX/i-Pace/e-Tron 55 Quattro) may look to it. Granted, in the U.S. at the moment that's only in parts of California and in the not too distant future the BOS-NY corridor. Other countries like Germany are further along in building H2 infrastructure, and given the choice between a foreign make or a (German) domestic one, the German public will largely opt for the latter. Whether that means the e-Tron 55 or the GLC F-Cell, we'll see; the former can be used by more people out of the gate, but the GLC is smaller and will have better trip range, especially in cold weather.
 
Via GCC:
Market launch of Mercedes-Benz GLC F-Cell fuel cell plug-in hybrid
https://www.greencarcongress.com/2018/11/20181113-mb.html

Mercedes-Benz has handed over the first GLC F-CELL (earlier post) vehicles to selected customers in the German market.

The Mercedes-Benz GLC F-CELL (combined hydrogen consumption: 0.34 kg/100 km, combined CO2 emissions: 0 g/km, combined electrical consumption: 13.7 kWh/100 km) features both fuel cells and a battery drive which can be charged externally using plug-in technology.

Alongside various national and regional ministries as well as the National Organization Hydrogen (NOW) and H2 Mobility, the first customers in the German market also include Deutsche Bahn, the German railways. Further handovers will also be made this year, including to the companies Air Liquide, Shell, Linde AG and also the cities of Stuttgart and Hamburg.

From the spring of 2019, other business as well as private customers will also be able to experience the new fuel cell technology and rent the vehicle via Mercedes-Benz Rent from one of the seven GLC F-CELL outlets throughout Germany. The GLC F-CELL will be available for both short and long-term rental via the Premium Car Rental service from Mercedes-Benz. . . .

. . . the GLC F-CELL achieves around 430 hydrogen-based kilometers (267 miles) in the NEDC cycle; in hybrid mode it additionally delivers up to 51 km (32 miles) on a fully charged battery. At the same time, an output of 155 kW helps to ensure high driving dynamics. . . .
 
Back
Top