Fenix Power - Took money and but never delivered

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tattoogunman said:
As I understand it, and I could be wrong, the Fenix packs will use TMS. However, I do agree with wondering how viable this product will be. Are there really that many people out there with first gen Leafs who would want this? I would imagine most people who can afford a new EV would simply trade and move on to something else. I'm still seriously considering a used Leaf (might be going to look at one or two today) since it's about the only way I will ever be able to get into an EV. Knowing what I know about the car, I would be interested in the Fenix pack since I would invariably be in need of another battery at some point.

It doesn't matter whether the original owner would do this or not. The traded LEAF doesn't just disappear, it becomes someone else's LEAF. That goes for every single EV out there. If there's a good way to keep these older EVs on the road, then people will buy and refurb those cars instead of them going to the crusher. In fact, I think it's safe to say that people who buy new EVs probably WON'T do this, it will be the people who buy them used.
 
webb14leafs said:
I don't see how this business model would attract long term investors. It relies on packs without active thermal management systems. Degradation on packs WITH active management is far too low for this type of model to make sense. With that said, your market is limited maybe a couple hundred thousand nissan leaf owners. This market will ONLY shrink in the future as ALL EVs adopt active management systems, or solid state batteries.

Maybe this model makes more sense for residential and grid scale energy storage, but I certainly would not invest in it.

This guy certainly likes to ruffle feathers... He was probably thrown out of the Tesla forum.. His continued poo pooing of non-active cooling batteries is tiring and old... The benefit of this thread is to keep our (according to him) obsolete "non-cooled" Leafs on the road long-term...

I probably would not invest in this business, but I would welcome this service nationwide for all cars with batteries in them...
 
powersurge said:
webb14leafs said:
I don't see how this business model would attract long term investors. It relies on packs without active thermal management systems. Degradation on packs WITH active management is far too low for this type of model to make sense. With that said, your market is limited maybe a couple hundred thousand nissan leaf owners. This market will ONLY shrink in the future as ALL EVs adopt active management systems, or solid state batteries.

Maybe this model makes more sense for residential and grid scale energy storage, but I certainly would not invest in it.

This guy certainly likes to ruffle feathers... He was probably thrown out of the Tesla forum.. His continued poo pooing of non-active cooling batteries is tiring and old... The benefit of this thread is to keep our (according to him) obsolete "non-cooled" Leafs on the road long-term...

I probably would not invest in this business, but I would welcome this service nationwide for all cars with batteries in them...

I don't intend to ruffle feathers.

I own a 2014 Nissan Leaf, currently with ~80% SOH. I'm a prospective customer. I'm not saying it's a bad idea. I also never said my car or my battery was obsolete. I'm saying that at some point in the future, they will be.

As someone who's interested in the service, I'm putting thought into the likelihood of the company staying around long enough for me to get my moneys worth.

It just seems like too much of a niche market to sustain itself. Hopefully I'm wrong.
 
davewill said:
tattoogunman said:
As I understand it, and I could be wrong, the Fenix packs will use TMS. However, I do agree with wondering how viable this product will be. Are there really that many people out there with first gen Leafs who would want this? I would imagine most people who can afford a new EV would simply trade and move on to something else. I'm still seriously considering a used Leaf (might be going to look at one or two today) since it's about the only way I will ever be able to get into an EV. Knowing what I know about the car, I would be interested in the Fenix pack since I would invariably be in need of another battery at some point.

It doesn't matter whether the original owner would do this or not. The traded LEAF doesn't just disappear, it becomes someone else's LEAF. That goes for every single EV out there. If there's a good way to keep these older EVs on the road, then people will buy and refurb those cars instead of them going to the crusher. In fact, I think it's safe to say that people who buy new EVs probably WON'T do this, it will be the people who buy them used.

I agree 100%. I'm just considering whether this is a sustainable business that won't go bankrupt 2 years after I pay a deposit.

Just want to point out that their market is small and will decrease over time. Cars only last so long, and eventually it won't make sense to pay $150/month to maintain a battery in a car that's falling apart. Could be a viable business in the mean time, but I'm skeptical.
 
davewill said:
tattoogunman said:
As I understand it, and I could be wrong, the Fenix packs will use TMS. However, I do agree with wondering how viable this product will be. Are there really that many people out there with first gen Leafs who would want this? I would imagine most people who can afford a new EV would simply trade and move on to something else. I'm still seriously considering a used Leaf (might be going to look at one or two today) since it's about the only way I will ever be able to get into an EV. Knowing what I know about the car, I would be interested in the Fenix pack since I would invariably be in need of another battery at some point.

It doesn't matter whether the original owner would do this or not. The traded LEAF doesn't just disappear, it becomes someone else's LEAF. That goes for every single EV out there. If there's a good way to keep these older EVs on the road, then people will buy and refurb those cars instead of them going to the crusher. In fact, I think it's safe to say that people who buy new EVs probably WON'T do this, it will be the people who buy them used.

I'm inclined to agree as I'm still looking at the possibility of getting a used Leaf. A used Leaf seems to be about the only way I'll ever be able to enter the EV world since I cannot afford any new EV and many of the other EV models are still relatively expensive for me. I can find a used Leaf in my area for under $10K easy and if I could get a replacement pack at an affordable price, that would sweeten the deal obviously.
 
davewill said:
tattoogunman said:
As I understand it, and I could be wrong, the Fenix packs will use TMS. However, I do agree with wondering how viable this product will be. Are there really that many people out there with first gen Leafs who would want this? I would imagine most people who can afford a new EV would simply trade and move on to something else. I'm still seriously considering a used Leaf (might be going to look at one or two today) since it's about the only way I will ever be able to get into an EV. Knowing what I know about the car, I would be interested in the Fenix pack since I would invariably be in need of another battery at some point.

It doesn't matter whether the original owner would do this or not. The traded LEAF doesn't just disappear, it becomes someone else's LEAF. That goes for every single EV out there. If there's a good way to keep these older EVs on the road, then people will buy and refurb those cars instead of them going to the crusher. In fact, I think it's safe to say that people who buy new EVs probably WON'T do this, it will be the people who buy them used.

I agree, but there will come a time when those used Leafs stop getting circulated among dealers or they are not sent out to auction anymore due to their age, mileage, etc. Right now it's not so much a problem since the vast majority of the used Leafs I see for sale have very low miles, but eventually they just wouldn't be viable used cars to sell at dealerships anymore. Like I've said before, I'm still considering a used Leaf and it's only because I cannot afford any other EV new or used. If I could get a deal on a replacement battery (from Fenix or Nissan), that would obviously make it all the better.
 
tattoogunman said:
davewill said:
tattoogunman said:
As I understand it, and I could be wrong, the Fenix packs will use TMS. However, I do agree with wondering how viable this product will be. Are there really that many people out there with first gen Leafs who would want this? I would imagine most people who can afford a new EV would simply trade and move on to something else. I'm still seriously considering a used Leaf (might be going to look at one or two today) since it's about the only way I will ever be able to get into an EV. Knowing what I know about the car, I would be interested in the Fenix pack since I would invariably be in need of another battery at some point.

It doesn't matter whether the original owner would do this or not. The traded LEAF doesn't just disappear, it becomes someone else's LEAF. That goes for every single EV out there. If there's a good way to keep these older EVs on the road, then people will buy and refurb those cars instead of them going to the crusher. In fact, I think it's safe to say that people who buy new EVs probably WON'T do this, it will be the people who buy them used.

I'm inclined to agree as I'm still looking at the possibility of getting a used Leaf. A used Leaf seems to be about the only way I'll ever be able to enter the EV world since I cannot afford any new EV and many of the other EV models are still relatively expensive for me. I can find a used Leaf in my area for under $10K easy and if I could get a replacement pack at an affordable price, that would sweeten the deal obviously.

I highly recommend getting a used leaf. For the right situation, such as daily commuting of 50 miles or less, it's a fantastic car at an unbelievably low price. My car will easily provide enough utility for the 5 years of the loan. Once its capacity is down to 40% or so I'll have to make a decision on what to do with it. That's why I'm questioning this model. Will I want to pay a $1500 deposit PLUS some monthly payment that will cost around $7K over 5 years for an 8 year old car that I originally paid $10K for, or will I want to pay ~$15K for another used car with better battery technology, more range, more interior features...
 
webb14leafs said:
I highly recommend getting a used leaf. For the right situation, such as daily commuting of 50 miles or less, it's a fantastic car at an unbelievably low price. My car will easily provide enough utility for the 5 years of the loan. Once its capacity is down to 40% or so I'll have to make a decision on what to do with it. That's why I'm questioning this model. Will I want to pay a $1500 deposit PLUS some monthly payment that will cost around $7K over 5 years for an 8 year old car that I originally paid $10K for, or will I want to pay ~$15K for another used car with better battery technology, more range, more interior features...
That's why I think they HAVE to get larger packs going. If you could end up with a 30 or 40kWh car for that $1500 plus payment, that would make a huge difference in the value calculation (if not for you, then for whoever you unload it to for $2-4k). I truly see no reason why they can't, I think they're just being cautious with making promises.
 
webb14leafs said:
tattoogunman said:
davewill said:
It doesn't matter whether the original owner would do this or not. The traded LEAF doesn't just disappear, it becomes someone else's LEAF. That goes for every single EV out there. If there's a good way to keep these older EVs on the road, then people will buy and refurb those cars instead of them going to the crusher. In fact, I think it's safe to say that people who buy new EVs probably WON'T do this, it will be the people who buy them used.

I'm inclined to agree as I'm still looking at the possibility of getting a used Leaf. A used Leaf seems to be about the only way I'll ever be able to enter the EV world since I cannot afford any new EV and many of the other EV models are still relatively expensive for me. I can find a used Leaf in my area for under $10K easy and if I could get a replacement pack at an affordable price, that would sweeten the deal obviously.

I highly recommend getting a used leaf. For the right situation, such as daily commuting of 50 miles or less, it's a fantastic car at an unbelievably low price. My car will easily provide enough utility for the 5 years of the loan. Once its capacity is down to 40% or so I'll have to make a decision on what to do with it. That's why I'm questioning this model. Will I want to pay a $1500 deposit PLUS some monthly payment that will cost around $7K over 5 years for an 8 year old car that I originally paid $10K for, or will I want to pay ~$15K for another used car with better battery technology, more range, more interior features...

I drive less than 25 miles on any given day, but here has been my biggest issue - I already drive a very economical car (Fiat 500 that I've had for five years) and I easily get anywhere from 34mpg to close to 40mpg in the city depending on my driving (36-38 is the average). I have attempted to buy an EV before (Leaf and Volt). On both occasions, my insurance alone was going to go up enough that it negated any fuel savings I was going to have. I'm at a point now where my insurance rate is better and I would probably end up with a better car payment, so a Leaf would save me some money in the short term (long term is another issue obviously).

I am looking at a 2015 S with around 40K miles on it, so it still has the degradation warranty in place for a bit longer and it is showing full capacity in the pictures posted online (and yes I am aware that doesn't mean a whole lot). I am planning on checking it out in person on Saturday and will run Leaf Spy on it to try and get an idea how good or bad the state of health is on the battery.
 
webeleafowners said:
Talking to a few other leaf owners, a couple of them felt a 12 or 15 KWh addition in the trunk would interest them as they love their leafs but would like an extra 60 km of range. Curious if Fenix has considered this market.

Yes, we do have plans for a variety of expansion methods, including the use of trunk and under-trunk space. We're starting with pack replacement, and then growing the products and solutions from there. Earlier in the evolution of the business we investigated doing only a trunk expansion product but have found that to get the most benefit, replacing the stock pack first, then working on expansion made more sense as we would be able to replace the stock BMS entirely, easing the expansion possibilities. To try to make expansion work in concert with the stock pack has it's own challenges.
 
webb14leafs said:
I don't see how this business model would attract long term investors. It relies on packs without active thermal management systems. Degradation on packs WITH active management is far too low for this type of model to make sense. With that said, your market is limited maybe a couple hundred thousand nissan leaf owners. This market will ONLY shrink in the future as ALL EVs adopt active management systems, or solid state batteries.

Maybe this model makes more sense for residential and grid scale energy storage, but I certainly would not invest in it.

The Leaf solution is definitely a market with an expiration date, we're quite aware of that. And yes other EVs do include thermal management, however, there are a few other things they all come with: An expiring warranty, a high battery replacement cost, and a manufacturer who likely won't offer an upgrade path. We will be developing products for both EVs that are past warranty, and offering our components available Ala Carte for custom EV shops and conversions as well.

And yes, we are already in discussions with investors interested in residential and commercial storage using this same model along with a number of other storage markets not mentioned here. To make this solution sustainable, we have to serve a portfolio of markets and are actively developing those efforts already.
 
davewill said:
tattoogunman said:
As I understand it, and I could be wrong, the Fenix packs will use TMS. However, I do agree with wondering how viable this product will be. Are there really that many people out there with first gen Leafs who would want this? I would imagine most people who can afford a new EV would simply trade and move on to something else. I'm still seriously considering a used Leaf (might be going to look at one or two today) since it's about the only way I will ever be able to get into an EV. Knowing what I know about the car, I would be interested in the Fenix pack since I would invariably be in need of another battery at some point.

It doesn't matter whether the original owner would do this or not. The traded LEAF doesn't just disappear, it becomes someone else's LEAF. That goes for every single EV out there. If there's a good way to keep these older EVs on the road, then people will buy and refurb those cars instead of them going to the crusher. In fact, I think it's safe to say that people who buy new EVs probably WON'T do this, it will be the people who buy them used.

Dave that is exactly right, we're going after vehicles past warrant, first with the LEAF then others. We do have the intention to try to get manufacturers to offer our system as an option or standard with a new car as we believe that decoupling the battery cost from the purchase can make an EV not only cost competitive with ICE, but likely even under-cut them in price. But that's down the road, for now, we focus on keeping past-warranty EVs on the road longer, and affordably.
 
webb14leafs said:
powersurge said:
webb14leafs said:
I don't see how this business model would attract long term investors. It relies on packs without active thermal management systems. Degradation on packs WITH active management is far too low for this type of model to make sense. With that said, your market is limited maybe a couple hundred thousand nissan leaf owners. This market will ONLY shrink in the future as ALL EVs adopt active management systems, or solid state batteries.

Maybe this model makes more sense for residential and grid scale energy storage, but I certainly would not invest in it.

This guy certainly likes to ruffle feathers... He was probably thrown out of the Tesla forum.. His continued poo pooing of non-active cooling batteries is tiring and old... The benefit of this thread is to keep our (according to him) obsolete "non-cooled" Leafs on the road long-term...

I probably would not invest in this business, but I would welcome this service nationwide for all cars with batteries in them...

I don't intend to ruffle feathers.

I own a 2014 Nissan Leaf, currently with ~80% SOH. I'm a prospective customer. I'm not saying it's a bad idea. I also never said my car or my battery was obsolete. I'm saying that at some point in the future, they will be.

As someone who's interested in the service, I'm putting thought into the likelihood of the company staying around long enough for me to get my moneys worth.

It just seems like too much of a niche market to sustain itself. Hopefully I'm wrong.


Well you didn't ruffle my feathers, in fact quite the opposite. We're looking for as much customer feedback as we can get at this stage, as learning from them AFTER we're in production gets quite a bit more expensive. Stay skeptical, ask tough questions, and hopefully when you're ready, we'll be able to show you that we're ready and driven for the long haul with you as well. Thanks for the feedback!
 
webb14leafs said:
I agree 100%. I'm just considering whether this is a sustainable business that won't go bankrupt 2 years after I pay a deposit.

Of course, this is where i'm supposed to promise that we'll be here for you always and forever, you're absolutely right that there is some risk at this stage. If I was able to predict the future like that, I'd have retired years ago! Instead, I'll tell you a bit more about the tech, so you can make an informed judgement and weigh your options better.

We're designing both the backend and the pack/modules to work in concert and operate more like Netflix than a VHS tape, but we have heard, for years now, from customers who simply want to buy the battery and not be tied to a subscription. So the hardware is designed with that in mind. If the pack loses connectivity with the service, it doesn't stop working. We're designing the data connection to primarily just be a feed of statistical data back to our service. We can't replace a module "in the cloud", that's a physical change, so we're making the pack easy to remove modules, replace them, and yes, even to service the module itself. We will be using cylindrical cells, and assuming Fenix does go bankrupt, a motivated DIY individual will be able to open the modules, test and replace the cells themselves if they needed to. You may lost us, but you'll be able to keep your LEAF on the road without us if need be.
 
JohnBysinger said:
webb14leafs said:
I agree 100%. I'm just considering whether this is a sustainable business that won't go bankrupt 2 years after I pay a deposit.

Of course, this is where i'm supposed to promise that we'll be here for you always and forever, you're absolutely right that there is some risk at this stage. If I was able to predict the future like that, I'd have retired years ago! Instead, I'll tell you a bit more about the tech, so you can make an informed judgement and weigh your options better.

We're designing both the backend and the pack/modules to work in concert and operate more like Netflix than a VHS tape, but we have heard, for years now, from customers who simply want to buy the battery and not be tied to a subscription. So the hardware is designed with that in mind. If the pack loses connectivity with the service, it doesn't stop working. We're designing the data connection to primarily just be a feed of statistical data back to our service. We can't replace a module "in the cloud", that's a physical change, so we're making the pack easy to remove modules, replace them, and yes, even to service the module itself. We will be using cylindrical cells, and assuming Fenix does go bankrupt, a motivated DIY individual will be able to open the modules, test and replace the cells themselves if they needed to. You may lost us, but you'll be able to keep your LEAF on the road without us if need be.

Thank you for your responsiveness John. Your business is intriguing, but the cost seems excessive. Is it possible for the cost to go down as your business scales?

Over a 5 year period, the cost of a deposit plus monthly "premiums" is equivalent to a new battery pack (24kWhr), but over that time you will certainly not have provided an equivalent number of cells. You will have likely replaced anywhere from 20% to 50% of the individual cells. Finding enough car owners who 1 - Need or desire 100% of the original capacity for the entire period they own it, and 2 - Are willing to offset their fuel cost savings with a battery "subscription" service seems unlikely.

I wish you luck, but as an avid investor in new and emerging technologies and services, I'm lost. What am I missing.

I'm wondering if you see this as just the tip of the iceberg, and you are really just getting your foot in the door of what's to come. V2G, Micro-Grids, Energy Storage...
 
JohnBysinger said:
webb14leafs said:
powersurge said:
This guy certainly likes to ruffle feathers... He was probably thrown out of the Tesla forum.. His continued poo pooing of non-active cooling batteries is tiring and old... The benefit of this thread is to keep our (according to him) obsolete "non-cooled" Leafs on the road long-term...

I probably would not invest in this business, but I would welcome this service nationwide for all cars with batteries in them...

I don't intend to ruffle feathers.

I own a 2014 Nissan Leaf, currently with ~80% SOH. I'm a prospective customer. I'm not saying it's a bad idea. I also never said my car or my battery was obsolete. I'm saying that at some point in the future, they will be.

As someone who's interested in the service, I'm putting thought into the likelihood of the company staying around long enough for me to get my moneys worth.

It just seems like too much of a niche market to sustain itself. Hopefully I'm wrong.


Well you didn't ruffle my feathers, in fact quite the opposite. We're looking for as much customer feedback as we can get at this stage, as learning from them AFTER we're in production gets quite a bit more expensive. Stay skeptical, ask tough questions, and hopefully when you're ready, we'll be able to show you that we're ready and driven for the long haul with you as well. Thanks for the feedback!

John,

Sorry to bug you so much, but I am really interested in this service. Not so much for what it is now, but what it could be in the future.
The cost of thermal battery management exceeds the monetary value of the avoided degradation. Replacing this initial cost with a “service” cost for ALL battery powered cars would be a real value. Assuming battery costs get to ~$100/kWhr, or lower, and the average passively managed battery loses 1-2kWhr of capacity per year, this becomes an affordable, viable and scalable solution.

Tesla could stop spending $3K-$7K (depending on what you read) on their battery cooling mechanism and off-load this cost to customers who are already accustomed to paying >$100/year on routine maintenance. Topping off your battery capacity could be the equivalent of swapping out your engine coolant or transmission fluid.

We are entering a battery powered world and those batteries will need to be maintained.
 
I'm also interested in the fact that so many of the EV owners that I talk to actually think they will be keeping their cars indefinitely, something I don't hear very often from other groups. That's not a jab at anyone, but given the kind of money we are talking about (in addition to mechanical issues obviously), it would just seem that trying to do this in the long run is going to cost more money than it's worth to keep the cars. If a lease option was available up front at the time of purchase (similar to what Renault offers on the Zoe), I think it would make much more sense. But again, seeing as how I may be picking up a Leaf this weekend, I am interested in seeing 3rd party companies stepping up to help out the EV community if the OEM abandons customers.
 
tattoogunman said:
I'm also interested in the fact that so many of the EV owners that I talk to actually think they will be keeping their cars indefinitely, something I don't hear very often from other groups. That's not a jab at anyone, but given the kind of money we are talking about (in addition to mechanical issues obviously), it would just seem that trying to do this in the long run is going to cost more money than it's worth to keep the cars. If a lease option was available up front at the time of purchase (similar to what Renault offers on the Zoe), I think it would make much more sense. But again, seeing as how I may be picking up a Leaf this weekend, I am interested in seeing 3rd party companies stepping up to help out the EV community if the OEM abandons customers.


I agree, and it seems like auto companies should think about manufacturing cars so that individual cells can be easily swapped and dropped. The cost of "lease" programs does not make sense on a cost/kWhr basis, but that's probably because the labor involved with getting to the pack is very high.
 
webb14leafs said:
tattoogunman said:
I'm also interested in the fact that so many of the EV owners that I talk to actually think they will be keeping their cars indefinitely, something I don't hear very often from other groups. That's not a jab at anyone, but given the kind of money we are talking about (in addition to mechanical issues obviously), it would just seem that trying to do this in the long run is going to cost more money than it's worth to keep the cars. If a lease option was available up front at the time of purchase (similar to what Renault offers on the Zoe), I think it would make much more sense. But again, seeing as how I may be picking up a Leaf this weekend, I am interested in seeing 3rd party companies stepping up to help out the EV community if the OEM abandons customers.


I agree, and it seems like auto companies should think about manufacturing cars so that individual cells can be easily swapped and dropped. The cost of "lease" programs does not make sense on a cost/kWhr basis, but that's probably because the labor involved with getting to the pack is very high.

I think it's more from a peace of mind perspective and it also reduces the initial purchase price of the vehicle. So for example, that $30K Leaf S is now $21,500 without you actually buying the pack and then you make a lease payment for the pack, etc. When/if the pack goes bad, you take it back to the dealer and have it swapped out no questions asked. That way you are not on the hook for an $8500 replacement battery, etc. I guess it just depends on what each individual purchaser wants to do you know?
 
I think that the main problem is that the EV companies need to have an "open sourced" battery design so that owners can have the batteries replaced as a maintenance item. Not have batteries with computers and serial numbers that must be married to the car only by Nissan.

Most battery powered appliances (except Apple) allow people to replace the batteries easily. We need to lobby to have this made into the designs of new cars... Its like saying that Nissan cars can only run on Nissan gasoline available ONLY at Nissan dealers... Ridiculous..
 
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