All "Future" battery technology thread

My Nissan Leaf Forum

Help Support My Nissan Leaf Forum:

This site may earn a commission from merchant affiliate links, including eBay, Amazon, and others.
I remember talk about zinc-air and aluminum-air batteries in the Nineties, including a test of a Civic converted to aluminum-air, with a smaller NiCad pack for acceleration, and a bus with removable cells that could be replaced individually.
 
Via IEVS:
Renault-Nissan-Mitsubishi Invest In 5-Minute Battery Charge Startup Enevate
https://insideevs.com/renault-nissan-mitsubishi-invest-enevate/

. . . The Renault-Nissan-Mitsubishi Alliance is just another high-profile investor – right after LG Chem in October – which makes us think that Enevate really has something feasible in the works.

Enevate promises that its silicon-dominant lithium-ion cells combines several advantages:

  • extreme fast-charging capabilities (can be charged to 75% capacity in five minutes)
    high energy density for long-range EVs (around 250-300 Wh/kg)
    can also safely charge and discharge down to -40°C and capture more energy during regenerative braking
    low cost
    improved safety. . . .
We'll see if this proves to be another Envia, or if they can actually deliver. Li-Si is the forecast next step beyond Li-ion, on the way to Li-S, Li-metal, Li-air and/or solid-state batteries.
 
From what I can see it's nothing that special. Their non production cells are claimed to have 300wh/kg which is just slightly above Tesla's current production NCA cells. Fast charging is questionable.
 
I'm glad they are working on lots of potential batteries - that's how we eventually find the next big thing.

That said, I think this work is addressing the wrong problem. I'm convinced that the #1 issue with current batteries is price. Think about it - if we could get Tesla's 100kWh battery for $100/kWh, that's $10k. That $10k battery could provide 250-300 miles of range for a typical mid-sized SUV like a CR-V or Rav4. As Tesla drivers have discovered, charging for 30 minutes every 3 hours of driving is more than acceptable.
 
Energy density still needs to be improved. 100kWh pack would not fit in a RAV4 and would weigh too much. Model 3 has a longer wheelbase than a RAV4 and can only fit a 75-80kWh pack.
 
You could simply stack the batteries and make them taller. It may cut a little into the clearance under the car, but your typical Rav4 is never driven off road so it really doesn't matter.
 
That still doesn't address the weight issue, and I for one do take my RAV off road. Not to mention one reason batteries become cheaper is because increased energy density means less actual material is needed per kWh, so it's unlikely to see significant price drops without increased energy density.
 
I disagree that weight is a show stopper. I’m not saying it cannot or should not be improved. Just that it is not the main impediment for most people.

You are in the minority if you take a RAV4 off road. It’s not rate per se but definitely not the majority. And we don’t need EVs to serve every case, we need them to be compelling enough to make up a higher percentage of sales.
 
Nothing is a show stopper, not even cost. You could make an overly priced, low ground clearance, excessively heavy, 100kWh, RAV4 vehicle right now. Dropping cost only removes one of the problems. Model X has an 8 inch ground clearance, a double layer pack as you propose would cut that about in half and leave an unacceptable 4 inch clearance even for average use. Plus the added weight means heavier frame parts and suspension parts so it's an additive effect, which also drives up costs.
Next year Tesla will come out with the Model Y probably using the same pack as the Model 3 so 75-80kWh. Tesla is probably near $120/kWh so that would be a $9,600 pack. Even at $100/kWh they won't suddenly be able to fit a 100kWh pack without improvements in energy density or without significantly compromising the vehicle.
 
Yes, but if you really want the larger battery, you will make due. If you want a 100KWH battery, then make the cars a little stronger, and make it mostly a 2-seater with room for storage..
 
Why would anyone do that when Tesla already makes full sized vehicles with 100kwh packs?
 
GCC:
Ford partnering with Solid Power to develop solid-state batteries for next-gen EVs
https://www.greencarcongress.com/2019/04/20190411-solidpower.html

. . . Solid Power’s solid-state technology combines a cathode, metallic lithium anode, and a safe, inorganic solid electrolyte layer. Solid-state batteries offer improved energy and safety as compared to current industry-standard lithium-ion batteries.

This partnership will heavily leverage Solid Power’s first fully automated, roll-to-roll production facility, which is anticipated to be fully operational in Q2 2019. . . .

Potential benefits of Solid Power’s ASSBs include:

  • Fifty percent higher energy vs. current state-of-the-art (SOTA) lithium-ion, which can increase at the module- and pack-level due to design simplicity.

    Substantially improved safety due to the elimination of the flammable liquid electrolyte as used in lithium-ion.

    Low-cost battery-pack designs through minimization of safety features and simplified thermal management.

    High manufacturability due to significant compatibility with automated, industry-standard, roll-to-roll production. . . .
There's a comparison chart. Biggest issue I see is the minimum operating temp, only 0 deg. C for these batteries (but 150 deg. C max). They claim -20 - +60C for current Li-ion, although most I'm aware of are -30C.
 
ABG:
Toyota says it’s on track to produce solid-state batteries by 2025

It had planned to showcase them at the 2020 Tokyo Summer Olympics, which were postponed


https://www.autoblog.com/2020/07/28/toyota-solid-state-batteries-2025/


Toyota has developed a working prototype of its long-promised solid-state batteries that are operating in running concept vehicles, and the company remains on track for limited production of them by 2025. . . .

Solid-state batteries, which replace liquid electrolyte with a solid, are seen by some as the “holy grail” of electric vehicle technology. They have the potential for higher energy density and range, greater safety, faster recharging and longer lifespan, in addition to being less prone to problems with extreme temperatures. But the technology presents many challenges, some of which Kaita discussed. Toyota has been talking about solid-state batteries for at least a decade, but appears to have backed off some of its earlier, ambitious goals. Its current goal is reportedly to develop a battery that hangs on to more than 90% of its original performance over as long as 30 years.

According to AN, Toyota has developed prototype cells shaped like plates that are about the size and thickness of a thin spiral notebook, sealed in pouches and arranged in modules. It’s using a sulfur-based electrolyte that appears to more efficiently transfer lithium ions between negative and positive electrodes, and charging from zero to full takes less than 15 minutes. But one of the challenges is reportedly developing an electrolyte that can be densely compacted while remaining flexible, all without negatively affecting battery performance over time. One other challenge: how to manufacture the cells in an ultra-dry environment in high volumes. . . .
 
LeftieBiker said:
One other challenge: how to manufacture the cells in an ultra-dry environment in high volumes. .


Maybe they should visit a lithium battery factory...


I presume that the requirements are considerably more stringent. Toyota has plenty of engineering talent and know how, so if the answer were as obvious as you suggest, I think they would have figured that out already.

It's not as if they have no experience with Li-ion batteries - the Prius and RAV4 Primes both use them, as did the PiP. The PiP used Panasonic cells. I've been unable to find who supplies the cells for the current PHEVs. I presume Toyota designed the packs.
 
GCR:
Battery supplier SKI: 500 miles of range with 20 minutes of fast-charging, ready in 2021

https://www.greencarreports.com/new...ith-20-minutes-of-fast-charging-ready-in-2021


The South Korean supplier SK Innovation revealed Thursday that it’s developing cells that will only need two quick 10-minute charges to cover more than 500 miles of range when installed in an EV.

SKI said that it expects to complete the development of the new cells by the first half of next year—or as soon as the end of the year—after which they “can play a significant role in the spread of EVs,” the company said in an accompanying press release. . . .

For SKI's near-future tech, EVs might be able to pack a more modest cell capacity—in a small-car footprint, for instance—and still be able to do long-distance road trips with a minimum of break time for charging.

The supplier says that it has decided to focus its development efforts on “long-life batteries that enable long-range driving,” and early this year revealed a new “SK Inside” branding strategy aiming for more awareness. . . .
 
Another meaningless announcement. "500 miles" in Korea is not EPA so that needs to be de-rated, probably closer to 400 miles, and the wording "500 miles with 2 charges" is purposely misleading to make it seem as if it has 500 miles of range when it's really closer to 200 miles on a charge. This is a nothing burger.
 
JRP3 said:
Another meaningless announcement. "500 miles" in Korea is not EPA so that needs to be de-rated, probably closer to 400 miles, and the wording "500 miles with 2 charges" is purposely misleading to make it seem as if it has 500 miles of range when it's really closer to 200 miles on a charge. This is a nothing burger.
My impression from the blurb is that SKI is focusing on charge rate, stating 25 miles of range per minute of charging. That sounds super impressive although more details are needed to really know what they have achieved. I presume the advert sleight of hand describing two charge sessions is a reflection of the slower speeds after ~ 50% SoC so the advert is saying charge speeds at low SoC.

For now, the tabless cell Tesla approach which relies on heat removal is reaching 15+ EPA miles per minute of added range from 5 - 60% SoC is a lot more credible and does not introduce any unwanted side-effects into the battery chemistry.
 
GCR:
QuantumScape battery tech: A fast-charging electric-car game-changer?

https://www.greencarreports.com/new...ech-a-fast-charging-electric-car-game-changer


Volkswagen-backed startup QuantumScape on Tuesday revealed new data showing the capabilities of its solid-state battery tech.

Several companies are working to develop solid-state batteries, which use a solid electrolyte instead of the liquid or gel used in current lithium-ion battery cells. But QuantumScape claims to be ahead of competitors in developing solid-state cells that can handle the rigors of automotive use.

In testing, large-area, single-layer, pouch cells were able to charge to 80% capacity in 15 minutes, the company said. They also showed a retained capacity greater than 80% after 800 charging cycles—a lifespan unmatched by competitors, the company claims.

Cells have also been tested to -30 degrees Celsius, a temperature too low for other solid-state chemistries to operate, the company said.

With these lifespan and temperature barriers broken, QuantumScape executives now believe solid-state batteries can replace lithium-ion batteries in electric cars.

“Lithium-ion provided an important stepping stone to power the first generation of EVs," QuantumScape CEO Jagdeep Singh said in a statement. "We believe QuantumScape’s lithium-metal solid-state battery technology opens the automotive industry up to the next generation battery and creates a foundation for the transition to a more fully electrified automotive fleet.”

Among the claimed advantages of solid-state batteries are energy density—QuantumScape said its batteries will offer 80% greater range than comparable lithium-ion batteries—and a very wide range at which peak fast-charging power is allowed, which could reduce charging times. . . .

QuantumScape, which counts former Tesla CTO and battery mastermind JB Straubel as a member of its board, announced plans to go public in September and it's now traded on NYSE. . . .


We'll see. Li-metal and solid-state techs are each big steps in next-gen battery development, and this appears to include both. However, announcements are a dime a dozen.
 
This is one of the few companies that has real credibility. I watched their presentation which included Dr. Stanley Whittingham and Venkat Vishwanathan plus JB Straubel and was impressed. I bought into the stock before the merger with Kensington and sold most of it since I think it's over hyped in the short term since they won't have a product for years.
 
Back
Top