Details on Nissan Leaf battery pack, charge rates, lifespan

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Rat said:
I typically drive < 5 mi. before noon and then the car sits all day and all night. I would think that I could charge off 110V house current just fine, but the question of how that affects battery life was not addressed in this info. It's still not clear to me whether this approach is permitted, practical, or financially wise. I have 220 in my garage now, so it probably wouldn't be all that expensive to put in the charger, and I have to believe that there would be times I need to charge faster than 18 hours.

I'll also be using the Level 1 cable as the primary connection to the grid. As for how it might effect battery life - slower is better for any battery. We'll certainly not degrade the battery at all because of charging more slowly.
 
A typical home 120v socket might be on a 15 amp, or possibly a 20-amp breaker.

Drawing 16 amps from a 15-amp breaker will probably "pop" it.

Yes, I agree, it should be near 5 "mech" for 120v, not 4:
I was guessing, with overhead, and only drawing the "legal" 12 amps (80% for a continuous load) from a 15-amp breaker (1.4 kW), about 1.2 kW to fill 24 kWh => 20 hours (5 MECH).
 
u must use a breaker connected to a GFCI which by law is rated at 20 Amps with 15 amp pass thru and can withstand a current of 16 amps easily as i have done for over 2½ years.

this is the only type of 110 circuit allowed for garage or outside use. plugging your car into an inside wall socket is HIGHLY discouraged as those 15 amp circuits normally trip if a current as much as 10 amps is drawn
 
Estimating the distance "home" is relatively easy, especially with the GPS.
Estimating the necessary charge time is more difficult.

Being able to set the charging-completion for "miles-to-go" instead of just "time" (or "full") would seem helpful.

With experience, LEAF drivers will learn how "their miles" (including conditions and driving style) compare to the LEAF's "LA4" miles, and the "miles remaining" indicated by the LEAF's instruments.

Then, estimating the extra range gained by driving very slowly, one can decide to try to make it home, or "commit" to a charging (that might even require a substantial wait even before charging) ... that could be enough out of the way that one "for sure" needs at least a "short" charge to make it home.

Charging more than is needed to get home easily will usually be a waste of time, though free e-fuel (if that is available) might be attractive to some.

For some, with "short" trips, the charging will not be an issue. For others, operating near the real-life range limits, discovering and using suitable, available e-fuel locations will become a new skill.
 
Rat said:
Well, somewhere earlier in another thread was the question as to whether we could dispense with the charger altogether if we can suffice with the trickle charge. At that time I thought Nissan was requiring the charger to be installed as a qualifier to reserve, but now it looks like that might only be for the EV Project. I typically drive < 5 mi. before noon and then the car sits all day and all night. I would think that I could charge off 110V house current just fine, but the question of how that affects battery life was not addressed in this info. It's still not clear to me whether this approach is permitted, practical, or financially wise. I have 220 in my garage now, so it probably wouldn't be all that expensive to put in the charger, and I have to believe that there would be times I need to charge faster than 18 hours.
Rat if you only drive 10 miles a day I would say you don't need to buy a leaf because an electric car is worth more if you drive a lot of mile. Because the cost or future cost of gas. I drive just under 80 miles to work and back and will save about $1,500 a year at current gas prices.
 
If one needs a 120v charge, a GFI-protected socket is not always available.

Likewise, it is often difficult (or impossible) to determine if a particular "home" socket is on a 20-amp breaker, or 15-amp.

Although 16 amps from a 20-amp breaker is allowed, it would "trip" most 15-amp breakers.

So, the "included" 120v EVSE might be "set" to tell the car "12 amps max.", not 16. Or, there might be a user-setting on the EVSE (or in the car) to select the 12/16 current-draw setting?

The EVSE is also supposed to contain a "GFI" type function, I believe.
 
Buying a "new" car is only rarely a fuel-cost issue.

With the EV being low noise, no gas and oil smell, essentially no service, no local pollution, etc. ... all these can easily overshadow the simple cost-of-fuel issue.
 
garygid said:
If one needs a 120v charge, a GFI-protected socket is not always available.

Likewise, it is often difficult (or impossible) to determine if a particular "home" socket is on a 20-amp breaker, or 15-amp.

Although 16 amps from a 20-amp breaker is allowed, it would "trip" most 15-amp breakers.

So, the "included" 120v EVSE might be "set" to tell the car "12 amps max.", not 16. Or, there might be a user-setting on the EVSE (or in the car) to select the 12/16 current-draw setting?

The EVSE is also supposed to contain a "GFI" type function, I believe.
I believe over with the "other" car, GM has stated there is a setting at the connector on the 120v pluggable cable they will provide with the Volt. I would rather expect to see the same thing on the one Nissan gives us. (It might even come from the same company!)

Yes, ground fault interruption is required by code to be embedded in 120v EVSE pluggable cable. But DaveinOlyWA may still have an important point. I didn't realize that all garage and outdoor circuits had to be 20A and GFCI. If so, there might be less call for running on 15A than we thought, especially since it appears that use of extension cords is not legal.

But there still would be the issue of sharing a 20A garage circuit with tools in the garage. Wanta use your Skilsaw while your wife is sanding a dresser the easy way and the Leaf is charging? (OK, so I haven't seen a real Skilsaw for decades, but you know what I mean - a plug-in portable rotary saw.)
 
on the "ChargePoint" (Coulomb) 120V "charger" they make (unlocks a door to reveal the outlet, and is remotly controllable/and has remote reporting), they specify do NOT use a GFCI circuit, as it will interfere with the built in circuitry on their device, they handle the ground fault detection (and resetting), so they don't want another device ahead of it that could trip and cause them to lose power.
 
planet4ever said:
I believe over with the "other" car, GM has stated there is a setting at the connector on the 120v pluggable cable they will provide with the Volt. I would rather expect to see the same thing on the one Nissan gives us. (It might even come from the same company!)
Hmmm ... it would make sense the answer to the following is yes: is the "other" car's and the LEAF's 120V EVSE fully-interchangeable ? Making it a "commodity" item ... ripe for third-party market offering other "features" ?

Somewhat related: using the 120V EVSE ... is it still possible to pre-heat and -cool the car while it's plugged in ? ( On the Tesla it appears that compressor-cooling of the battery pack does not happen on 120V. )
 
LEAFer said:
planet4ever said:
I believe over with the "other" car, GM has stated there is a setting at the connector on the 120v pluggable cable they will provide with the Volt. I would rather expect to see the same thing on the one Nissan gives us. (It might even come from the same company!)
Hmmm ... it would make sense the answer to the following is yes: is the "other" car's and the LEAF's 120V EVSE fully-interchangeable ? Making it a "commodity" item ... ripe for third-party market offering other "features" ?

Somewhat related: using the 120V EVSE ... is it still possible to pre-heat and -cool the car while it's plugged in ? ( On the Tesla it appears that compressor-cooling of the battery pack does not happen on 120V. )

I would think so, but it might run the main pack down a bit, as it's getting much less amperage, still it will be better than the car not connected at all and pre-warming/cooling.

and, I bet there are only 1 or 2 Japanese companies making these 120V L1 EVSE's, and I bet they will all look the same, and are interchangable as well, since it's a standard. Bet the Leaf, Volt and Plug-in Prius, could use each others with no problem...
 
i built my own house back in the early 90's and code for all electrical sockets that can come in contact with water says they must be GFCI or be connected to one (you can generally have up to 5 outlets on a single GFCI connection) that means all laundry, kitchen, bathroom, garage and outdoor sockets.
 
LEAFer said:
Hmmm ... it would make sense the answer to the following is yes: is the "other" car's and the LEAF's 120V EVSE fully-interchangeable ? Making it a "commodity" item ... ripe for third-party market offering other "features"?
Yes, fully interchangeable. The connector at the car meets the SAE J1772 standard. It's not only the same for all (or nearly all) new pluggable vehicles coming out, it's also exactly the same connector for 120v and 240v. The EVSE logic between that connector and the wall - no matter how it connects to the wall - communicates with the car to agree on a voltage and amperage.

As for other features, the standard is likely to restrict those fairly significantly. I would definitely expect some very nice price competition, though. I tend to think of this as a "smart cable", sort of like HDMI cables. Now that those have been around for a while, how many different features can you find built into the cables? There are some nice ones in the devices they connect, but the cables, not so much. Now, how much did you have to pay for HDMI cables when they first came out, and how much do you pay now?
 
planet4ever said:
LEAFer said:
Hmmm ... it would make sense the answer to the following is yes: is the "other" car's and the LEAF's 120V EVSE fully-interchangeable ? Making it a "commodity" item ... ripe for third-party market offering other "features"?
Yes, fully interchangeable. The connector at the car meets the SAE J1772 standard. It's not only the same for all (or nearly all) new pluggable vehicles coming out, it's also exactly the same connector for 120v and 240v. The EVSE logic between that connector and the wall - no matter how it connects to the wall - communicates with the car to agree on a voltage and amperage.

As for other features, the standard is likely to restrict those fairly significantly. I would definitely expect some very nice price competition, though. I tend to think of this as a "smart cable", sort of like HDMI cables. Now that those have been around for a while, how many different features can you find built into the cables? There are some nice ones in the devices they connect, but the cables, not so much. Now, how much did you have to pay for HDMI cables when they first came out, and how much do you pay now?
Does the SAE standard prevent a manufacturer from adding/imbedding proprietary coding whereby the car's charger might reject another manufacturer's EVSE ? (Sorry for the paranoia. Ink jet printer experience, etc).

A feature I was thinking about ... similar to what Kill-A-Watt provides, but directly on the EVSE (integrated LCD)... to verify/supplement/simplify the data in the car as to kWh used/charged.
 
The purpose of a standard practice is to allow interchangeability. The intent voiced by car and EVSE manufacturers is that J1772 be a 'one size fits all' universal charge interface. It's in the best interest of any car company to use the standard charge infrastructure.

For those and other reasons, I don't expect that any car company would benefit from 'spiking' the charge coupler so their owners can't use the available public infrastructure.

For Level 1 charging...in the US we can have 15A and 20A 120V outlets. The first couple of data sheets I've seen for L1 EVSE suggest they'll stay with the lowest common denominator of working correctly with a 15A outlet. I don't expect manufacturers would want the liability hassles of someone trying to draw 20A from a 15A outlet. They have to 'protect us' from the bottom 1%. :(
 
AndyH said:
The purpose of a standard practice is to allow interchangeability. The intent voiced by car and EVSE manufacturers is that J1772 be a 'one size fits all' universal charge interface. It's in the best interest of any car company to use the standard charge infrastructure.

For those and other reasons, I don't expect that any car company would benefit from 'spiking' the charge coupler so their owners can't use the available public infrastructure.

For Level 1 charging...in the US we can have 15A and 20A 120V outlets. The first couple of data sheets I've seen for L1 EVSE suggest they'll stay with the lowest common denominator of working correctly with a 15A outlet. I don't expect manufacturers would want the liability hassles of someone trying to draw 20A from a 15A outlet. They have to 'protect us' from the bottom 1%. :(
I wasn't suggesting that the charge coupler is spiked to the point that you can't charge my car at public EVSE places. I was (paranoidly) worrying whether they could prevent me from using another (different) car's cable with my vehicle.

On Level 1: 20amp breaker=16amp draw. 15amp breaker=12amp draw. But if the coupler offered a feature of allowing pigtails (and being able to tell which one the user attaches), then I could change to a 20A pigtail to fit a 20A receptacle (NEMA 5-20R) to charge 33% faster at 16amps! (If the 5-20R receptacle was legally installed it is assured of having a 20A breaker.)

If the receptacle is only a NEMA 5-15R, then the 5-20P plug won't fit and I'd be forced to use the lower rated pigtail and charge at 12A.

The Tesla "Universal Mobile Connector" is such a "smart" coupler, and offers a variety of Universal Adapters. Click here.
 
LEAFer said:
I wasn't suggesting that the charge coupler is spiked to the point that you can't charge my car at public EVSE places. I was (paranoidly) worrying whether they could prevent me from using another (different) car's cable with my vehicle.

Right - that's what my 'sloppy' spiked comment meant. Sorry.

LEAFer said:
On Level 1: 20amp breaker=16amp draw. 15amp breaker=12amp draw. But if the coupler offered a feature of allowing pigtails (and being able to tell which one the user attaches), then I could change to a 20A pigtail to fit a 20A receptacle (NEMA 5-20R) to charge 33% faster at 16amps! (If the 5-20R receptacle was legally installed it is assured of having a 20A breaker.)

If the receptacle is only a NEMA 5-15R, then the 5-20P plug won't fit and I'd be forced to use the lower rated pigtail and charge at 12A.

The Tesla "Universal Mobile Connector" is such a "smart" coupler, and offers a variety of Universal Adapters. Click here.

The images I've seen of the Nissan and Delphi L1 units suggest they're not equipped with swappable bits or switches. That doesn't mean others might not have them at some point...
 
garygid said:
Another limit will be the maximum charge rate built into the car.

For example: At 120v, the car might only "eat" 12 amps, even if "offered" 15 (or 20) amps.
That would be a shame ... not only should Nissan allow 3rd party mobile connectors, but the (J1772 standardized) signaling from those connectors (saying " I have safely connected to and can feed you 16A ") should be accepted by the car.
 
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