Thoughts on keeping leaf vs upgrading

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My original claim was that the Model 3 rides "rougher" than a Leaf. Now you say:

" Try to understand that the large majority of Model 3 owners think the ride is quiet, refined and compliant while having amazing dynamics..."

Prove it. The actual, non-fanboy reality, based on everything I've read about the car, seems to be that the Model 3 has a very firm ride, and that lots of Model 3 owners like that. You have no idea whatsoever how many of them just tolerate it because they like everything else about the car, and my not having driven one makes zero difference here. So show me owners writing that they love how the car behaves in normal driving over bumpy roads.
 
LeftieBiker said:
My original claim was that the Model 3 rides "rougher" than a Leaf.
Your post was
In my case a Model 3 would have far less utility than a Leaf (because of the lack of a heated steering wheel, more difficult access, harsher ride, etc), and the additional range and track performance would be of no additional benefit. In fact, the rougher ride would be a definite negative point for me... the real car to compare a Model 3 with is the Bolt.
Your claims, although you have never been in a Model 3 and I'm willing to guess that the couple of reviews you cherry picked do not directly compare the Model 3 with either the LEAF or the Bolt.

STFU
 
LeftieBiker said:
..... many of them just tolerate it because they like everything else about the car....

I am used to firm riding cars as I have had lowered cars with H&R or Eibach springs from Honda Accord to Mazda Miatae.

However, what would bother me the most in a TM3 is that the center touch screen controls everything and it is the only display.

I love how LEAF speedometer is almost at the position of HUD.

It is just dumb to have all the displays in the center console like the NAV is in a 'normal' car.

That is the reason I won't get a TM3 besides the overprice.
 
SageBrush said:
LeftieBiker said:
My original claim was that the Model 3 rides "rougher" than a Leaf.
Your post was
In my case a Model 3 would have far less utility than a Leaf (because of the lack of a heated steering wheel, more difficult access, harsher ride, etc), and the additional range and track performance would be of no additional benefit. In fact, the rougher ride would be a definite negative point for me... the real car to compare a Model 3 with is the Bolt.
Your claims, although you have never been in a Model 3 and I'm willing to guess that the couple of reviews you cherry picked do not directly compare the Model 3 with either the LEAF or the Bolt.

STFU

I know the kind of ride I like, and I know how the Model 3 is described as riding. My post was an expression of my preference. I also didn't "cherry pick" any reviews. I just haven't seen any that called the Model 3 a smooth riding car on bumpy roads. If you really don't think a Model 3 has a harsher/rougher ride than a Leaf, you are in the minority.

Now, as for telling me to "Shut The **** Up": you appear to be off your meds again, so back in the filter with you - this time for a year, or however long it takes for you to learn civility. Your positive contributions don't nearly exceed your negatives.
 
Since this thread has degraded into a Tesla Model 3 pissing match... I did have one comment on this idea of comparing the Tesla to the Leaf.

I remember the big hyping point of the Model 3 was going to be a Tesla for $35k (under $30k after the tax credit) but the cheapest one I can build on their website is $46,000. Given that the tax credit is going to start getting phased out next year already, will there ever actually be a Model 3 sold for under $30k including the tax credit? I don't think there will be. So lets be honest about their relative costs.

For comparison, a fully loaded 2018 Leaf SL with pro-pilot is $38k MSRP that's already $8k less than the base Tesla in black with no options currently available. And in reality I could go get a fully loaded SL for about $33k today at multiple dealerships in my area in multiple colors. Furthermore, a bare bones 2018 Leaf S is under $30k MSRP and probably close to $26k in reality.

It just seems like apples to oranges to me. Y'all can argue about the ride stiffness and what not until you are blue in the face but a Tesla is just not an option for me due to the cost no matter how badass it would be to have one.
 
tesleaf said:
However, what would bother me the most in a TM3 is that the center touch screen controls everything and it is the only display.
This was a pretty frequent worry of people on the Tesla forum *before* they took ownership of the car. Now it is never talked about except to say that the concern turned out to be a non-issue and they *prefer* the way it is setup in the Model 3.

The way to reduce car ownership costs is to keep the car a long time. Once you accept that reality the Model 3 is moderately priced. People who gauge car costs by a 5 year timetable are not prioritizing cost of ownership.
 
SageBrush said:
tesleaf said:
However, what would bother me the most in a TM3 is that the center touch screen controls everything and it is the only display.
This was a pretty frequent worry of people on the Tesla forum *before* they took ownership of the car. Now it is never talked about except to say that the concern turned out to be a non-issue and they *prefer* the way it is setup in the Model 3.

The way to reduce car ownership costs is to keep the car a long time. Once you accept that reality the Model 3 is moderately priced. People who gauge car costs by a 5 year timetable are not prioritizing cost of ownership.

Some of us might well keep a LEAF well beyond 5 years. Some of us see no additional value for the extra money for a Model 3. Some of use actually love our LEAFs, and might well replace the LEAF with a new LEAF if it dies, is totaled, etc. As I already have.

Would you please take the Tesla sales pitches someplace else? Please?
 
As someone who prefers better handling to softer ride, I'd by perfectly okay with the Model 3's firmer ride, as reported by virtually most reviews I've read*. It's a Sports sedan aimed to compete with the 3-series; of course it will ride firmer than a car intended primarily for A to B commuting on potholed/truck-waved freeways. Now, if Nissan ever gets serious about a Nismo LEAF (instead of the badge-engineered current version), then it will make sense to talk about the relative ride qualities of the two vehicles.

And there's no reason for incivility - we get enough of that from our politicians.



* Here's one example of a contrary view: https://www.businessinsider.com/tesla-model-3-reviews-differ-on-ride-quality-2018-3

Here's a discussion on the tesla forum: https://forums.tesla.com/forum/forums/model-3-ride-quality
 
WetEV said:
SageBrush said:
tesleaf said:
However, what would bother me the most in a TM3 is that the center touch screen controls everything and it is the only display.
This was a pretty frequent worry of people on the Tesla forum *before* they took ownership of the car. Now it is never talked about except to say that the concern turned out to be a non-issue and they *prefer* the way it is setup in the Model 3.

The way to reduce car ownership costs is to keep the car a long time. Once you accept that reality the Model 3 is moderately priced. People who gauge car costs by a 5 year timetable are not prioritizing cost of ownership.

Some of us might well keep a LEAF well beyond 5 years. Some of us see no additional value for the extra money for a Model 3. Some of use actually love our LEAFs, and might well replace the LEAF with a new LEAF if it dies, is totaled, etc. As I already have.

Would you please take the Tesla sales pitches someplace else? Please?

I am holding out for the promised 35K actually 37K in white. It may never happen but Elon promised . I am not holding my breath. They say that currently they can not make a 35K car without loosing money.
 
GlennD said:
WetEV said:
SageBrush said:
This was a pretty frequent worry of people on the Tesla forum *before* they took ownership of the car. Now it is never talked about except to say that the concern turned out to be a non-issue and they *prefer* the way it is setup in the Model 3.

The way to reduce car ownership costs is to keep the car a long time. Once you accept that reality the Model 3 is moderately priced. People who gauge car costs by a 5 year timetable are not prioritizing cost of ownership.

Some of us might well keep a LEAF well beyond 5 years. Some of us see no additional value for the extra money for a Model 3. Some of use actually love our LEAFs, and might well replace the LEAF with a new LEAF if it dies, is totaled, etc. As I already have.

Would you please take the Tesla sales pitches someplace else? Please?

I am holding out for the promised 35K actually 37K in white. It may never happen but Elon promised . I am not holding my breath. They say that currently they can not make a 35K car without loosing money.

Even Chevy says they lose $9K-10K on each Bolt they sell.
Tesla will lose money on $35K TM3.
The demand seems to be high for mid and long range models. Why would they make $35K short range model if they lose money?
I have no reason to FUD Tesla, and I don't think $35K Tesla will ever get produced.
 
Elon has been consistent in saying that the $35k Model 3 will be profitable to manufacture when Tesla is able to produce 10k Model 3 a week. He estimates that will happen early 2019 so I figure mid 2019 until deliveries in substantial volume
 
tesleaf said:
Even Chevy says they lose $9K-10K on each Bolt they sell.
Tesla will lose money on $35K TM3.

Nissan says they make money on LEAFs, selling for rather less than a Bolt or a TM3. I expect that GM might well have lost $9k, as rumor had it, on the first Bolts including fixed costs and amortization of development costs, but as production costs decline and the development costs are fully amortized, the Bolt has a real chance of making money.

tesleaf said:
I have no reason to FUD Tesla, and I don't think $35K Tesla will ever get produced.

I do think the $35k M3 will be produced.

But not as long as Tesla can sell all the more expensive and profitable LR and MR it can produce. Only once the lead time for LR and MR is down to zero days or below.
 
WetEV said:
I do think the $35k M3 will be produced.

But not as long as Tesla can sell all the more expensive and profitable LR and MR it can produce. Only once the lead time for LR and MR is down to zero days or below.

It'll probably get made but the tax credit will have long expired by then. There will never be a Tesla that sells for under $30k net IMO.
 
golfcart said:
WetEV said:
I do think the $35k M3 will be produced.

But not as long as Tesla can sell all the more expensive and profitable LR and MR it can produce. Only once the lead time for LR and MR is down to zero days or below.

It'll probably get made but the tax credit will have long expired by then. There will never be a Tesla that sells for under $30k net IMO.
Never is a long time, but since the Federal tax credit drops to $3750 as of Jan 1st you are on safe ground regarding this Model 3 SR iteration ... unless other tax credits come into play. Colorado e.g. has a $5,000 state tax credit, and a handful of other states offer $2,000 - $2,500. And you never know, GM might use its lobbying might to renew the Federal credit.
 
SageBrush said:
golfcart said:
WetEV said:
I do think the $35k M3 will be produced.

But not as long as Tesla can sell all the more expensive and profitable LR and MR it can produce. Only once the lead time for LR and MR is down to zero days or below.

It'll probably get made but the tax credit will have long expired by then. There will never be a Tesla that sells for under $30k net IMO.
Never is a long time, but since the Federal tax credit drops to $3750 as of Jan 1st you are on safe ground regarding this Model 3 SR iteration ... unless other tax credits come into play. Colorado e.g. has a $5,000 state tax credit, and a handful of other states offer $2,000 - $2,500. And you never know, GM might use its lobbying might to renew the Federal credit.

I wish I had a relative in Colorado...
I could get $12500 off on a EV.

A Leaf S 60 kwh will be under $30K after tax credit. TM3 SR loses in my book.
And Hyundai Kona will beat both of them in terms of value.
 
tesleaf said:
A Leaf S 60 kwh will be under $30K after tax credit. TM3 SR loses in my book.
And Hyundai Kona will beat both of them in terms of value.

I went and drove a 2018 Leaf SV with cold weather and tech packages as well as a base 2018 Volt with the comfort package. Both were advertised at ~$33k.

Both were very nice cars and felt similar in terms of acceleration and throttle response. I thought the Volt was a better looking car with a nicer infotainment system that handled better than the leaf but lacked space in the back seat, had no QC capabilities, and had poor visibility . I loved the lines on the car, I liked the drivers position, and I thought the buttons were laid out well in intuitive places.

The leaf was more spacious than the Volt especially in the back seat, had the cool e-pedal system, and had more overall bells and whistles than the Volt but still has limited range and uninspired handling. It felt a little roomier than my 2015 S and I thought the cabin looked much more modern with a nicer display, better console layout, and nice integrated features like android auto and bluetooth streaming. I really liked the looks of the exterior compared to my 2015. It looks less like a tree frog and more like the typical modern Nissan design. It is a nice car and if I didn't already have the 2015 it would definitely be a good buy if I needed a car NOW.

The big takeaway from all of these test drives was that neither blew me away in comparison with my gen1 leaf and that I think I am probably committed to full electric rather than a phev because I just don't want to deal with all of the ICE issues that come with one like oil changes, emissions testing, exhaust leaks, etc... Obviously the range is my big issue with the 2015 which both cars would solve but neither made my current leaf feel slow, clunky, or outdated aside from the infotainment system which I could easily fix with a $300 head unit upgrade. The 2015 is far uglier IMO than both of these cars but I'm used to it by now and can deal with it a couple more years.

My conclusion... unless the dealership is gonna give me some ridiculous <$27k out the door and pay off my trade I don't think I'm gonna go for either. I don't want the added complexity of the Volt drivetrain and I think there is a good chance that the leaf eplus or kona EV is gonna make the 2018 leaf look like poor value over the long haul... Especially if the eplus S really gives you 200hp and 225 miles of liquid cooled range for $35k like it is rumored to do. I actually used to be big into the import tuning scene in the early 2000's and my favorite car was the old school Sentra SE-R so I might actually pony up the cash for a NISMO leaf if they every bring it to the U.S. especially if it handles well, looks more aggressive, and goes 0-60 ~6 seconds.

So I guess it is planB for now which is to QC on my way to work when it's cold out or I need to run errands and just consider it part of my morning commute. It'll save me cash and spending 10 minutes a day 4 days a week to charge for free really isn't enough of a headache to go drop $25k on a new car that isn't much of an upgrade from what I have.

Thanks for all the thoughts and advice.
 
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