GRA
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Re: 2017 Prius Prime PHEV

Tue Dec 11, 2018 4:30 pm

SageBrush wrote:^^ You are not making any sense. Try again, since:

Californians buy AWD and skip on winter tyres to a large degree.
If the routes to the ski resorts require 'R2' then they are obliged to put on chains whether they have AWD or not.
No:
Requirement 2 (R2): Chains or traction devices2 are required on all vehicles except four wheel/ all wheel drive vehicles with snow-tread tires on all four wheels.
NOTE: (Four wheel/all wheel drive vehicles must carry traction devices in chain control areas.)

Requirement 3 (R3): Chains or traction devices are required on all vehicles, no exceptions. . . .

Snow-tread Tires: The California Vehicle Code, Section 558 defines a snow-tread tire as follows, "A 'Snow-tread tire' is a tire which has a relatively deep and aggressive tread pattern compared with conventional passenger tread pattern". Snow-tread tires can be identified by examining the sidewall of the tire where the letters MS, M/S, M+S or the words MUD AND SNOW have been stamped into the sidewall.
http://www.dot.ca.gov/cttravel/chain-controls.html
SageBrush wrote:If R1 the AWD with poor tyres is allowed to use the route but they have sacrificed safety for convenience.
Sure, the question is how much. For example, in Yosemite Valley the roads make a 14 mile loop. Often, they'll be completely dry except for two locations extending about 100 yards each, where frost//snow/ice can build or stick longer. Either can easily be driven without chains, even on bald tires. I know this because I once wrecked a set of rear tires and chains on my (RWD) Impala while I was staying there for a week, as they had chain controls up for the entire valley loop even though these were the only two patches of road that weren't completely dry. After I wore a chain cross link away on one of them (the other chain's cross links were getting pretty close) and spent a half hour under the car at night untangling the first chain (it had wrapped itself around the axle when it broke), I removed the other one before it broke and I had to go through a second untangling, and proceeded to exit the valley climbing 2,000 feet in the process over mostly snow covered roads on bald rear tires. I took my time, but had zero issues. The tires had been in good shape when I arrived, but were bald after a week of chains grinding on them on pavement. I would have relished having a ranger stop me, because I was furious and would have loved to tell them just what I thought of their chain control practices.

Even if they don't have controls up for the entire valley loop, they may put them up for just these two spots, which is ludicrous - one's completely flat, and the other's a slight curve on a very gentle downhill, where you're already driving slowly - I have no doubt that an idiot could get in trouble at either, but they can do that anywhere. Even when the Valley roads are snow covered they're almost entirely flat, and anyone paying even the slightest attention can drive them sans chains on regular tire, never mind snow tires. Given the option of dealing with that or similar issues (parts of I-80 and SR-120 can dip in and out of bare pavement for substantial distances) on a regular basis, or just buying a car with 4/AWD with M+S tires to avoid the hassle, which do you think most skiers here choose? You rarely see R3 here, because instead of putting that up they're more likely to just close the road. Although I've always carried chains in my 4/AWD cars, I think I've only had to use them (and was glad to have them) once in 30 years.
Last edited by GRA on Tue Dec 11, 2018 4:45 pm, edited 2 times in total.
Guy [I have lots of experience designing/selling off-grid AE systems, some using EVs but don't own one. Local trips are by foot, bike and/or rapid transit].

The 'best' is the enemy of 'good enough'. Copper shot, not Silver bullets.

SageBrush
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Re: 2017 Prius Prime PHEV

Tue Dec 11, 2018 4:38 pm

GRA wrote: No:
Yes.
The point here is that people are buying AWD and skipping winter tyres.
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GRA
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Re: 2017 Prius Prime PHEV

Tue Dec 11, 2018 4:53 pm

SageBrush wrote:
GRA wrote: No:
Yes.
The point here is that people are buying AWD and skipping winter tyres.
Because we simply don't need them - as I mentioned, most people don't live where snow's on the ground most of the winter, so putting full blown winter tires on and driving around with them on bare pavement for 4 months or more makes no sense. All-season M+S tires are legal, adequately safe, last longer, are quieter, get better mileage and don't require buying an extra set of tires, storing them and having them mounted/demounted every year, so why would people opt for the latter when they get little benefit? It would be different if you lived above the snow line, but only a small number of people here do compared to the much larger numbers who just visit occasionally.
Guy [I have lots of experience designing/selling off-grid AE systems, some using EVs but don't own one. Local trips are by foot, bike and/or rapid transit].

The 'best' is the enemy of 'good enough'. Copper shot, not Silver bullets.

RonDawg
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Re: 2017 Prius Prime PHEV

Tue Dec 11, 2018 5:01 pm

SageBrush wrote:Californians buy AWD and skip on winter tyres to a large degree.
In addition to what GRA posted, winter tires are not designed to be operated in warmer weather conditions, which is not unusual in the more populated parts of this state (it's currently 64 degrees F here in LA, but highs of 80's and even 90's are not unheard of even in January). Winter tires driven in such weather conditions will wear out quicker, but more importantly almost all winter tires have subpar traction in the dry and even the wet (but well above freezing point) when compared to even an all-season. Exceptions are the newest so-called "All Weather" tires like the Michelin CrossClimate or Vredestein Quatrac 5.

So we make do with all seasons, because it makes no sense to swap them for true winter tires for the occasional weekend in Tahoe or Mammoth or Big Bear. And until I get to a high enough elevation for the temperature to drop to that tire's design specification, I'll be driving with reduced grip.

Jason from Engineering Explained shows why (skip to 2:00 if you just want to see the results):

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Lrz14n4vVkQ

Note that Jason performed that test at 63 F, hardly "summer" and there was already significant degradation in the winter tire's braking performance as compared to the all season tire.
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LeftieBiker
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Re: 2017 Prius Prime PHEV

Tue Dec 11, 2018 5:20 pm

It will be interesting to see if the Toyo Celsius 4 season Winter tires solve the above problem. They would be best for those who travel to the mountains a LOT, of course.
Last edited by LeftieBiker on Tue Dec 11, 2018 11:07 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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GRA
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Re: 2017 Prius Prime PHEV

Tue Dec 11, 2018 5:28 pm

RonDawg wrote: <snip> So we make do with all seasons, because it makes no sense to swap them for true winter tires for the occasional weekend in Tahoe or Mammoth or Big Bear. And until I get to a high enough elevation for the temperature to drop to that tire's design specification, I'll be driving with reduced grip. . . .

Note that Jason performed that test at 63 F, hardly "summer" and there was already significant degradation in the winter tire's braking performance as compared to the all season tire.
Yup (cool and sunny in the Bay Area today, highs in the upper '50s, lows '30s - '40s). Living close to an ocean rather than in the center of a continental landmass really moderates the temps. Blue Canyon on I-80 (5,282 feet) is currently 43 deg., with the overnight low (partly cloudy) forecast to be 35. Even Truckee, which is just a few miles from the spot where the lowest temp ever recorded in California occurred (Boca, -45 in 1937, and I was up there once when that same spot hit -37) is 39 right now, and the overnight low is forecast to be 21.
Guy [I have lots of experience designing/selling off-grid AE systems, some using EVs but don't own one. Local trips are by foot, bike and/or rapid transit].

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RonDawg
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Re: 2017 Prius Prime PHEV

Tue Dec 11, 2018 5:36 pm

GRA wrote:Even if they don't have controls up for the entire valley loop, they may put them up for just these two spots, which is ludicrous - one's completely flat, and the other's a slight curve on a very gentle downhill, where you're already driving slowly - I have no doubt that an idiot could get in trouble at either, but they can do that anywhere. Even when the Valley roads are snow covered they're almost entirely flat, and anyone paying even the slightest attention can drive them sans chains on regular tire, never mind snow tires.
The first winter I had my Alltrack, the southern Sierras got a record amount of snowfall. So 395 had R2 chain controls from basically just outside Bishop, going to pretty much the NV border.

While there were some treacherous sections, particularly just north of the Mammoth Lakes turnoff, there were many long and dry patches as well. But Caltrans is of the belief to "chain up early" and for every mile you actually had slick conditions, there were 2 or perhaps even 5 miles of perfectly dry roadway. And if you didn't have AWD with the legally-specified tires, you were forced to chain up and endure the noise and vibration as well as tearing up the asphalt.
Although I've always carried chains in my 4/AWD cars, I think I've only had to use them (and was glad to have them) once in 30 years.
Technically it's the law in California to carry chains in your vehicle even if yours is exempt from chains in R2 conditions (used to be that way with R1, but that seems to have been eliminated). Even with 4WD/AWD I've had to show that I had chains in my vehicle, and one time at a checkpoint going up to Big Bear I saw a Toyota 4X4 being ordered to turn around by the CHP officer because the driver didn't bring chains. Annoying, because I bought a set for my Toyota 4X4 that NEVER got used in the 7 years I owned it...and those suckers aren't cheap!
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RonDawg
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Re: 2017 Prius Prime PHEV

Tue Dec 11, 2018 5:50 pm

LeftieBiker wrote:It will be interesting to see in the Toyo Celsius 4 season Winter tires solve the above problem. They would be best for those who travel to the mountains a LOT, of course.
This review seems to like them a lot: https://www.autotrader.ca/newsfeatures/ ... -part-two/
Blue Ocean 2012 Leaf SV, lost that 1st bar at 34 months/26,435 miles. Lease returned 2 months later. Final LeafStat figures: 225 Gids, 17.44 kWH, SOC 91.89%, SOH 82.36%, 69.49% HX, 54.57 Ahr, battery temp 61.8 F.
Now driving a 2015 VW eGolf SEL.

GRA
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Re: 2017 Prius Prime PHEV

Tue Dec 11, 2018 5:50 pm

RonDawg wrote:
GRA wrote:Although I've always carried chains in my 4/AWD cars, I think I've only had to use them (and was glad to have them) once in 30 years.
Technically it's the law in California to carry chains in your vehicle even if yours is exempt from chains in R2 conditions (used to be that way with R1, but that seems to have been eliminated). Even with 4WD/AWD I've had to show that I had chains in my vehicle, and one time at a checkpoint going up to Big Bear I saw a Toyota 4X4 being ordered to turn around by the CHP officer because the driver didn't bring chains.
I carry them for both reasons but I've never had to show them, probably because I rarely go up to Tahoe anymore but usually ski in Yosemite, and I'm normally coming into the park at night after the tourists are off the roads - the rangers are few and far between. Course, the first ski trip I took my first Subie up to Yosemite I got overconfident and slid off a turn and over a small pine tree, doing about $1,300 worth of damage and learning that 4WD doesn't help you brake or turn. That lesson's 30 years old now, and I've never had an accident since.

Sounds like 395's as bad as I-80 as far as chains. I could see there might be problems over Deadman summit (8,047') north of Mammoth, although I'd think descending Sherwin summit (6,426) north of Bishop going south would be worse if there's snow.
Guy [I have lots of experience designing/selling off-grid AE systems, some using EVs but don't own one. Local trips are by foot, bike and/or rapid transit].

The 'best' is the enemy of 'good enough'. Copper shot, not Silver bullets.

RonDawg
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Re: 2017 Prius Prime PHEV

Tue Dec 11, 2018 7:31 pm

GRA wrote:Sounds like 395's as bad as I-80 as far as chains. I could see there might be problems over Deadman summit (8,047') north of Mammoth, although I'd think descending Sherwin summit (6,426) north of Bishop going south would be worse if there's snow.
The section between the Mammoth Lakes turnoff and Deadman Summit is worse because that stretch of roadway is perpetually shaded by trees. Very scenic, but in winter can be treacherous as the snow takes forever to melt. It often will have R2 restrictions well after even R1 is lifted elsewhere.

Sherwin Grade is steeper but snow/ice melt quickly as it's almost all exposed to the sun.
Blue Ocean 2012 Leaf SV, lost that 1st bar at 34 months/26,435 miles. Lease returned 2 months later. Final LeafStat figures: 225 Gids, 17.44 kWH, SOC 91.89%, SOH 82.36%, 69.49% HX, 54.57 Ahr, battery temp 61.8 F.
Now driving a 2015 VW eGolf SEL.

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