Range anxiety..

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The 50% drop comes from the real world driving experiences of quite a few people - including me. My 2013 SV had a 70 mile Summer range in 2016, and a worst case Winter range (in frigid weather, which is defined here as below 15F, when the heat pump stops making a significant contribution) of about 40 miles. I could get a few more miles by driving slowly, but we are assuming you wouldn't want to be driving 30MPH and arriving home again with the car about to stop from battery depletion. 60 miles is just too much to expect from a 24kwh Leaf when temps are in the teens (F) or colder. Yes, you'd have (just) enough range on most days, but again we assume that you won't have the option of using another car in frigid weather.
 
Same here in the upper mid west. Today, for example, it was warm out, 16F or -9C and we started at 100%, drove 16 miles at highway speeds (70 mph) and the rest were city streets, totaling 48 miles and got home with 6%. That is pretty typical for us, when it gets normal cold, like 0F or -17C we skip the highway part and can go about that same 50 miles. Throw in snow and heat / defrost to see and you at 35 miles. Granted we are one bar down now, but that is real life. Oh all highway range today would be about 35 miles...
 
Today, for example, it was warm out, 16F or -9C and we started at 100%, drove 16 miles at highway speeds (70 mph) and the rest were city streets, totaling 48 miles and got home with 6%.

That sounds crazy bad. All of you earlier adopters really paid some dues. Farther south, we have not seen sustained temperature in the teens yet, but when we do, if I start seeing a loss of more than 1% charge for every mile on my 19-mile commute, I'll be alarmed. Even if I suspect that it's going to happen.

For me when It gets blow 40 it 9s cold. I just can not imagine weather below freezing.

We'll tell you all about it. :) I grow less fond of cold and winter every year, and yet I still fear and dread oppressive heat even more. Much more. From what I can tell, the Leaf favors the same temperature range I do. So I guess we'll suffer together.
 
rcrw88 said:
So the range chart is totally inaccurate for that 1% per 2 degrees Celsius drop? Bummer.
I didn't look at that until now. The problem is, you need to also take into account the increased power consumption from having to run the heater and/or defogger in addition to the increased rolling resistance of wet, slushy or snowy roads.
 
Is that Tony's range chart? Did he really make no attempt to factor in heater use in cold temps? Yikes. Typically EV range estimates are determined in mild weather with little or no heater use, but we obviously need a chart that accounts for normal heater use, both for heatpump-equipped and resistance heat only EVs.
 
LeftieBiker said:
Is that Tony's range chart? Did he really make no attempt to factor in heater use in cold temps? Yikes. Typically EV range estimates are determined in mild weather with little or no heater use, but we obviously need a chart that accounts for normal heater use, both for heatpump-equipped and resistance heat only EVs.
There are some notes at the bottom of http://www.mynissanleaf.com/viewtopic.php?t=4295. The original 24 kWh range chart was intended for '11 and '12 Leafs. There was no hybrid heater until '13 SV and SL.
 
I can see where it would be misunderstood. It talks about "temperature" and 'subtracting 1% for each 4F below 70F' but this is just about reduced battery performance, not heater usage. You also have to subtract 1.5kwh for heat for each hour driven. Had I known this hadn't been covered more thoroughly I would have tried to contribute.

Here's another anecdotal metric. The first Winter I drove my 2013 I was still working, and had a 42 mile round trip commute. The trip in was in the late evening, the trip home near but before dawn. Most of it was secondary roads and lower speed (40-45MPH) highway, but there was also some ( several miles) highway driving at 55MPH. Based on what I know now, my pack probably had ~95% remaining capacity - maybe a little less, as it was a Hot Summer and I didn't know about heat-related degradation. Anyway, I took fairly stiff measures on Frigid nights like that, at least by my standards, using a 12 volt heated fleece car blanket over my lap and legs while driving, accelerating slowly, never exceeding 55MPH. I set the heat to 69F, IIRC (I have health issues) and the blower on 1 or 2. I didn't know about partial recirculate then, so I switched Recirc back and forth to save heat and minimize fogging.

On the coldest commute it was in the Teens on the trip in, and fairly windy. The trip home was at about -5F, with stiff winds. I chickened out a bit and stopped for a 10 minute partial charge at a Nissan dealership. I noted how much charge was added. When I got home I had about 8 miles of indicated range left (I don't think the GOM blanked), having added about 6 miles of range at the dealership. So on that blustery, frigid night, my car had a range of 44 miles, with no real highway driving and less than adequate heat. I'd estimate a mostly highway trip at 55MPH would have yielded a range of about 35 miles under those conditions. Maybe less.
 
LeftieBiker said:
I can see where it would be misunderstood. It talks about "temperature" and 'subtracting 1% for each 4F below 70F' but this is just about reduced battery performance, not heater usage. You also have to subtract 1.5kwh for heat for each hour driven. Had I known this hadn't been covered more thoroughly I would have tried to contribute.
And, the 1.5 kWh for heat for each hour driven assumes 1.5 kWh consumption for heat each hour. It could be higher or lower.

Keep in mind Tony lives in the San Diego area which gets sooooo cold and it snows sooo much there... ;)

I thought he he hadn't had a Leaf in years since BC2BC (http://www.mynissanleaf.com/viewtopic.php?t=8879) as I talked to him in person about http://www.mynissanleaf.com/viewtopic.php?p=486597#p486597, which I found out had fallen thru. It got sold to someone else before he was able to pick it up. Our guess is that the seller realized the price was too low and got a better price from someone else.

However, I guess he did end up leasing http://www.mynissanleaf.com/viewtopic.php?p=500329#p500329.
 
I should have added to my post, we run snows in winter and right away I see a .3 decrease in miles / kWh and having a 13 S we also only have the resistance heater, although I set that to 90F and leave it on fan speed one, usually pulling about 1500 to 2000 watts once warmed up and we pre-heat the cabin 95% time.
 
I guess is what we're trying to stress to the OP, especially living in Canada is cold weather really kills range. Take for instance yesterday when it was in the low teens in MN. We had to run several local errands and I knew one of the stops had a free 30a L2 ChargePoint EVSE so I purposely only left with a 50% charge, note this SOC would easily make the whole trip in the summer. By the time we got to HyVee(that had the free L2 EVSEs) we were down to about 30%, this was less than 1/2 our total planned trip. Parking for 48 minutes got us back to about 50% SOC. By the time we finished our trip the miles were flashing and SOC% was in the single digits. Note as I figured we had enough charge I didn't really restrict our heat use so we had an upper mid-level fan speed which with outside temps probably meant the resistive heater(my '13S) was running 100% on. Note at these temps a heatpump Leaf wouldn't probably have gained us much. And note the roads were totally clear, not much wind and most of our roads were 40-50 mph, no freeways. Our final stretch was on a highway doing 55mph and every time I'd look down at the SOC% it would be down another 1 or 2% :cry:
If your OK driving without heat the range would not be affected nearly as much but often times when it gets cold the windows are very apt to frost up, driving in such a state isn't really safe without running the heat to defrost the windshield or side windows, I'd done it with cold air and it helps a little but your really need heat to do a decent job.
Summer, no problem with your commute and a 24kWh Leaf, winter, without work or charging along the way, I wouldn't recommend it :) Also note in very cold temps charging speed can slow down quite a bit. It did on the Chargepoint EVSE I used, normally a 48 minute charge would gain me closer to 30% SOC and yesterday it only gained about 20% :( Just when you need the speed the most, it slows down! Same thing with regen, the colder it gets the less regen you get. BEVs are great cars in moderate temps but you really need to oversize the battery in very cold temps.
 
I'm almost entirely set on getting a volt now. I was toying with the idea of picking the leaf with fast charge and relying on the chademo half way there if things got really hairy but I was convinced eliminating the stress by having an ICE backup is best. I'm hoping in a few years if/when the 2018/2019 leaf is affordable, has a battery that works for me, and I establish a work charging spot ahead of time, I'll definitely reconsider. My issue was that my car was totaled so it accelerated my timeline! Thanks y'all
 
rcrw88 said:
I'm almost entirely set on getting a volt now. I was toying with the idea of picking the leaf with fast charge and relying on the chademo half way there if things got really hairy but I was convinced eliminating the stress by having an ICE backup is best. I'm hoping in a few years if/when the 2018/2019 leaf is affordable, has a battery that works for me, and I establish a work charging spot ahead of time, I'll definitely reconsider. My issue was that my car was totaled so it accelerated my timeline! Thanks y'all
The Volt seems like a very handy vehicle and believe me you, if I had fit into the Volt I'd probably be driving one now. Unfortunately it just left me feeling way too cramped and claustrophobic. If you fit fine in the Volt and it has enough storage, I'd say it sounds like a better fit in your case :)
 
The biggest drop I've seen on my 2017 GOM is 26% less range in 0F/-18C and using snow tires. If my battery is 30kwhr, then that's about 7.8 kwhrs of "penalty" for being winter, spent over about 90 minutes of driving (5.2 kwhrs extra per hour of driving). I think that matches reports of the inductive heater?defrost pulling as much as 5kw.

If you had a 30kwhr battery (2016/2017), and it was degraded 30% over 5 years (effectively 21 kwhrs), and you wanted to arrive home at about the "Very Low Battery" alert (7%-8%, or 1.6kwhrs), then you have about 124 km's of range at 96 km/hr, according to Tony's chart. If your commute took 90 minutes total, you might subtract about 7.8 kwhrs for heating, or 37% of your capacity, yielding about 78 km. (37% range loss for heating/snow tires on a 30kwhr Leaf also sounds reasonable to me, based on other reports).

So even with a late-model 30kwhr Leaf, with the heat-pump, that's the case where you would still not have enough range for your commute (you may be short by 19 km):
- the battery has degraded by 30% (maybe 5-7 years after manufacture, in your climate)
- it's -18C and you're using snow tires, plus some loose snow on the roads
- no preheating

The easiest way to improve this is to preheat the car while plugged into a L2 charger at home. If the car is toasty and 100% charged when you depart for work, I doubt that the heater would pull more than 3kw, saving you about 3.6kw on the way to work. That's enough for 16 extra kilometers.

A second way to improve would be to slow down to 90 km/hr on the coldest days. An 8km/hr slowdown should get you an extra 12 km (per Tony's sheet).

A third improvement would be to get a plug at work (even a 120v, 12A plug at the lamp-post would add 7km per hour). I don't think this would be necessary until range has degraded by 30%, so you wouldn't need it for several years.

My guess is that, provided that you preheat before departure, a 2016/2017 Leaf with heat pump should work without a plug-in at work until it's 3 to 5 years old. Years down the road, when the car is 30% degraded, then some kind of plug-in at work would be necessary. If that outlet is not in the cards, then the Volt is also an excellent choice. (Though the Volt would benefit even more from a workplace charging outlet).

FYI, my pack is at 2.3% degradation after 19 months in Minnesota. Our weather is about the same (-9.1 C vs your -4.7 C daily mean in Jan, 23.2 C vs your 22 C daily mean in July). I am not expecting to see 30% degradation until 6.5 years (winter 2023/2024 for a 2017; a year earlier for a 2016), based on comparing my numbers with FlipTheFleet.org charts. If you're buying used, be sure to buy a Leaf used in Canada, and not something trucked-in from Arizona (not sure if they do that). If I were you, I'd probably be looking at 2016 Leaf SLs, or SV with heat pump (may be hard to find). If I were buying new, I'd either look at a 60kw+ car (Bolt, Niro EV, Kona EV, Soul EV) or wait for the 60kw Leaf.
 
I was looking at 2015s. The one I wanted didn't have fast charging either. :(

Ty for the input on range; I test drove another leaf for its full range and got about 70km, but it was mild.
 
To "SPecialgreen"..

What you are describing is a case of the reality of driving an EV. You do not say how far you drove in the 0 degree weather. I do not see your experience as unusual, as your car is pretty much powering an "electric toaster" with heating elements every minute that you are driving.

It is the state of technology of EVs. What I wish the car companies would do would be to include a dedicated kerosene (or other fluid) heater with a separate tank we could fill when needed...

This can be done, as I remember as a kid, we used to have stainless steel pocket heaters that were powered by lighter fluid. We would light a glowing wick, cover it with the steel cover, and put it in our pockets. All very safe and reliable, and it would keep you warm for many hours...
 
powersurge said:
It is the state of technology of EVs. What I wish the car companies would do would be to include a dedicated kerosene (or other fluid) heater with a separate tank we could fill when needed...
VW equipped many of their later air-cooled vehicles with a gasoline powered heater which ran off the fuel tank of the vehicle. Made by Eberspacher I believe. Had the advantage of facilitating cold weather preheating as well as working much better than the hot air exchange system otherwise used by VW at the time to heat their vehicles. The technology certainly exists, the question is only whether there is enough interest for Nissan and others to offer the option. You'd think those Scandinavians, with their involvement in electric cars, would be interested.
 
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