Range anxiety..

I'm looking at a used Leaf in the GTA like OP, great responses in this thread and I'm learning a lot. I do have L2 charging at work, and there are usually a couple of spaces free. My commute is only 65km round trip, with approx. 35km being highway. I intend to charge daily at work (as well as home, of course). I do have access to an ICE vehicle in emergencies, and worse case scenario I'll WFH.

I wonder if I can get away with a 2011-12 or should I pony up more $ for a '13. Unfortunately, the prices have gone up recently (probably due to the scrapping of the provincial credit) and '13-14 are $15k+ meanwhile the '12s are close to $11k. $4k is a big difference ...

You wouldn't enjoy the terrible heater in the 2011-2012 Leaf. Get a later '13 with heat pump.

LeftieBiker said:

You wouldn't enjoy the terrible heater in the 2011-2012 Leaf. Get a later '13 with heat pump.

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+1, as an owner of both a '12 with its slow inadequate glycol heater and a '13S with it's quick to heat and better heating resistive heater, I personally wouldn't bother with an '11 or '12. I wouldn't necessarily overlook the generally much cheaper S model although the SV with it's heat pump would have advantages in all but single digits(F) and below temps.

The cheap '11 and '12 Leafs do have a use - in warm climates, where heat is more or less optional. Even then you'd have to add a switch to turn the heater off. That sounds like a joke, but it isn't...

I have a 2011 here in eastern newmexico.
It has the cold weather package and I need it about 2 or 3 weeks out of the winter.
To tell the difference a cold add on package leaf has the 5kw heater, the non cold package leaf only has a 3kw heater.
It gets warm air blowing in about 1 minute on recirculation, up to 2 or 3 minutes if using defrost.
If it got around 0F, having the 3kw heater would be pretty miserable.

This is the first mention I've seen of the base heater in the 2011/2012 having a lower output. I thought the cold weather package was the seat and steering wheel warmers, and the battery heater added, with the rest of the car staying the same.

LeftieBiker said:

This is the first mention I've seen of the base heater in the 2011/2012 having a lower output. I thought the cold weather package was the seat and steering wheel warmers, and the battery heater added, with the rest of the car staying the same.

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Ditto on all of the above.

Below is where I learned of the forced features that became standard on all US '12 to '15 Leafs on all trim levels:
https://www.autoblog.com/2011/07/19/2012-nissan-leaf-higher-price-tag-standard-equipment/
https://web.archive.org/web/20110613005608/http://green.autoblog.com/2011/06/10/2012-nissan-leaf-available-this-fall-cold-weather-package-now-s/

rcrw88 said:

Hey,

I commute 97km a day (60 miles). I'm considering a 2015 with just under 30k. I don't have charging at work but I may get it in the future. I'm okay with topping up at public stations until I can charge at work.

Does this car work for me? Test driving it showed 12 bars and 142km on range. Carfax looked okay.

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@LeftieBiker and @cwerdna have nailed the issues and a solid recommendation: no. Having a 2012 LEAF SL, I echo their rationale and recommendation.

I want to add something about the heat pump heater that I didn't see mentioned. Like any heat pump, it puts out more heat into the vehicle for lower energy expenditure for temperatures down to a certain level beyond which heat cannot be extracted from ambient air. I think that may be around 35ºF - 40ºF, but check other sources to be sure. Whatever that level is, temperatures colder than that trigger a resistance heating element that hugely sucks electrons. In Canada winters, I would expect to get a lot of heat from this latter method during most if not all the winter season. So if you are driving in such conditions and using the heater, go back to @LeftieBiker's 50% range loss as a great rule of thumb, and don't think acquiring a vehicle with the heat pump system will solve the range issue.

I want to add something about the heat pump heater that I didn't see mentioned. Like any heat pump, it puts out more heat into the vehicle for lower energy expenditure for temperatures down to a certain level beyond which heat cannot be extracted from ambient air. I think that may be around 35ºF - 40ºF, but check other sources to be sure. Whatever that level is, temperatures colder than that trigger a resistance heating element that hugely sucks electrons. In Canada winters, I would expect to get a lot of heat from this latter method during most if not all the winter season. So if you are driving in such conditions and using the heater, go back to @LeftieBiker's 50% range loss as a great rule of thumb, and don't think acquiring a vehicle with the heat pump system will solve the range issue.

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The heat pump and the resistance heater work together, not sequentially, in general. The resistance (aka "PTC") heater helps the car warm up fast, then the heat pump largely takes over - until temps fall below freezing. It isn't as bad as you guessed, but below roughly 25F you will really notice extra range loss, and below about 15F, even though the heatpump is still active (to about 8F), the range will be very similar to an S with PTC heater only. So yes, in frigid temps there is little or no extra range with the heat pump, but in average Winter weather, most people will see more range with it at least much of the time.

LeftieBiker said:

I want to add something about the heat pump heater that I didn't see mentioned. Like any heat pump, it puts out more heat into the vehicle for lower energy expenditure for temperatures down to a certain level beyond which heat cannot be extracted from ambient air. I think that may be around 35ºF - 40ºF, but check other sources to be sure. Whatever that level is, temperatures colder than that trigger a resistance heating element that hugely sucks electrons. In Canada winters, I would expect to get a lot of heat from this latter method during most if not all the winter season. So if you are driving in such conditions and using the heater, go back to @LeftieBiker's 50% range loss as a great rule of thumb, and don't think acquiring a vehicle with the heat pump system will solve the range issue.

Click to expand...

The heat pump and the resistance heater work together, not sequentially, in general. The resistance (aka "PTC") heater helps the car warm up fast, then the heat pump largely takes over - until temps fall below freezing. It isn't as bad as you guessed, but below roughly 25F you will really notice extra range loss, and below about 15F, even though the heatpump is still active (to about 8F), the range will be very similar to an S with PTC heater only. So yes, in frigid temps there is little or no extra range with the heat pump, but in average Winter weather, most people will see more range with it at least much of the time.

Click to expand...

I look at the heat pump as a tool to stretch the season when the car has enough range to get the job done. In my own case, was pushing the range to the car's design limit (2014 w/24KWh pack). When new, the car was good for @ 10 months the 1st year. After a couple of seasons, the battery had degraded slightly to where it was good for @ 8 months. The rest of the time it was a lump in a snow pile because it was useless for long distance commuting. Without a heat pump, those moderately cool-to-cold days would have meant a much shorter usable season. So, that heat pump is very appropriate for Canada or any cold northern usage.

The 2011 without the cold weather package has the same 5 kW water heater as the later 2011 and all 2012 models. As Leftie noted, the resistance heater and heat pump work together on 2013 and later models so equipped. The resistance heater comes on to provide quick heat when first turned on in my 2015 SL even in mild temperatures. The resistance heater will also supplement the heat pump even in moderate temperatures if the difference between present temperature and set point is high (I can make resistance heater turn on along with heat pump in my mild climate by setting desired temperature to 90F). Also, preheat while plugged in uses the resistance heater.

daftKow said:

I'm looking at a used Leaf in the GTA like OP, great responses in this thread and I'm learning a lot. I do have L2 charging at work, and there are usually a couple of spaces free. My commute is only 65km round trip, with approx. 35km being highway. I intend to charge daily at work (as well as home, of course). I do have access to an ICE vehicle in emergencies, and worse case scenario I'll WFH.

I wonder if I can get away with a 2011-12 or should I pony up more $ for a '13. Unfortunately, the prices have gone up recently (probably due to the scrapping of the provincial credit) and '13-14 are $15k+ meanwhile the '12s are close to $11k. $4k is a big difference ...

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Volt meets my needs very well. I basically use the entire charge and make it 50km at work, and use gas on the way home. I'll get 120v charging soon then I'm down to 25% gas usage from my Mazda.

I'd get the newer leaf based on not always having charging available... a volt you'd like too. You'd be stressed trying to get that spot each day should more people buy EVs at your work. The 2015 I tried and got over 80km on a really cold day but I never ended up using the whole battery. At my work, people bought leafs, PHEV priuses, a volt and a Ford ev within the last month.