Cite, please. Running the A/C on a car with a 220+ EPA range, on roads that largely preclude high speeds, doesn't take 70+ miles off the range.
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2018 - 2019 40KWH LEAF: Should You Buy or Lease?
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Cite, please. Running the A/C on a car with a 220+ EPA range, on roads that largely preclude high speeds, doesn't take 70+ miles off the range.
Oils4AsphaultOnly
Well-known member
LeftieBiker said:Oils4AsphaultOnly said:Great post!
However, can I convince you to change this line:
"If you need 200 or more miles of year round range, then an EV is not presently a good choice for you."
To this:
"If you need 200 or more miles of year round range, then you should review the available charging options and charging times along your travel routes first before considering an EV."
I'm not going to suggest to anyone that in order to travel as far as they need to go, they will always have to charge en route. Not with a 40kwh Leaf. Sorry. I will add "regularly."
That's the thing. I'm only caveating your line with the fact that almost 1/3 of the US population do not see sub-freezing temps in the winter, so their winter range isn't as adversely affected. So a Bolt or Model 3 are viable EV's for those groups of prospective buyers. With workplace charging, those drivers can even make the 40kwh leaf work (66% remaining battery life would still net a 100-mile range). If the focus of this thread is only on the 40kwh leaf, then suggest the reader consider the Chevy Bolt, Hyundai Kona EV, Kia Niro EV, or Tesla Model 3, instead of flat out declaring that an EV is presently not a good choice for them.
For a gas vehicle, a 200-mile daily commute would also require a fill-up every 2 or 3 days, that would be no different than stopping by a fast charger for 15-20 minutes on the leg back home (only need enough charge to make it home, not a second 200-mile return trip). Telling these drivers that they should stick with their hybrids is doing them a disservice without considering what their options are.
Seriously, you and WetEV need to argue with each other, not me. All the two of you are doing is cementing my position. I figure if both the extremes are unhappy with what I wrote, then I probably got it about right.
WetEV
Well-known member
LeftieBiker said:A Bolt doesn't have 150 miles of No Worries Range in Hawaii
Cite, please. Running the A/C on a car with a 220+ EPA range, on roads that largely preclude high speeds, doesn't take 70+ miles off the range.
Warranty is 60% capacity. Need a cite for that?
https://my.chevrolet.com/content/dam/gmownercenter/gmna/dynamic/manuals/2017/Chevrolet/BOLT%20EV/Owner's%20Manual.pdf
Math. Really need a cite? Ok.
https://wiki.gnome.org/Apps/Calculator
238 mile range *0.6 = 142 miles.
No reserve allowance, and getting home on turtle wouldn't be fun.
No weather allowance. Wind, rain, snow and cold all happen.
Not cite for these.
WetEV
Well-known member
Oils4AsphaultOnly said:For a gas vehicle, a 200-mile daily commute would also require a fill-up every 2 or 3 days, that would be no different than stopping by a fast charger for 15-20 minutes on the leg back home (only need enough charge to make it home, not a second 200-mile return trip). Telling these drivers that they should stick with their hybrids is doing them a disservice without considering what their options are.
Really. I take trips beyond range. I even commuted beyond range for a few weeks. With the current state of public charging, I wouldn't recommend it.
There is and was one DCQC available that is required to make the trip to Seattle. Fallback is and was L2s. I've never had the DCQC down, but it has been busy{edited}.
I've waited over an hour just once because people ahead of me. Think about this: late and you want to get home. But you are watching someone else's car charge. So that another car can charge. So that your car can charge... So you can get home, more than an hour later than planned.
Oils4AsphaultOnly
Well-known member
WetEV said:Oils4AsphaultOnly said:For a gas vehicle, a 200-mile daily commute would also require a fill-up every 2 or 3 days, that would be no different than stopping by a fast charger for 15-20 minutes on the leg back home (only need enough charge to make it home, not a second 200-mile return trip). Telling these drivers that they should stick with their hybrids is doing them a disservice without considering what their options are.
Really. I take trips beyond range. I even commuted beyond range for a few weeks. With the current state of public charging, I wouldn't recommend it.
There is and was one DCQC available that is required to make the trip to Seattle. Fallback is and was L2s. I've never had the DCQC down, but it has been down.
I've waited over an hour just once because people ahead of me. Think about this: late and you want to get home. But you are watching someone else's car charge. So that another car can charge. So that your car can charge... So you can get home, more than an hour later than planned.
You're doing this commute with a leaf right? And I can see that not working. But how does that translate to being applicable to a model 3? And how does that translate to a commuter who has work place charging? I'm not saying that it works for everyone. I'm saying to not blanket claim that it does NOT work for everyone either. For those who have that specific 200-mile commute, they need to research their situation more carefully, and possibly consider something other than a leaf.
You're in washington state, and I'm in Southern California. Drivers in our areas are going to have very different considerations to make in regards to what works for them. Frankly, I think my wording was more generally applicable than what either of you have put down, since I called for the driver to put in more leg work.
Oils4AsphaultOnly
Well-known member
WetEV said:LeftieBiker said:A Bolt doesn't have 150 miles of No Worries Range in Hawaii
Cite, please. Running the A/C on a car with a 220+ EPA range, on roads that largely preclude high speeds, doesn't take 70+ miles off the range.
Warranty is 60% capacity. Need a cite for that?
https://my.chevrolet.com/content/dam/gmownercenter/gmna/dynamic/manuals/2017/Chevrolet/BOLT%20EV/Owner's%20Manual.pdf
Math. Really need a cite? Ok.
https://wiki.gnome.org/Apps/Calculator
238 mile range *0.6 = 142 miles.
No reserve allowance, and getting home on turtle wouldn't be fun.
No weather allowance. Wind, rain, snow and cold all happen.
Not cite for these.
That's a theoretical loss. How about an actual one (ventura, CA): https://insideevs.com/chevrolet-bolt-battery-lost-capacity-70000-miles/
So should still have 200 mile range after 150k miles.
Edit: Having an Active TMS really helps slow down battery degradation.
We have the Tesla in my Sig. It is a fine car for trips. I often use it to travel 250 miles each way in a 4 season climate and have charged en-route twice or so. Both times I started the trip will less than a fully charged battery.
WetEV said:LeftieBiker said:A Bolt doesn't have 150 miles of No Worries Range in Hawaii
Cite, please. Running the A/C on a car with a 220+ EPA range, on roads that largely preclude high speeds, doesn't take 70+ miles off the range.
Warranty is 60% capacity. Need a cite for that?
https://my.chevrolet.com/content/dam/gmownercenter/gmna/dynamic/manuals/2017/Chevrolet/BOLT%20EV/Owner's%20Manual.pdf
Math. Really need a cite? Ok.
https://wiki.gnome.org/Apps/Calculator
238 mile range *0.6 = 142 miles.
No reserve allowance, and getting home on turtle wouldn't be fun.
No weather allowance. Wind, rain, snow and cold all happen.
Not cite for these.
So I should cite a range of 40 miles for the 40kwh Leaf because that's what one down in capacity to just above warranty replacement will get in frigid weather? Give it a rest, please. This is why you get filtered. The cite I requested, BTW, was for a Bolt only getting less than 150 miles of range in Hawaii. The lower speed driving should cancel out most of the A/C use, so it seems you're being a bit silly...
NIce work Lefty,
RE: the range paragraph
I would also like to see the Nissan battery packs clearly separate from other manufacturers e.g. Tesla in discussions about degradation. It should be clear that the Nissan pack does not have a TMS and its ramifications on degradation in not-cool climates and charge rate.
My personal take on LEAF packs:
They will reach ~ 63% of new capacity within a ~ a year after the time warranty lapses in a moderate climate (summer daily peaks below 90F, average ambient in the 60s F; do better in cooler climates (a good 10 years until capacity is down to ~ 63%) and considerably worse in hot climates -- about 4 - 6 years.
Regarding EPA miles:
So few people understand them. I tell people the highway range is based on 65 mph, dry, decent roads, and no headwind. The EPA attempt to include hot and cold days is less than helpful to EV drivers because the EPA shoots for an annual effect. I figure 10% range loss on a hot day from AC use and up to 30% loss in the winter. The winter loss is much more a YMMV and mostly depends on weather cabin heating is used or people make due with the much more efficient heated seats and (if they have it heated wheel, otherwise gloves.)
RE: the range paragraph
I'd like to see a number put on 'acceptable,' and I think it worth mention that Nissan goes by capacity bars, a meter no one outside the company completely understands and that may be changed by Nissan if they see fit to do so.From Spring of 2013 through 2015(when the more heat-resistant “Lizard” pack was introduced), battery degradation became a serious issue mainly for Leaf drivers in Hot local and regional climates, with range loss elsewhere being acceptable.
I would also like to see the Nissan battery packs clearly separate from other manufacturers e.g. Tesla in discussions about degradation. It should be clear that the Nissan pack does not have a TMS and its ramifications on degradation in not-cool climates and charge rate.
My personal take on LEAF packs:
They will reach ~ 63% of new capacity within a ~ a year after the time warranty lapses in a moderate climate (summer daily peaks below 90F, average ambient in the 60s F; do better in cooler climates (a good 10 years until capacity is down to ~ 63%) and considerably worse in hot climates -- about 4 - 6 years.
Regarding EPA miles:
So few people understand them. I tell people the highway range is based on 65 mph, dry, decent roads, and no headwind. The EPA attempt to include hot and cold days is less than helpful to EV drivers because the EPA shoots for an annual effect. I figure 10% range loss on a hot day from AC use and up to 30% loss in the winter. The winter loss is much more a YMMV and mostly depends on weather cabin heating is used or people make due with the much more efficient heated seats and (if they have it heated wheel, otherwise gloves.)
I did make it quite clear that the 40kwh Leaf has no TMS.
I think that keeping 12 bars for at least 3 years is regarded by most Leaf drivers as "acceptable." I'm pretty sure that I also mentioned the capacity bar "gauge." I'll check....yup:
I think that keeping 12 bars for at least 3 years is regarded by most Leaf drivers as "acceptable." I'm pretty sure that I also mentioned the capacity bar "gauge." I'll check....yup:
Later, as the cars lost that new car gleam (and sometimes even sooner) Leaf drivers in warmer climates began to discover that their cars' battery packs were degrading (losing capacity) at an alarming rate, as indicated both by the capacity “gauge” on the dashboard and by actual available driving range. The capacity bar display, which consists of 12 tiny capacity bars adjacent to the 12 much larger charge level bars, began to show missing capacity as soon as a few months after purchase in hotter states like Arizona, but then also began to show missing capacity bars in states like California, Florida, New Mexico...
I do not, but I think the discussion should be tabled since we are not trying to foist our personal version of 'acceptable' on a new owner.LeftieBiker said:I
I think that keeping 12 bars for at least 3 years is regarded by most Leaf drivers as "acceptable."
Lets just put out facts or best guesses as best we can and let people decide for themselves.
I'm actually going by what I do best: observe over the years and remember at least the gist of what gets said here. There have been those of us who found the range inadequate at the bottom of the 12th bar, but I recall no one, ever, writing that they had 12 bars and felt the range loss was too great to be reasonable. Someone just posted in another topic that (s)he is happy with 2 or 3 bars gone after 5+ years. This is partly what Nissan intended with that awful bar "gauge" but it's also a sign that people do expect reasonable losses of capacity over longer periods of time. I will add something about Nissan having higher losses, though.
WetEV
Well-known member
Oils4AsphaultOnly said:You're doing this commute with a leaf right? And I can see that not working. But how does that translate to being applicable to a model 3?
Yes, in a LEAF 2014, 159 miles round trip, left home with full charge, DCQC on the way, workplace L2 to full, DCQC on the way home. As a temporary plan, with a known end date, it worked. For a lifestyle, not for me. I wouldn't recommend it. In fact, run away screaming if someone suggests it for more than a few weeks.
If I got to work early, I could use workplace charging. Before 8AM, I could easily get a charge and be ready for the long trek home that afternoon. If not, add a DCQC. Workplace L2 had/has a waitlist, sometimes waitlist was full before 10AM. Relying on workplace charging? Maybe if you are an early bird. Nearly 100% utilization.
Few people have the 100 plus mile commuting round trip to not be able to do with home charging and a Tesla Model 3, the Chevy Bolt or a Nissan LEAF E+. A few sales types, a few people with really remote houses, and so on. And at a hundred miles plus a day, leasing had better allow for 25,000+ miles a year, a high mileage lease, which sales types already know about.
WetEV
Well-known member
Oils4AsphaultOnly said:That's a theoretical loss. How about an actual one (ventura, CA): https://insideevs.com/chevrolet-bolt-battery-lost-capacity-70000-miles/
So should still have 200 mile range after 150k miles.
The singular of data isn't anecdote. Sure, some will do very well. I own a 2014 LEAF that has done very well. So? Have a large enough sample to be meaningful? Have you looked for people with early capacity loss? There are such, you should know. Or you can learn, fairly quickly.
http://www.mychevybolt.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=3&t=8404
Oils4AsphaultOnly said:Having an Active TMS really helps slow down battery degradation.
Not in wild dreams, in Yukon. Not at all, near Seattle where I live. Perhaps a little in the Bay area. More in LA. Probably enough to pay for the extra stuff and risk in Phoenix. Even more so in Lake Havasu City. Yes, a lot, in Death Valley.
WetEV
Well-known member
SageBrush said:We have the Tesla in my Sig. It is a fine car for trips. I often use it to travel 250 miles each way in a 4 season climate and have charged en-route twice or so. Both times I started the trip will less than a fully charged battery.
Report back when it is 8 years old.
Oils4AsphaultOnly
Well-known member
WetEV said:Oils4AsphaultOnly said:That's a theoretical loss. How about an actual one (ventura, CA): https://insideevs.com/chevrolet-bolt-battery-lost-capacity-70000-miles/
So should still have 200 mile range after 150k miles.
The singular of data isn't anecdote. Sure, some will do very well. I own a 2014 LEAF that has done very well. So? Have a large enough sample to be meaningful? Have you looked for people with early capacity loss? There are such, you should know. Or you can learn, fairly quickly.
http://www.mychevybolt.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=3&t=8404
Oils4AsphaultOnly said:Having an Active TMS really helps slow down battery degradation.
Not in wild dreams, in Yukon. Not at all, near Seattle where I live. Perhaps a little in the Bay area. More in LA. Probably enough to pay for the extra stuff and risk in Phoenix. Even more so in Lake Havasu City. Yes, a lot, in Death Valley.
The lack of reported battery issues is what I'm relying on. That posting you cited is indicative of a cell issue that should be covered by warranty, not actual degradation of the pack as designed. Mary Barra recently claimed that GM has yet to replace a single Volt nor Bolt battery pack due to excessive degradation. I think GM and Tesla know a thing or two about taking care of their batteries so that drivers can rely on them to deliver the range that they need (defective cell issues not-with-standing).
You're letting your experience with a Leaf color your expectations of what others have done with their battery pack designs.
Oils4AsphaultOnly
Well-known member
WetEV said:Oils4AsphaultOnly said:You're doing this commute with a leaf right? And I can see that not working. But how does that translate to being applicable to a model 3?
Yes, in a LEAF 2014, 159 miles round trip, left home with full charge, DCQC on the way, workplace L2 to full, DCQC on the way home. As a temporary plan, with a known end date, it worked. For a lifestyle, not for me. I wouldn't recommend it. In fact, run away screaming if someone suggests it for more than a few weeks.
If I got to work early, I could use workplace charging. Before 8AM, I could easily get a charge and be ready for the long trek home that afternoon. If not, add a DCQC. Workplace L2 had/has a waitlist, sometimes waitlist was full before 10AM. Relying on workplace charging? Maybe if you are an early bird. Nearly 100% utilization.
Few people have the 100 plus mile commuting round trip to not be able to do with home charging and a Tesla Model 3, the Chevy Bolt or a Nissan LEAF E+. A few sales types, a few people with really remote houses, and so on. And at a hundred miles plus a day, leasing had better allow for 25,000+ miles a year, a high mileage lease, which sales types already know about.
You have a 2014 leaf (with 84 mile EPA range) for a 159 mile round-trip commute?! And you're projecting that experience onto others who are considering 238-mile EPA range and 310-mile EPA range EV's for their 200 mile round-trip commutes?!
Apple meet orange.
WetEV
Well-known member
LeftieBiker said:So I should cite a range of 40 miles for the 40kwh Leaf because that's what one down in capacity to just above warranty replacement will get in frigid weather?
Show your work.
LeftieBiker said:The cite I requested, BTW, was for a Bolt only getting less than 150 miles of range in Hawaii. The lower speed driving should cancel out most of the A/C use, so it seems you're being a bit silly...
Battery will lose capacity with time and miles, even in Hawaii. Actually, probably faster in Hawaii, due to higher average temperature. And TMS will help less, due to lower range of temperatures. If the TMS starts cooling at 35C, and the battery never gets warmer than the daily high (usual with a moderate commute), and the daily high is 31 C, then the TMS almost never turns on during the day and while driving. Yet there might be some gain. While the night time low is about 26 C, the TMS is reported cool the battery to 27C. Would be a tiny gain from a TMS.
WetEV
Well-known member
Oils4AsphaultOnly said:The lack of reported battery issues is what I'm relying on.
So how many LEAF 2015 reported battery issues were there in 2016 or 2017? You're letting your experience with a LEAF color your expectations. Especially your experiences with the 2011 and 2012.
Oils4AsphaultOnly said:That posting you cited is indicative of a cell issue that should be covered by warranty, not actual degradation of the pack as designed. Mary Barra recently claimed that GM has yet to replace a single Volt nor Bolt battery pack due to excessive degradation.
GM got the chemistry right the first time. Credit GM. Also, the Volt was a plug in hybrid. Apple vs orange.
The Bolt is too new. Only a disaster of a battery pack would be showing enough degradation at this time. Yes, like Nissan's 2011 and 2012 battery pack. You're letting your experience with a LEAF color your expectations.
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