AAA confirms what Tesla, BMW, Nissan electric car owners suspected — cold weather saps EV range

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Didn't read the article but guessing methodology was flawed. It is rare that I have "good" weather to test these types of things but this Winter has been very convenient and even very cold (for me anyway) of mid teens is showing no more than a 25% drop in range (from my higher than normal Summer average) and that includes blasting heat from start to finish on my morning commute. (I do wear shorts and t-shirt to work EVERY day)

What should be told is that road conditions play a much bigger part in range loss. Snow, rain, etc. is a MUCH bigger issue than mere cold weather.
 
golfcart said:
SageBrush said:
AAA did not test winter range, it tested short drive winter efficiency by drivers who reheat the cabin every trip.

How far off do you think that is from a typical commuters behavior? The average American commute is about 25 minutes and I suspect most people hop in the car and blast the heat until the cabin warms up.

That is EXACTLY what I do but my commute is 16-18 mins and 11.9 to 12.2 miles. With temps in mid teens, seeing "almost" a 25% drop in range. Nowhere near 40%...
 
SageBrush said:
Testing a modern EV as if it is a degraded 24 kWh LEAF makes this "study" FUD
Using cabin heating in an EV instead of seat heating makes the driver a fool.
This view is not doing any EV adoption desires any favors.

I thought it was complete nonsense when i bought my leaf years back and still do that the "proper" way to drive an EV is to compromise with heavy gloves and a hat as if you're in some hoopty with non-functioning heating.

Using cabin heat is something we've been doing for a century and will continue to do so. No amount of seat heating or steering wheel heating is going to stop people's desire to be in a 72 F cabin, whether it's 40 outside or -20. And if the EV says this is unrealistic, they'll stick with their ICE.
golfcart said:
And if someone buys a used Leaf, Soul, Focus, or i3 EV expecting 80 miles of range, commutes around 40 miles daily using the heat like they would any other car, and is shocked to find that they can barely make it home in the winter they are fools...

Nothing new. I read this same view on these forums a good seven years ago. I refused to partake in such shenanigans and when it became apparent that my EV could not deliver the experience I had grown up with (quite literally), it got the boot. I fully expect I'll go back to an EV in the nearish future, but I will assume its stated range is, in the winter, 50% of claimed and be sure that such a figure works for me.
SageBrush said:
This is not complicated: Even the EPA realizes that a range test should be continuous driving and not multiple cold soaks.
Other than a few min of high MPG consumption while an ICE warms up a cold soak doesn't bother it because it has infinite cabin heat, so there is no need to do multiple short trips.

Yes, in theory a 250 range EV could do better than 125 in super cold temps if it does it as a single trip. But if you're doing multiple trips throughout the day, and they all include heating the cabin (the horror!), range is going to get smashed.
 
I am tired of seeing mainstream TV and print reports about EVs that "they are not as good as ICE"..

They cannot tell us that a little cold can almost cut range in half... Only if the reporter blasted the heat and tore down the interstate doing 80...

I did not read the article but I will puke if I hear one more report of "Range ANXIETY".... Sounds like a Mel Brooks movie..
 
EatsShootsandLeafs said:
SageBrush said:
This is not complicated: Even the EPA realizes that a range test should be continuous driving and not multiple cold soaks.
Other than a few min of high MPG consumption while an ICE warms up a cold soak doesn't bother it because it has infinite cabin heat, so there is no need to do multiple short trips.

Yes, in theory a 250 range EV could do better than 125 in super cold temps if it does it as a single trip. But if you're doing multiple trips throughout the day, and they all include heating the cabin (the horror!), range is going to get smashed.

This is my point. Most people drive to work just far enough to get the cabin warm then park it until it is cold again. Then go to lunch then let the car sit until it's cold. Then go back to work, then let the car sit until it's cold. Then drive home and let the car sit until it is cold. I never said or implied that this study was 100% accurate and should replace any EPA range tests, I just said that it might not be that far off from a typical commuters experience and is a useful exercise that merits discussion.

Sage is smart enough to understand this but is a little too snarky to just acknowledge the point and move on.
 
DaveinOlyWA said:
That is EXACTLY what I do but my commute is 16-18 mins and 11.9 to 12.2 miles. With temps in mid teens, seeing "almost" a 25% drop in range. Nowhere near 40%...

If you had read the .pdf document Sage posted you would see that at 20 F the Leaf saw a roughly 30% reduction in range (fig 51). It says it was a 2018 Leaf but I could not find which model or whether it has the cold weather package in the document so that is a big unknown. A reduction of 25% (like you see) is not quite 30% but it isn't that far off. I see a reduction of about 30% if I use the heat but I don't have the heat pump on my 2015 S so maybe that isn't unexpected.

The 40% figure was an average from all of the cars in the study mostly driven by the high values for the Bolt and I3.
 
I've only had my Leaf for a couple of weeks, but I have found a huge difference between near-freezing weather and real cold. Close to freezing, the heat pump requires about 500 W to maintain a comfortable temperature and keep the windows clear, and except at very high SOC regen will take care of almost all of the braking. At -25°C, the heat pump is useless and it takes 3 kW to keep the windows clear, and regen is almost non-existant until you are down to 50%, and even then it is mediocre.

Near 0°C, I drove 80 km and went from 90% to 35% SOC. At -25°C, a 32 km trip at slower speed took the car from 98% to 48%. 40% range loss doesn't sound too far off. I was expecting this, and it is part of the reason I bought a 2016 instead of a 2012-2014 that was down a bar or two for less than half of the price.
 
golfcart said:
Sage is smart enough to understand this but is a little too snarky to just acknowledge the point and move on.
I don't dispute your scenario at all -- I completely agree that it could happen to people who have low battery capacity EVs and have not learned how to optimize heating use in an EV. My point is that a RANGE test is different than a drive around town in the winter with multiple cold soaks test.

Did you read the test method ? Is that how you road trip ?
 
Titanium48 said:
IAt -25°C, the heat pump is useless and it takes 3 kW to keep the windows clear
Good information, thanks.
So about 30 Wh/km. That is about a 20% penalty,
 
SageBrush said:
golfcart said:
Sage is smart enough to understand this but is a little too snarky to just acknowledge the point and move on.
I don't dispute your scenario at all -- I completely agree that it could happen to people who have not learned how to optimize heating use in an EV. My point is that a RANGE test is different than a drive around town in the winter with multiple cold soaks test.

Did you read the test method ? Is that how you road trip ?

I don't road trip in my Leaf. I commute, run errands, and cart my kid around. My car rarely does more than 30 miles at one time and the cabin generally cools before I get back in and start driving again for my winter driving. Even with the PHEV we go more than 50 miles straight about 4x a year.

If you want to define range specifically as how far a car can go in one continuous use before needing to be recharged then I get your point. My point is that you are choosing a rare scenario for most drivers. I would wager that most folks drive more like what I am describing on 90% of days. Given that fact, I think this study is useful if given the proper context.
 
golfcart said:
I don't road trip in my Leaf. I commute
You didn't answer -- did you read the study method I posted for you in the OP ?
If not, please read it before you post again in this thread.
 
SageBrush said:
golfcart said:
I don't road trip in my Leaf. I commute
You didn't answer -- did you read the study method I posted for you in the OP ?
If not, please read it before you post again in this thread.

I read the article and the .pdf document you posted describing the methodology. I stand by my statements regarding the usefulness of the study. If I chose to not post again in the thread it'll be because there isn't much more to say at this point...
 
No one has to read anything to post here. It does help to know what you are writing about, but that isn't mandatory.

I do all short to medium trips, usually with two cold soaks. I haven't measured it, but my range drop is roughly 25% above freezing, 35% or so down to single digits, and possibly 40% below that. I've only taken a couple of short drives in that last category. I agree that it's inappropriate to expect people to drive without cabin heat, or with little heat, although they should definitely know how to reduce it, use partial recirculate if possible, and use the seat and wheel heaters - not for everyday driving, but for low-range emergencies.
 
golfcart said:
I read the article and the .pdf document you posted describing the methodology.
Then you hopefully noticed that they followed the EPA drive cycles, but mangled the protocol for establishing driving RANGE

There is good reason that the EPA has a RANGE protocol for long drives, and it emphatically does not represent YOUR commuting habits. When people buy 250+ mile RANGE EVs they have road tripping in mind; they do not care about the 2-3 kWh hour heating penalty they incur driving around the city during their commuting. AAA is telling their readers that the practical range on a 25F day on a road trip is about half of rated and that is BS.

Unlike you, I own and drive an EV that I use for road trips of ~ 250 miles and I live in a cold (but not artic) climate. If I pre-condition the car a little, I consume ~ EPA expected despite running winter tyres, meaning ~ 250 Wh/mile. In nice weather with summer tyres I consume about 220 Wh/mile. I use cabin heating to supplement heat seating and to keep the windows clear. The cabin is cool and I am comfortable.
 
SageBrush said:
golfcart said:
I read the article and the .pdf document you posted describing the methodology.
Then you hopefully noticed that they followed the EPA drive cycles, but mangled the protocol for establishing driving RANGE

There is good reason that the EPA has a RANGE protocol for long drives, and it emphatically does not represent YOUR commuting habits. When people buy 250+ mile RANGE EVs they have road tripping in mind; they do not care about the 2-3 kWh hour heating penalty they incur driving around the city during their commuting. AAA is telling their readers that the practical range on a 25F day on a road trip is about half of rated and that is BS.

Unlike you, I own and drive an EV that I use for road trips of ~ 250 miles and I live in a cold (but not artic) climate. If I pre-condition the car a little, I consume ~ EPA expected despite running winter tyres, meaning ~ 250 Wh/mile. In nice weather with summer tyres I consume about 220 Wh/mile. I use cabin heating to supplement heat seating and to keep the windows clear. The cabin is cool and I am comfortable.

Keep arguing against that straw man, you're doing great.
 
golfcart said:
Keep arguing against that straw man, you're doing great.
As for you, I'm going to recommend to the AAA that they write a follow-up article: "It takes Electric Energy to Heat up a Cabin after a Cold Soak in an EV."

Who wudda thunk !?!!
 
SageBrush said:
golfcart said:
Keep arguing against that straw man, you're doing great.
As for you, I'm going to recommend to the AAA that they write a follow-up article: "It takes Electric Energy to Heat up a Cabin after a Cold Soak in an EV."

Who wudda thunk !?!!

They already wrote that article... hence this discussion. I thought that was obvious at this point from their testing method.

But sure, write AAA and cc me I'd love to see the response. Be sure to call the average consumer a "fool" as many times as possible for using the heater when it is cold outside like they would in their ICE vehicle (that the EV is so much better than). You might even want to express your concern for them "heating against their own self interest", that'd be a great line it has worked so well in other arenas. And call them dumbasses for not having the option to pre-condition the cabin at the office, mall, grocery store, or restaurant when they are going about their normal routine. It isn't the cars fault they only get 70% of the EPA range between charges during a normal work week, they just haven't structured their lives properly around their EV. :lol:
 
How about you two cut it out? Make all the scathing rebuttals you like, just severely limit the personal insults.

The report is a big step in the right direction. It's a shame it didn't come out 5 years ago, so that by now the issue would be common knowledge, along with the steps needed to mitigate it - and maybe some successful lawsuits against dealerships for fraudulent sales tactics.

Yeah, right. I'd better get to bed - I'm overtired.
 
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