Is an unlocked, powered up outlet free game?

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Just call me old fashioned, but the word I learned for taking something of value from someone else without asking is .....Stealing.

The fact that I have completed a transaction at a business to purchase something for sale at the posted price (a cup of coffee, a pair of shoes, a parking space) doesn't give me the right to help myself to other goods owned by that business that aren't marked for sale. If the business INTENDED that my purchase would entitle me to additional items for free, they would make that abundantly clear.

If I see a nice shop vac in the maintenance closet of the parking garage that happens not to be locked, I guess I can just take that home with me after my day's parking. If there's a tub of flowers that catches my eye in front of the bagel shop where I just got lunch, I could just throw it in the back of my Leaf. In fact, anything not under lock and key is available for my taking. Please explain the moral difference between this and what you are proposing.
 
Do you ask every time you park on private property to see if it is OK?
Or do you drive a couple blocks to find a parking meter?
Do you look for a sign that says free parking to make sure it is OK?
It does after all cost more to maintain parking areas than L1 will even come close to costing.
And yet the business is happy to maintain a nice parking area free of charge.
Why would the minor cost of L1 be excluded?

I honestly think the L1 availability will expand in far more areas for this purpose than others lock them down.
I think you all hardliners are making a big deal out of a non-issue.

H--- the business spends far more on the clown on the sidewalk waving the sign than L1 would be as a marketing tool.
 
I can see both sides of this and I think the ultimate answer is "It Depends".

I'm originally from the upper peninsula of Michigan - and this is part of the "land of block heaters and 120V plugs in rows in many parking lots for the use of anyone that needs one."

If there is an outlet installed for the benefit of customers or others that park in the lot then charge away if the outlet can be safely used.

If not, get permission to use the outlet. If not provided for use and/or no permission to use an outlet, it's theft.
 
Personally I'll never plugin unless I get permission - except in emergencies.

ps : How about all the gas cars that are stealing our clean air ? How about industrial lobbies that can bribe the politicians to make such acts legal ?

If only we had as much respect for common resources/property as we have for private property in this country, the world would have been in a better shape.
 
Well, it seems to me that a person doing what is described here could be called inconsiderate, and possibly a thief.

It is possible that those who park on my private property without invitation could find that their car is gone when they return. But, true, there is no effective way I can stop them from parking there.

Even parking in "public property" but blocking my access would be ... not nice, and could result in both a ticket and a tow.

But, each person decides what kind of person they will be, and what risks to take.

Some think it is OK to jaywalk, to double-park, to run a red light, or even to take "excess" cash from a bank. True, some of these are more risky than others.

Is it now that a $1 theft OK, but a $10 theft is not?

Or, if one is unlikely to get caught, that makes it "more" OK?

No wonder humanoids cannot learn to live peacefully together.
 
Not to continue beating a dead horse, but one of the reasons that many garages have outlets all over the place is due to building codes. And making all of them secure would not only cost a lot, but then be a pain for whenever they wanted to use them for maintenance.

I've asked at many different garages for my Xebra (much lower power requirements than the Leaf) and while many have welcomed it, there are some garages that have said no. Most of their "no" reasons are completely unfounded, but it IS private property, those outlets were NOT installed for my use, and whatever reason they have for not wanting me to is their own business and I'm not justified in using that power.
 
blorg said:
Not to continue beating a dead horse, but one of the reasons that many garages have outlets all over the place is due to building codes. And making all of them secure would not only cost a lot, but then be a pain for whenever they wanted to use them for maintenance.

I've asked at many different garages for my Xebra (much lower power requirements than the Leaf) and while many have welcomed it, there are some garages that have said no. Most of their "no" reasons are completely unfounded, but it IS private property, those outlets were NOT installed for my use, and whatever reason they have for not wanting me to is their own business and I'm not justified in using that power.

Very solid point, also many don't have insurance for EV charging and can be sued if there is an issue. If one trips a critical breaker in a business then the property owner could sue them as well. This is such clear cut common sense and I can't believe there is any debate over this whatsoever. It seems some people were raised with subjective values and a good dose of denial and justification. It's sad to see people joining the EV community with such an outlook on basic courtesy and respect for private property.
 
LEAFer said:
Why does building code require them ?

Building codes require all kinds of things, both for safety as well as standardization (and some that are completely idiotic). We had a remodel on our house a couple years ago, and the electrical codes now require many more outlets than they used to. Something like every corner has to have an outlet within 10 feet or so, can't remember the details, but they actually had to ADD outlets to any of the rooms where they were doing significant work simply to meet the code.

I'm sure garages have a different code for this, but I would assume they still have wiring codes that require certain locations for outlets.
 
I could understand the restriction as there might be ten outlets on a single 20a circuit. That is fine for the maintenance guy plugging in one spot at a time. But if all are supplying EVs the circuit breaker would trip out. Eventually they could just have a remote switch, key switch or a simple card that says NO EV.

In time I think the owners will find it is beneficial to have EV charging. And I think the owners will also find the low cost method will be a bunch of simple dedicated L1 5-20R instead of $10,000+ to wire in a couple 40a EVSEs for people to fight over.
 
This is such clear cut common sense and I can't believe there is any debate over this whatsoever. It seems some people were raised with subjective values and a good dose of denial and justification. It's sad to see people joining the EV community with such an outlook on basic courtesy and respect for private property.

I agree. There some serious rationalizing going on here. I guess some people will justify anything, including taking what is not their's.
 
Jimmydreams said:
If you're paying for parking in a garage, then what you pay provides you the lights, elevators, etc. I would argue that the outlet (again, NOT locked and NOT marked) is just like the elevator: I paid for it, I can use it. If a business provides parking for it's customers and there is an outlet there, who is to say it's not provided for the use of the patrons of the business that already provided the parking?
It is likely that passenger elevators were installed with the intention of transporting people from one level to another. It is less likely, at this time, that outlets were installed with the intention of charging electric vehicles. It's not entirely clear to me what the intention of outlets in the parking garage is, probably for use by maintenance crew or such.
 
Train said:
This is such clear cut common sense and I can't believe there is any debate over this whatsoever. It seems some people were raised with subjective values and a good dose of denial and justification. It's sad to see people joining the EV community with such an outlook on basic courtesy and respect for private property.

I agree. There some serious rationalizing going on here. I guess some people will justify anything, including taking what is not their's.


If you chose to take without asking then do it but don't justify it and call it what it is, stealing, just don't rationalize the crap out of it in every far-reaching manner. The only thing worse than a thief is a person that steals and then attempts to rationalize their actions with justification. The irony is that those same people are usually the type to flip out if someone were to do the same thing to them, making them hypocrites as well. We have plenty of those in politics today:) Stealing is stealing folks and there are no gradients in the process where it tips to become "ok".
 
Collis P. Huntington was a railroad magnate of the 1800's.
He was considered to be " 'ruthless, grim, cold, crafty,'
whom someone neatly described as 'scrupulously dishonest.' "

Allegedly, his Code of Ethics was:

"Whatever is not nailed down is mine.
Whatever I can pry loose is not nailed down."

quoteinvestigator.com
 
Rokeby said:
Collis P. Huntington was a railroad magnate of the 1800's.
He was considered to be " 'ruthless, grim, cold, crafty,'
whom someone neatly described as 'scrupulously dishonest.' "

Allegedly, his Code of Ethics was:

"Whatever is not nailed down is mine.
Whatever I can pry loose is not nailed down."

quoteinvestigator.com

I like his reasoning..........However, I bet he never had to test his theory with the old 1800's equalizer.... "Quickest Draw, WINS"

Using this thought process one might assume that plugging in establishes the crime when it is the current drawn that would cause the theft.
How would a current draw from one outlet be established and presented in a legal courtroom setting? I guess if you had a handy legal degree or cared to take a Public Defender by your side you could argue in court. It would be up to the Prosecutor and Cop to establish that something of value was actually stolen. I'm not sure how a single unattended plug would allow anyone to even establish that current was drawn.

And as we all know the Defendant has the right to remain silent.... :ugeek:
 
Carlos said:
Rokeby said:
Collis P. Huntington was a railroad magnate of the 1800's.
He was considered to be " 'ruthless, grim, cold, crafty,'
whom someone neatly described as 'scrupulously dishonest.' "

Allegedly, his Code of Ethics was:

"Whatever is not nailed down is mine.
Whatever I can pry loose is not nailed down."

quoteinvestigator.com

I like his reasoning..........However, I bet he never had to test his theory with the old 1800's equalizer.... "Quickest Draw, WINS"

Using this thought process one might assume that plugging in establishes the crime when it is the current drawn that would cause the theft.
How would a current draw from one outlet be established and presented in a legal courtroom setting? I guess if you had a handy legal degree or cared to take a Public Defender by your side you could argue in court. It would be up to the Prosecutor and Cop to establish that something of value was actually stolen. I'm not sure how a single unattended plug would allow anyone to even establish that current was drawn.

And as we all know the Defendant has the right to remain silent.... :ugeek:


LIke shooting at someone and missing, or attempted murder. A person was not killed. Or if one grabs an item at a store and runs to the door but is stopped but did not "leave" with the item. etc, etc. "I was just plugging in to test the outlet feel officer"
 
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