GetOffYourGas
Posts: 2051
Joined: Tue Dec 20, 2011 6:56 pm
Delivery Date: 09 Mar 2012
Location: Syracuse, NY

Re: Hyundai Kona Electric

Fri Feb 15, 2019 10:25 am

WetEV wrote:
LeftieBiker wrote:I don't read those sites as much as you might expect so I haven't noticed. Why don't I read them? See above. Also things like referring to a bigger battery as 'providing more horsepower'...
A bigger battery can provide more horsepower.

There is a limit as to how much power you can take out of a given battery. It is often expressed as the "C rate", which just means the "capacity of the battery in kWh)" / "power charge or discharge".

To get to higher horsepower, you need a larger battery, or a battery that can withstand a higher C rate. Or both.
Exactly. And BEV batteries are engineered for Energy density rather than Power density. PHEVs use Power dense batteries so they can propel the car with battery only despite a smaller capacity. This is also why many of the hot rod conversions use a Chevy Volt battery - lots of power, relatively little weight. It doesn't go as far, but it doesn't matter. It only needs to go about a quarter of a mile...
~Brian

EV Fleet:
2011 Torqeedo Travel 1003 electric outboard on a 22' sailboat
2012 Leaf SV (traded for Bolt)
2015 C-Max Energi (302A package)
2017 Bolt Premier

Triggerhappy007
Posts: 47
Joined: Tue Jan 01, 2019 8:08 pm
Delivery Date: 01 Jan 2019

Re: Hyundai Kona Electric

Fri Feb 15, 2019 11:11 am

First Kona EV was delivered to a doctor in Maryland.
2019 Leaf SL ProPilot
2018 Pacifica Hybrid

LeftieBiker
Moderator
Posts: 13238
Joined: Wed May 22, 2013 3:17 am
Delivery Date: 30 Apr 2018
Location: Upstate New York, US

Re: Hyundai Kona Electric

Fri Feb 15, 2019 11:38 am

WetEV wrote:
LeftieBiker wrote:I don't read those sites as much as you might expect so I haven't noticed. Why don't I read them? See above. Also things like referring to a bigger battery as 'providing more horsepower'...
A bigger battery can provide more horsepower.

There is a limit as to how much power you can take out of a given battery. It is often expressed as the "C rate", which just means the "capacity of the battery in kWh)" / "power charge or discharge".

To get to higher horsepower, you need a larger battery, or a battery that can withstand a higher C rate. Or both.
The 2018 Leaf has more horsepower because of inverter and motor modifications, not because of the C rate of the pack. They did nothing to raise the HP of the 30kwh pack. Maybe there were marginal conditions in which the 24kwh pack would have gotten a bit of voltage sag with more power being drawn, but it's almost never the size of the pack that determines the power output of the motor in a non-race EV.
Scarlet Ember 2018 Leaf SL W/ Pro Pilot
2009 Vectrix VX-1 W/18 Leaf modules, & 3 EZIP E-bicycles.
BAFX OBDII Dongle
PLEASE don't PM me with Leaf questions. Just post in the topic that seems most appropriate.

WetEV
Posts: 3142
Joined: Fri May 04, 2012 8:25 am
Delivery Date: 16 Feb 2014
Location: Near Seattle, WA

Re: Hyundai Kona Electric

Fri Feb 15, 2019 10:51 pm

LeftieBiker wrote:
WetEV wrote:To get to higher horsepower, you need a larger battery, or a battery that can withstand a higher C rate. Or both.
The 2018 Leaf has more horsepower because of inverter and motor modifications, not because of the C rate of the pack. They did nothing to raise the HP of the 30kwh pack. Maybe there were marginal conditions in which the 24kwh pack would have gotten a bit of voltage sag with more power being drawn, but it's almost never the size of the pack that determines the power output of the motor in a non-race EV.
C rate of the 30 kWh Leaf pack is just about the same as with the 40kWh LEAF pack. Oddly enough, the 60kWh ePlus has almost the same C rate. As the pack gets larger, you can draw more power and maintain the same C rate. C rate limit is there to minimize localized internal heating. So maybe it isn't so odd.

Sure, you could increase the power of the motor and inverter without increasing the size of the pack. That would increase the C rate, which would do bad things to battery life. Just shorter battery life, if just a littler higher C rate. Loud, smelly, expensive and hot things if you push the battery pack too hard. Or unless you also change the cells to something closer to a PHEV cells that are designed to handle more power, which would increase cost and reduce range. Like in a race EV. Like the VW Pike Peaks car, with 48kWh of PHEV cells and 500kW of motor. That is a C rate slightly over 10. Chevy Volt cells are pushed to a C rate of 15 for drag racers. Don't do this for much more than a 1/4 mile. And don't try it with LEAF cells.

Want lower cost energy dense cells? Then the C rate limit is going to be lower. Using energy dense cells, the way to raise motor kW and keep the same cells and keep the same C rate is to increase battery kWh. Might raise battery size without a motor power increase, to get longer battery life at a lower C rate. Unlikely to accept less battery life just to get more motor power, unless you also shorten the battery capacity warranty.

The 24kWh LEAF pushed the batteries fairly hard. Do you think Nissan with the 30kWh pack should have:
A) Drop the C rate to improve battery lifetime (which they did)?
or
B) Increase the motor kW to make the car faster, and shorten the battery life?

Yes, the motor and inverter also have to change to get more power. Just keep telling everyone that. Maybe they will forget the battery issue.
WetEV
#49
Most everything around here is wet during the rainy season. And the rainy season is long.
2012 Leaf SL Red (Totaled)
2014 Leaf SL Red
2019 eTron Blue

LeftieBiker
Moderator
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Re: Hyundai Kona Electric

Fri Feb 15, 2019 11:06 pm

Dogged, aren't you? I complained that a net "journalist" attributed a HP increase to a larger battery. That was wrong. The above argument is about something else entirely - battery longevity under increased C rate - as if people drive their Leafs with the pedals mashed to the floor. What you wrote is pretty much accurate, but it also has nothing to do with my complaint. Please find another chew toy.
Scarlet Ember 2018 Leaf SL W/ Pro Pilot
2009 Vectrix VX-1 W/18 Leaf modules, & 3 EZIP E-bicycles.
BAFX OBDII Dongle
PLEASE don't PM me with Leaf questions. Just post in the topic that seems most appropriate.

GRA
Posts: 11049
Joined: Mon Sep 19, 2011 1:49 pm
Location: East side of San Francisco Bay

Re: Hyundai Kona Electric

Thu Feb 21, 2019 6:12 pm

IEVS:
Hyundai Can’t Ship You That Promised Kona Electric Due To Crazy Demand
https://insideevs.com/hyundai-cant-ship ... zy-demand/
Although it just sold its first example of the Kona Electric in the U.S., it seems Hyundai has a hit on its hands. And it’s little wonder, seeing as the all-electric crossover tops our list of range-per-purchase-dollar and has been edging out competitors like the Chevy Bolt in road tests. This is, of course, a great thing for the company, but it also creates some problems for some prospective buyers: they aren’t available for purchase from their local dealers in most of the country.

Initially, the plan was to begin initial sales in California and expand to the so-called ZEV states. . . .

In November, however, hope blossomed for customers nationwide as we heard that the Korean automaker said it will also ship the Kona Electric to dealers in non-ZEV states if they have a “sold order.” The celebrations that followed may have been premature.

A would-be customer reported on the InsideEVs Forum that their attempts to secure a car through local dealers were proving unsuccessful. So, we got in touch with the automaker to see what the situation was. The result? A statement that, at least for now, those in non-ZEV states may be out of luck. Said the company:
  • Given the current demand for Kona Electric in California and other ZEV states, we aren’t able to support volume sales in all non-ZEV states at this time. In the near future, we do plan to offer Kona Electric in non-ZEV states that exhibit higher electric vehicle demand. . . .
C&D:
2019 Chevrolet Bolt EV and 2019 Hyundai Kona Electric Battle To Find the Best Alternative to the Tesla Model 3
But wait. Maybe don't cancel that Tesla Model 3 reservation just yet.
https://www.caranddriver.com/reviews/co ... -electric/

Short version, Kona comes out on top. Lots of bitching about current lack of charging sites etc. compared to SCs.
Guy [I have lots of experience designing/selling off-grid AE systems, some using EVs but don't own one. Local trips are by foot, bike and/or rapid transit].

The 'best' is the enemy of 'good enough'. Copper shot, not Silver bullets.

iPlug
Posts: 420
Joined: Thu Apr 28, 2016 6:47 pm
Delivery Date: 25 Apr 2016
Location: Rocklin, CA

Re: Hyundai Kona Electric

Sun Feb 24, 2019 4:13 pm

Our local dealership has a few Kona EV limited trim editions in today.

Dealer called to notify and ask if we wanted to take a test drive. Curiously, they don't show on the dealer website.

The usual sales pressure used on the voice message they left - to come in before someone else gets them.

We're holding out until April when our 2016 Leaf SV gets turned in after lease. Looking at leasing another Leaf (40 kWh) or leasing a Kona EV SEL or Niro EV. Not holding our breath on getting a good offer on the Kona or Niro since so new, but who knows.
'19 Model 3 SR+ (own), '19 Leaf SV (leased), '12 Plug-in Prius (sold 3/19), '16 Leaf SV (prior lease), 11.43kW Solar PV (16MWh/yr real production), 20.5 SEER/13.0 HSPF ducted air-source heat pump, 3.70 UEF heat pump water heater, Induction Cooktop

GRA
Posts: 11049
Joined: Mon Sep 19, 2011 1:49 pm
Location: East side of San Francisco Bay

Re: Hyundai Kona Electric

Sun Feb 24, 2019 4:58 pm

iPlug wrote:Our local dealership has a few Kona EV limited trim editions in today.

Dealer called to notify and ask if we wanted to take a test drive. Curiously, they don't show on the dealer website.

The usual sales pressure used on the voice message they left - to come in before someone else gets them.

We're holding out until April when our 2016 Leaf SV gets turned in after lease. Looking at leasing another Leaf (40 kWh) or leasing a Kona EV SEL or Niro EV. Not holding our breath on getting a good offer on the Kona or Niro since so new, but who knows.
Is the new Soul not on your list as well?
Guy [I have lots of experience designing/selling off-grid AE systems, some using EVs but don't own one. Local trips are by foot, bike and/or rapid transit].

The 'best' is the enemy of 'good enough'. Copper shot, not Silver bullets.

iPlug
Posts: 420
Joined: Thu Apr 28, 2016 6:47 pm
Delivery Date: 25 Apr 2016
Location: Rocklin, CA

Re: Hyundai Kona Electric

Sun Feb 24, 2019 5:19 pm

GRA wrote:
iPlug wrote:Our local dealership has a few Kona EV limited trim editions in today.

Dealer called to notify and ask if we wanted to take a test drive. Curiously, they don't show on the dealer website.

The usual sales pressure used on the voice message they left - to come in before someone else gets them.

We're holding out until April when our 2016 Leaf SV gets turned in after lease. Looking at leasing another Leaf (40 kWh) or leasing a Kona EV SEL or Niro EV. Not holding our breath on getting a good offer on the Kona or Niro since so new, but who knows.
Is the new Soul not on your list as well?
We'll take a look if it is on dealer lots in late March or April, but not hopeful.

The new lease will continue to be my wife's daily driver, and her response was as I expected when I showed it to her: "ewww". Too boxy.

Not a deal breaker for me, being more interested in function and value (I still drive a plug-in Prius), so I played up the specs to her, and she says she will take a look at it.
'19 Model 3 SR+ (own), '19 Leaf SV (leased), '12 Plug-in Prius (sold 3/19), '16 Leaf SV (prior lease), 11.43kW Solar PV (16MWh/yr real production), 20.5 SEER/13.0 HSPF ducted air-source heat pump, 3.70 UEF heat pump water heater, Induction Cooktop

GRA
Posts: 11049
Joined: Mon Sep 19, 2011 1:49 pm
Location: East side of San Francisco Bay

Re: Hyundai Kona Electric

Sun Feb 24, 2019 5:23 pm

iPlug wrote:
GRA wrote: We'll take a look if it is on dealer lots in late March or April, but not hopeful.

The new lease will continue to be my wife's daily driver, and her response was as I expected when I showed it to her: "ewww". Too boxy.

Not a deal breaker for me, being more interested in function and value (I still drive a plug-in Prius), so I played up the specs to her, and she says she will take a look at it.
I don't think you'll go wrong with any of the Korean jobs, or the Bolt FTM. I'd be leery of the LEAF in your climate, but I take it you've found the likely degradation of a 40kWh LEAF acceptable, given your wife's range needs and the fact you're leasing?
Guy [I have lots of experience designing/selling off-grid AE systems, some using EVs but don't own one. Local trips are by foot, bike and/or rapid transit].

The 'best' is the enemy of 'good enough'. Copper shot, not Silver bullets.

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