Subaru Crosstrek PHEV

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SageBrush said:
GRA said:
the Prime wouldn't work for me owing to its lack of a true hold mode - I want to be able to control when and where to emit as above.
Are you sure about that ?
Yes. It wouldn't be acceptable to me for other reasons as well, but the lack of a true hold mode is one of them. HEV mode alone doesn't cut it. For the same reason, I'd want a 2013+ Volt rather than a 2011-2012, as only the former have a true hold mode (the latter just had mountain mode). But unless my Forester craps out and dies (unlikely) or it gets totaled, I'll wait to replace it until a full ZEV meets my needs.
 
SageBrush said:
GRA said:
SageBrush said:
Are you sure about that ?
Yes.
Well then, continue to bask in your ignorance
I've read reviews and your own accounts of how the Prime's various modes work as well as the owner's manual here: https://www.toyota.com/t3Portal/document/om-s/OM47A88U/pdf/OM47A88U.pdf#page=79, and none of them indicates that it has a true hold mode; Mode 4 (Hybrid battery charge mode) is the closest it comes. But feel free to enlighten me.

BTW, why the snark? I'm happy to be educated when I'm wrong on a matter of fact, so making a sarcastic remark is not only unnecessary but counter-productive.
 
What you call 'snark' is my annoyance at your hubris.
You misunderstand Prime operation, and specifically its HOLD mode. I'll leave it at that.
 
SageBrush said:
What you call 'snark' is my annoyance at your hubris.
You misunderstand Prime operation, and specifically its HOLD mode. I'll leave it at that.
And I've asked you to correct my misunderstanding, if that's in fact the case, so how does that constitute hubris? If you don't wish to do this for my benefit (as noted, the Prime wouldn't be my choice for other reasons as well), then why not do it for others? The Prime has 4 modes, and both Mode 1 (EV) and Mode 2 (EV Auto) are out as far as hold modes. Mode 3 (HV mode) comes close, but still falls short of a true hold mode. Per the manual:

Switching to HV mode when driving on a highway or
when driving uphill is recommended in order to conserve battery
power.[/b]
That sounds like a true Hold mode, but note the asterisk:

*: The EV driving range may reduce even after switching to HV mode.

The description of HV mode goes into more detail:
When in HV mode
The vehicle can be used in the same way as a standard hybrid
vehicle.

In HV mode, controls are primarily carried out as follows in accordance
with the driving conditions.

The gasoline engine stops* when the vehicle is stopped.

During start off, the electric motor (traction motor) drives the vehicle.

During normal driving, the gasoline engine and electric motor
(traction motor) are controlled effectively, and the vehicle is
driven with optimum fuel efficiency. Also, when necessary, the
electric motor (traction motor) operates as an electrical generator
to charge the hybrid battery (traction battery).

When the accelerator pedal is depressed heavily, drive force
from both the gasoline engine and the electric motor (traction
motor) is used to accelerate
.

Thus, while close it's not a true hold mode, where use of the battery is entirely under the driver's control and no matter what you do with the accelerator the battery will never be used. I want that level of control (I've also always driven manual transmission cars for similar reasons, and want gears and/or regen levels I can select rather than CVTs and being limited to just one or two levels of regen). And Mode 4, Hybrid battery (traction battery) charge mode only makes sense if you're heading into a ZEV-only zone and you don't have adequate battery charge, but the last thing I want to do is use a gas-fueled ICE to charge a battery while driving, and there are currently almost no (none?) ZEV-only zones in the U.S. to make that necessary.
 
via ABG:
2019 Subaru Crosstrek PHEV will be company's first plug-in hybrid
It uses Toyota hybrid tech
https://www.autoblog.com/2018/05/11/2019-subaru-crosstrek-phev/

. . . Subaru did reveal that the new PHEV is coming soon, with an on-sale date at the end of 2018. As such we should see photos and more details in the near future. While there aren't many plug-in hybrid compact crossovers, there are a few, and they're fairly compelling. The closest competition will be the Kia Niro PHEV, which has a claimed range of 26 miles and a solid 46 mpg when running with the gas engine. It starts at $28,840. Another potential competitor is the Mitsubishi Outlander PHEV, which provides 22 miles of electric-only range and a less impressive 25 mpg with the gas engine. The Outlander does boast more cargo space thanks to its bigger body, but also has a higher base price of $35,915.
I've altered the thread title and edited the first post accordingly. I'm kind of glad they chose the Impreza (Crosstrek) rather than the Forester or Outback. While I have a Forester, it has undergone a couple of generations of size growth since mine, and it's longer now than I would like. Even the current Crosstrek is slightly longer than my 2003 Forester, but still under the 180" max. length that I prefer.
 
As some had expressed skepticism that the Crosstrek PHEV would come close to the Prime's AER, via IEVS:
Subaru Crosstrek Hybrid PHEV Boasts Prius Prime-Like Electric Range
https://insideevs.com/2019-subaru-crosstrek-hybrid-phev-range/

. . . Details were and still are scarce on this newest plug-in. But now, thanks to a CARB certification filing, we’ve got a few new details.

It appears as though the Crosstrek Hybrid (plug-in) will get a city all-electric range (AER) rating of 25.65 miles or an equivalent all-electric range rating of 26.273 (EAER). Meanwhile, its highway figures are AER 21.9 and EAER of 27.381.

That’s certainly not Chevy Volt territory (53 miles / combined), but it will challenge the Toyota Prius Prime (of which it’s loosely based off of) at 25 electric miles combined. . . .
So, guessing 22-23 miles AER combined.
 
Via IEVS:
2019 Subaru Crosstrek Hybrid First Drive: The Overachiever
https://insideevs.com/2019-subaru-crosstrek-hybrid-first-drive/

. . . Under the Crosstrek Hybrid’s skin is an advanced powertrain with a lot to cover, even by PHEV standards. We start with a 2.0-liter Atkinson-cycle boxer engine and an electronically controlled continuously variable transmission (eCVT). Subaru tweaked those elements to work alongside two motor-generators, one positioned just behind the front axle and the other just in front of the rear axle. An 8.8-kWh lithium-ion battery pack protrudes into the Crosstrek’s cargo area and provides 17 miles of all-electric range.
If that 17 miles is accurate for the EPA, it's disappointing.

Some of the Crosstrek’s plug-in hybrid technology does come from Toyota. The Crosstrek’s battery stacks, for example, are found in the Prius Prime, and the two motor generators come from the Camry Hybrid. And although it’s similar in concept to Toyota’s transmission, Subaru did develop the eCVT in the Crosstrek Hybrid. But despite these similarities, the Subaru’s always-on all-wheel-drive system falls short of the Prius Prime’s 25 miles of all-electric range.

The Crosstrek Hybrid achieves 35 miles per gallon combined and the equivalent of 90 MPG when operating on electricity alone, which clearly bests the standard Crosstrek’s combined 25 MPG. A full charge takes five hours using a standard 120-volt outlet and two hours using a 240V plug. The 2.0-liter gas engine alone is good for 139 horsepower, though total system output is 148 horsepower, with 149 lb-ft of torque available from zero RPM, thanks to the electric motors.

The Crosstrek, like other PHEVs, offers driving modes that can save and recharge the battery packs, as well as a Normal mode. The good news is that regardless of which mode you select, the Crosstrek Hybrid retains its all-wheel-drive setup – a unique selling point among plug-in hybrids, especially affordable ones. Thanks to the gas engine’s mechanical connection to all four wheels, the Subaru’s AWD system works all the time – even when the battery is drained.

Normal mode keeps the Crosstrek eco-minded with a combination of gas and EV driving, depending on its charge level and your throttle inputs. Push the gas pedal past 50 percent and the gas unit kicks in to help out. The Save mode forces the Crosstrek to, well, save its 17 miles of electric charge for later use, like after a long highway drive when you’re about to hit city streets. And lastly, Charge mode fires up the gas engine and makes it work to refill the batteries as you continue driving.
So, sounds like they include a true 'Hold' mode, unlike the Prime. We'll have to wait until the owner's manual is available or for more testing to confirm that.

I cycled through each drive mode multiple times during my drive in and around Santa Barbara, California, noting few changes in how the car behaved switching from one mode to another. The most noticeable difference was slightly reduced acceleration in Save mode. Regardless of which drive mode you select, regenerative braking is there to help at all four corners of the car. After a brief “getting to know you” period, the regen becomes a friend, recouping energy without some of the bad manners of other regenerative brake rigs. A roughly 10-mile-long descent through the Santa Barbara mountains allowed us to regain nearly half of the electric range by the time the car returned to sea level. That’s an extreme case, but regen braking really does work to extend your EV driving range.

The Crosstrek Hybrid was less happy climbing hills, where the CVT kept the RPMs high enough that the powertrain felt stressed by its task. Aside from that concession, the Crosstrek Hybrid is a fine road trip vehicle, though it’d be smart to build up some momentum before overtaking other drivers or prior to climbing mountains. . . .

Cargo space is down a full 24 percent compared to the non-hybrid: 20.8 cubic feet for the standard Crosstrek versus 15.9 cubic feet in the hybrid model. Blame that big battery pack. For a customer base that loves loading up their pets on the weekends, it’s worth mentioning that your golden retriever may resent you for choosing the PHEV, as it has less wiggle room due to the raised floor. . . .

Otherwise, the Hybrid gets the same equipment found in the Crosstrek Limited. This includes the eight-inch Starlink infotainment system (complete with Apple CarPlay and Android Auto), automatic climate control, and keyless entry as standard. Sought-after safety features such as blind-spot monitoring, adaptive cruise control, and rear cross traffic alert also come standard as part of Subaru’s well-regarded EyeSight system. The only available option package – priced at $2,500 – adds a moonroof, heated steering wheel, voice-activated navigation, and Harmon Kardon sound system. . . .

Once you press the X-Mode button to engage the vehicle’s off-road setting, the car attacks the dirt with little hesitation. X-Mode also fires up Hill Descent Control, which uses the car’s brake regeneration system to keep things in check moving downhill, while also adding some extra juice back into the battery (brief applause for innovation). And remember, the all-wheel-drive system is working all the time, even when using purely electric power. So, when the going gets a little hairy, the Crosstrek is always ready for the challenge. . . .

Prices start at $34,995, or $7,800 less [Sic. More] than the $27,195 gas-only Limited, though the Crosstrek Hybrid qualifies for a $4,500 federal income-tax credit, as well as state credits, depending on location. Unfortunately, Subaru only plans to stock the car at dealers in 10 California Air Resource Board (CARB)-compliant states, though customers may order the Crosstrek Hybrid and have it delivered anywhere in the remaining 40. . . .

The second-generation Crosstrek Hybrid has its issues – tight cargo space, limited power, and a hefty starting price, so don’t expect it to become the brand’s top seller or supplant its cheaper, non-hybrid sibling. However, it stands out as an over-achiever, finding the balance between electric efficiency and off-road capability. Flaws aside, it’s the most interesting car in the Subaru family right now.
I'll look at it but I'm underwhelmed (as I've always been by the Crosstrek, preferring the regular Impreza hatch, or my Forester). Still, between this and the Outlander PHEV, the Crosstrek XV (Plug-in) Hybrid fits my needs better, and as Subaru's first PHEV attempt using a conversion it's still better all-around than say the Ford Energis.
 
I forgot this vehicle even existed until I saw it at the Silicon Valley Auto Show. They seem to market it as a Crosstrek Hybrid even though it's a PHEV. They touted the red HOV stickers (now purple) and $4500 Federal tax credit (actually $4502) besides other state/local incentives.

I recall having very little cargo room, probably due to the battery.

Saw the 17 mile AER on the Monroney sticker.
 
Yes other than being 4 wheel drive(or AWD or whatever they call it nowadays!) it doesn't really seem to have much going for it. It's got the same 8.8 kWh battery as the Prius Prime but being boxier, AWD and other things, unlike the Prime that gets 27 miles the Crosstrek only gets 17 miles EV :(
Also not sure about the PHEV but I knew someone who bought a regular Crosstrek and was not happy about how it handled in the snow. They said the rear end had the tendency to fishtail and they were very scared driving in the snow. They even purchased expensive snow tires which helped but not to their liking. They had the vehicle into the dealer several times but they could find no problem. Apparently?? they searched the internet and found people reporting a similar problem but no one had a solution. As they specifically purchased a Subaru for it's ability to handle snow, they were very unhappy. In the end, they ended up trading it in on another Subaru(Outback I believe??) and that handled very well, no fishtailing, even with the OEM tires. This transpired a couple of winters ago and I believe he said since then he's read about a bulletin to possibly address this, but if looking at a Crosstrek, especially a used one, I'd do lots of research, specifically in how it handles in the snow.
Personally I think the Crosstrek is a nice looking vehicle but it would need to have a much larger battery(more EV range) and I'd had to be confident they fixed the fishtailing tendencies before getting serious about purchasing it.
 
I'm looking to buy a new car now that my 2011 Leaf is suffering a bit, especially in range. I looked at 10 different models over the weekend, including BEVs (Tesla Model 3, Chevy Bolt) and several PHEVs. In terms of size, form factor and fit and finish, the Crosstrek was in the sweet spot for me. I thought the seats and dashboard layout were excellent based on sitting in it. However, the big drawback right now is that the dealer doesn't have any PHEVs and doesn't know when he's going to get any. He's hoping for July. I didn't test drive the ICE model, but I test drove three other cars: Bolt, Volvo XC60, and Outlander PHEV. I didn't like the Bolt much, mainly because of its small size and mediocre fit and finish. I liked both the Volvo and Outlander, but both are verging on too large. I liked the Outlander better just in driving feel, but the Volvo had more bells and whistles. At this point I'm not ready to pick a winner. I'd like to test drive the Crosstrek but will have to wait until the dealers have them. The limited EV range is disappointing, but since I'm retired and don't have a commute, 90% of my trips are under 15 miles, so that's not a big problem. I don't go to the snow, but I do go into the local hills for geocaching, so I drive on dirt roads, unpaved parking areas, rough rutty shoulders, etc. and the AWD and higher ground clearance of the SUVs are pluses for me. There's a Volvo XC40 supposedly on the way, too, so I'm inclined to wait at least a bit for news on that and the Crosstrek.
 
Rat said:
Crosstrek was in the sweet spot for me. I thought the seats and dashboard layout were excellent based on sitting in it. However, the big drawback right now is that the dealer doesn't have any PHEVs and doesn't know when he's going to get any. He's hoping for July
...
I didn't like the Bolt much, mainly because of its small size and mediocre fit and finish.
...
The limited EV range is disappointing, but since I'm retired and don't have a commute, 90% of my trips are under 15 miles, so that's not a big problem. I don't go to the snow, but I do go into the local hills for geocaching, so I drive on dirt roads, unpaved parking areas, rough rutty shoulders, etc. and the AWD and higher ground clearance of the SUVs are pluses for me. There's a Volvo XC40 supposedly on the way, too, so I'm inclined to wait at least a bit for news on that and the Crosstrek.
Wow. Crazy. I wonder if Subaru's actually interested in selling any. It doesn't even show up at https://insideevs.com/monthly-plug-in-sales-scorecard/.

I didn't bother checking for inventory via https://www.subaru.com/vehicles/crosstrek/hybrid.html as I don't care.

As for Bolt's fit and finish, they seem built fine inside and out so you're probably talking about the cheap interior, which I have to agree with. It's hard plastics all around and to me, even the Cruze and Volt have better interiors.

Since you mention Bolt's small size (yes, it's 11 inches shorter than gen 1 Leaf), Crosstrek PHEV has little cargo room. Skip to ~1:37 of https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mh8zOYKnkX0 to get an idea. I didn't watch the rest of the video.

https://www.caranddriver.com/reviews/a25223865/2019-subaru-crosstrek-hybrid-drive/ has a pic and https://www.caranddriver.com/photos/g25223875/2019-subaru-crosstrek-hybrid-drive-gallery/ reminded me about the lousy charging inlet placement. (I already dislike the front driver's side fender inlet placement of the Bolt vs. the nose of the Leaf. I gave examples why as to why at http://www.mynissanleaf.com/viewtopic.php?p=548912#p548912.)
 
That's a good video review. Thanks for posting it. Your point about the port placement is also well-taken. That could be a problem for several/most of the cars I tried. I have an EVSE mounted in my garage halfway from front to back. When my Leaf is pulled in all the way, the cord reaches the port fine, but without a great deal of length to spare. I can also park in my driveway on one side and the cord reaches there, too, but then the Leaf port is in the nose. That was the reason for the placement of the EVSE. For all these other cars, the port is usually just behind and above the front wheel, which means I'd have to pull the car to within a foot or two of the garage so the cord will reach, which means blocking the path to the side of the house where our trash toters are, etc. My wife likes (and deserves) equal time in the garage with her car, so we switch off. The garage is only big enough for one car.
 
After talking to some other dealers, I've been told that Subaru is making only 300 a month and that includes for dealers in Australia, UK, etc., not just the U.S. Each dealer here gets one car every few months and so far anyway, they all have been pre-ordered, at least at the local dealers. So there will never be a chance to test drive the car at a dealer unless things change. The local salesman told me that someone might "back out" and maybe I could buy one of those. I'd like to know how that works. If it's possible to pre-order and then back out if I change my mind, I could do that, although I might have to wait months before I got the car and there's the question of deposits and penalties. Still, I pre-ordered with my 2011 Leaf so I guess I've adapted to the strange new world of ordering cars unseen and undriven. I'm hoping to find someone local with one that I can test drive or at least ride along in before committing to anything. The local salesman didn't seem to know how to preorder, and what the terms are, but said he would look into that for me.

I filled in a web form at the Subaru website to build my own and request a quote. It gave me a price (MSRP), then a woman from a call center called me. She was obviously not knowledgeable about the hybrid. I had to explain to her what the dealers were telling me. She ended up saying the best thing for me was to stay in touch with my local dealer. The other cars I'm still interested in are the Volvo XC60 and Mitsubishi Outlander PHEVs, but both are larger and more expensive than I want. The Volvo dealer has no info on the XC40 PHEV either, which is in the running. I thought the Ioniq was better than most of the other sedans/hatchbacks I saw in look and feel, but the trunk is miniscule and I'd prefer a small SUV.

If anyone local (SF Bay Area) on this forum has a Crosstrek PHEV and is willing to let me drive or ride along, please message me.
 
FWIW, Volvo seems to be using almost all Chinese engines now, and turbo fours at that. I wouldn't ever buy a car with a Chinese engine AND a turbocharger. They will probably start failing well before 100k miles.
 
Sad, as Volvo used to have about as reliable of an engine as possible, I'm thinking about the B18 4 cylinder. Of course it's possible the car and engine are made to Volvo's specs and if Volvo keeps a close eye on production if might be decent.....
Too bad this Crosstrek seems to be basically a compliance car :x
Of course coming from Subaru(who hasn't exactly been known as a leader in fuel economy) and the company who loves to slap PHEV decals all over their cars, even though the only thing "partial" about a Subaru is the engine shuts off when at a stop sign(as do MANY current cars, even ones who don't slather PHEV decals all over their cars)!
Boo to Subaru :roll:
 
That's "PZEV" for "Partial Zero Emission Vehicle." Indeed. What's next, labeling all ICEs with that, because they only produce emissions while in use?

I grew up with Volvos and B-18 engines. My father drag raced two of them, the second a PV544 with a 200HP normally aspirated B-18 (bored to 2 liters). The later B-230F and the related turbocharged version were also good engines. But then there was the B-30 (IIRC): a straight six based on the B-20 (last version of the B-18) but with no additional camshaft bearings. They all rattled like diesels before 60k miles...
 
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