cwerdna
Posts: 9811
Joined: Fri Jun 03, 2011 4:31 pm
Delivery Date: 28 Jul 2013
Location: SF Bay Area, CA

Re: Chevrolet Bolt - 60 kWh, 238 mi, < 7s 0-60

Mon Mar 11, 2019 11:23 pm

OrientExpress wrote:When the Bolt was introduced in 2017, it was absolutely the darling of the BEV scene because it set a new standard in range for an under $40K vehicle. That shine wore off as soon as everyone grew tired of its dreadful ergonomics and everything else with the car. Good difference with the LEAF, who has excellent reliability and, does everything very well, but nothing really outstanding. The Bolt does range very well, but everything else is just mediocre.
1st Bolt delivery was in Dec 2016, but yes, in the US, until mid Feb 2019, it was the only game in town for 200+ mile EPA range rating BEV for under $40K actually available to buy or lease.

I wouldn't say the ergonomics of the Bolt are dreadful. They're fine to me but the '17 Bolt seats do suck and even the '19's seats are not great. And, the interior's cheap. I was at a local auto show on Friday and to me, even the current Volt and Chevy Cruze have better quality interiors.

About the only two other ergonomic gripes I have are the sun visors aren't tall enough. Also, on the '17 Bolt, the visor wasn't long enough nor was there an extender nor was it a slide-on-rod visor (like what you find on '18 Leaf). I don't know when they fixed the latter part but my '19 has on slide-on-rod visors. I know the '17 Bolt I rented definitely didn't.

I'm not sure if I can count the inlet placement on the left fender as an "ergonomic" issue but I can say it's definitely inferior to the nose for reasons I mentioned already.

In 2017, reliability ratings on the 1st model year ('17) bolt were very good (esp for GM) being above average and being Chevy's most reliable vehicle (https://electrek.co/2017/10/20/bolt-reliable-chevy/ and https://web.archive.org/web/20171101200 ... -stack-up/) .

One will need a CR online subscription (I have one) to see these but Leaf CR reliability ratings have been a bit of a mixed bag:
https://www.consumerreports.org/cars/ni ... y?pagestop
https://www.consumerreports.org/cars/ch ... y?pagestop

Their marks have different 5 icons representing worst to best. Let's call the worst a 1 and best 5. Right now, '11, '13, and '17 Leaf receive a 5 for overall reliability verdict. '12 and '18 get a 3. '14 and '15 get 4. '16 for some reason gets a 1. Trouble spots on '16 are drive system (worst mark), climate system and brakes.

For Bolt, they only have ratings for '17 and '18. '17 gets 3 (was better in Oct 2017 and I'm pretty sure the same rating was published in the April 2018 auto issue) and '18 gets a 5.

These will change in about 6 months to a year from now, I think closer to the latter.

'19 Bolt Premier
'13 Leaf SV w/premium package (owned)
'13 Leaf SV w/QC + LED & premium packages (lease over, car returned)

Please don't PM me with Leaf questions. Just post in the topic that seems most appropriate.

cwerdna
Posts: 9811
Joined: Fri Jun 03, 2011 4:31 pm
Delivery Date: 28 Jul 2013
Location: SF Bay Area, CA

Re: Chevrolet Bolt - 60 kWh, 238 mi, < 7s 0-60

Thu Mar 28, 2019 11:11 am

Some good deals came up on a Bolt forum again last night (https://www.chevybolt.org/forum/55-2017 ... post491343) and it seems like it's the same dealer/dealer family in Maryland as on March 10th.

Prices at https://www.criswellchevrolet.com/Vehic ... rice%7Casc. Last night, I totally forgot about that Maryland credit so I'm not clear if the prices the folks at the forum are claiming include deducting for that. If it is before that $3K from MD (and doesn't include playing games like including the $7500 Federal tax credit), wow...

'19 Bolt Premier
'13 Leaf SV w/premium package (owned)
'13 Leaf SV w/QC + LED & premium packages (lease over, car returned)

Please don't PM me with Leaf questions. Just post in the topic that seems most appropriate.

LeftieBiker
Moderator
Posts: 13442
Joined: Wed May 22, 2013 3:17 am
Delivery Date: 30 Apr 2018
Location: Upstate New York, US

Re: Chevrolet Bolt - 60 kWh, 238 mi, < 7s 0-60

Thu Mar 28, 2019 11:38 am

I try not to dwell on the deals on the '18 Leaf...
Scarlet Ember 2018 Leaf SL W/ Pro Pilot
2009 Vectrix VX-1 W/18 Leaf modules, & 3 EZIP E-bicycles.
BAFX OBDII Dongle
PLEASE don't PM me with Leaf questions. Just post in the topic that seems most appropriate.

goldbrick
Posts: 635
Joined: Tue Aug 01, 2017 3:33 pm
Delivery Date: 01 Aug 2017
Leaf Number: 311806
Location: Boulder, CO

Re: Chevrolet Bolt - 60 kWh, 238 mi, < 7s 0-60

Thu Mar 28, 2019 12:58 pm

Boulder Nissan has an ad for a new 2019 Leaf S with charge package for $14k net before taxes, fees, etc. Local Craigslist shows folks trying to get $20k+ for about the same car - but USED :roll:

cwerdna
Posts: 9811
Joined: Fri Jun 03, 2011 4:31 pm
Delivery Date: 28 Jul 2013
Location: SF Bay Area, CA

Re: Chevrolet Bolt - 60 kWh, 238 mi, < 7s 0-60

Thu Mar 28, 2019 1:38 pm

LeftieBiker wrote:I try not to dwell on the deals on the '18 Leaf...
Not so much trying to dwell but more to make people aware who, esp. given the Federal tax credit on GM EVs/PHEVs falls to $3750 on April 1, 2019.

I wasn't really looking much into the Bolt until somebody else (IIRC, on a Leaf FB group) made me aware of the heavy discounting going on. I ended up buying.

At MSRP, Bolt prices are absurd vs. current competitors. If that MD dealer Bolt deal is legit, it makes Leaf Plus and Kona Electric pricing (esp. w/the markups we're hearing about) absurd.

'19 Bolt Premier
'13 Leaf SV w/premium package (owned)
'13 Leaf SV w/QC + LED & premium packages (lease over, car returned)

Please don't PM me with Leaf questions. Just post in the topic that seems most appropriate.

LeftieBiker
Moderator
Posts: 13442
Joined: Wed May 22, 2013 3:17 am
Delivery Date: 30 Apr 2018
Location: Upstate New York, US

Re: Chevrolet Bolt - 60 kWh, 238 mi, < 7s 0-60

Thu Mar 28, 2019 3:00 pm

Understood.
Scarlet Ember 2018 Leaf SL W/ Pro Pilot
2009 Vectrix VX-1 W/18 Leaf modules, & 3 EZIP E-bicycles.
BAFX OBDII Dongle
PLEASE don't PM me with Leaf questions. Just post in the topic that seems most appropriate.

cwerdna
Posts: 9811
Joined: Fri Jun 03, 2011 4:31 pm
Delivery Date: 28 Jul 2013
Location: SF Bay Area, CA

Re: Chevrolet Bolt - 60 kWh, 238 mi, < 7s 0-60

Sat Mar 30, 2019 1:47 am

Sigh... on one of the Bolt FB groups, there's a guy asking about "a used 2017 bolt premium on a local lot with 60k miles on it, for 24k". That's a lousy price considering how heavily discounted new ones are combined with the $7500 Federal tax credit (thru 3/31/19 on GM EVs/PHEVs).

Anyway, there's more discussion and this guy has a complete misunderstanding of how the tax credit works. When the tax credit is mentioned, he incorrectly says "I always get a refund so the tax thing doesn’t affect me regardless". That has NOTHING to do with it. You need to have sufficient tax liability. It has nothing to do w/whether or not you get a refund. If you have Federal tax liability of $20,000 and via withholdings, estimated tax payments, etc. resulting in overpayment of $5K and resulting in a refund of $5K, you're still eligible given that your tax liability is over $7500.

Hopefully we got through to him.

If one's tax liability is less than the $7500, then the max credit you can qualify for is your tax liability. (E.g. If your tax liability is only $5K, you can only benefit from $5K of the credit.)

And, another ignorant guy comes along spreading bad info saying "credit is GONE so used car prices are now comparatively better". Nope!

Sigh.... this might be another contributing factor to lackluster EV/PHEV sales: folks see the sticker prices are too high and are misinformed about how the Federal tax credit works, thinking they can't receive it. Perhaps the target audience of Teslas are more likely to understand and thus jumped on them while tax credits on Teslas was still $7500?

'19 Bolt Premier
'13 Leaf SV w/premium package (owned)
'13 Leaf SV w/QC + LED & premium packages (lease over, car returned)

Please don't PM me with Leaf questions. Just post in the topic that seems most appropriate.

lorenfb
Posts: 2278
Joined: Tue Dec 17, 2013 10:53 pm
Delivery Date: 22 Nov 2013
Leaf Number: 416635
Location: SoCal

Re: Chevrolet Bolt - 60 kWh, 238 mi, < 7s 0-60

Sat Mar 30, 2019 7:06 am

cwerdna wrote: Sigh.... this might be another contributing factor to lackluster EV/PHEV sales: folks see the sticker prices are too high and are misinformed about how the Federal tax credit works, thinking they can't receive it. Perhaps the target audience of Teslas are more likely to understand and thus jumped on them while tax credits on Teslas was still $7500?
Good point.
#1 Leaf SL MY 9/13: 74K miles, 48 Ahrs, 5.2 miles/kWh (average), Hx=70, SOH=78, L2 - 100% > 1000, temp < 95F, (DOD) > 20 Ahrs
#2 Leaf SL MY 12/18: 4.5K miles, 115 Ahrs, 5.5 miles/kWh (average), Hx=98, SOH=99, DOD > 20%, temp < 105F

DaveinOlyWA
Posts: 14221
Joined: Sat Apr 24, 2010 7:43 pm
Delivery Date: 16 Nov 2019
Leaf Number: 319862
Location: Olympia, WA
Contact: Website

Re: Chevrolet Bolt - 60 kWh, 238 mi, < 7s 0-60

Sat Mar 30, 2019 7:52 am

cwerdna wrote:Sigh... on one of the Bolt FB groups, there's a guy asking about "a used 2017 bolt premium on a local lot with 60k miles on it, for 24k". That's a lousy price considering how heavily discounted new ones are combined with the $7500 Federal tax credit (thru 3/31/19 on GM EVs/PHEVs).

Anyway, there's more discussion and this guy has a complete misunderstanding of how the tax credit works. When the tax credit is mentioned, he incorrectly says "I always get a refund so the tax thing doesn’t affect me regardless". That has NOTHING to do with it. You need to have sufficient tax liability. It has nothing to do w/whether or not you get a refund. If you have Federal tax liability of $20,000 and via withholdings, estimated tax payments, etc. resulting in overpayment of $5K and resulting in a refund of $5K, you're still eligible given that your tax liability is over $7500.

Hopefully we got through to him.

If one's tax liability is less than the $7500, then the max credit you can qualify for is your tax liability. (E.g. If your tax liability is only $5K, you can only benefit from $5K of the credit.)

And, another ignorant guy comes along spreading bad info saying "credit is GONE so used car prices are now comparatively better". Nope!

Sigh.... this might be another contributing factor to lackluster EV/PHEV sales: folks see the sticker prices are too high and are misinformed about how the Federal tax credit works, thinking they can't receive it. Perhaps the target audience of Teslas are more likely to understand and thus jumped on them while tax credits on Teslas was still $7500?

Misinformation on Facebook is rampant and imm does lead to reduced sales, unnecessary degradation and confusion. People here "Just plug it in" from Tesla (which has TMS, custom charge levels and EXTENSIVE warnings to not charge to 100% needlessly) and think that applies to the LEAF as well. Trying to explain the difference to them is like talking to...nothing.
2011 SL; 44,598 mi, 87% SOH. 2013 S; 44,840 mi, 91% SOH. 2016 S30; 29,413 mi, 99% SOH. 2018 S; 25,185 mi, SOH 92.23%. 2019 S Plus; 412 mi, 99.72% SOH
My Blog; http://daveinolywa.blogspot.com" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

lorenfb
Posts: 2278
Joined: Tue Dec 17, 2013 10:53 pm
Delivery Date: 22 Nov 2013
Leaf Number: 416635
Location: SoCal

Re: Chevrolet Bolt - 60 kWh, 238 mi, < 7s 0-60

Sat Mar 30, 2019 10:00 am

DaveinOlyWA wrote: People here "Just plug it in" from Tesla (which has TMS, custom charge levels and EXTENSIVE warnings to not charge to 100% )needlessly and think that applies to the LEAF as well. Trying to explain the difference to them is like talking to...nothing.
Let's not overemphasize the importance of not charging to 100% relative to the other key factors affecting degradation; battery temp,
number of cycles, minimum discharge point, age, chemistry, & peak charging current.

Image

The difference in capacity loss after ten years charging every day (1 full charge/day) is less than 10% (~7%) based on charging
to 100% versus 85%.
#1 Leaf SL MY 9/13: 74K miles, 48 Ahrs, 5.2 miles/kWh (average), Hx=70, SOH=78, L2 - 100% > 1000, temp < 95F, (DOD) > 20 Ahrs
#2 Leaf SL MY 12/18: 4.5K miles, 115 Ahrs, 5.5 miles/kWh (average), Hx=98, SOH=99, DOD > 20%, temp < 105F

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