LeftieBiker
Moderator
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Joined: Wed May 22, 2013 3:17 am
Delivery Date: 30 Apr 2018
Location: Upstate New York, US

Re: Niro vs. Kona vs. Leaf Plus SV

Thu Apr 04, 2019 10:09 pm

Yes, it was clear that I was guessing about possible efficiency loss - just as you are just guessing about Nissan designing the EM57 motor for possible future output of well over 200HP. Because Nissan is well known for future-proofing the Leaf. ;)
Scarlet Ember 2018 Leaf SL W/ Pro Pilot
2009 Vectrix VX-1 W/18 Leaf modules, & 3 EZIP E-bicycles.
BAFX OBDII Dongle
PLEASE don't PM me with Leaf questions. Just post in the topic that seems most appropriate.

lorenfb
Posts: 2259
Joined: Tue Dec 17, 2013 10:53 pm
Delivery Date: 22 Nov 2013
Leaf Number: 416635
Location: SoCal

Re: Niro vs. Kona vs. Leaf Plus SV

Fri Apr 05, 2019 5:51 am

LeftieBiker wrote:Yes, it was clear that I was guessing about possible efficiency loss - just as you are just guessing about Nissan designing the EM57 motor for possible future output of well over 200HP. Because Nissan is well known for future-proofing the Leaf. ;)
What is more likely, that Nissan has used a poorly designed motor that results in less efficiency at significantly higher outputs
or that the efficiency difference between the various Leaf models is attributable to other factors? That's the guessing issue.

The key point being overlooked here is that Nissan knows well in advance what the EPA number will be before the EPA
actually tests its vehicles. Surely you don't think that Nissan or any automotive company naively provides a vehicle to
the EPA without extensive preparation and testing?
#1 Leaf SL MY 9/13: 74K miles, 48 Ahrs, 5.2 miles/kWh (average), Hx=70, SOH=78, L2 - 100% > 1000, temp < 95F, (DOD) > 20 Ahrs
#2 Leaf SL MY 12/18: 4.5K miles, 115 Ahrs, 5.5 miles/kWh (average), Hx=98, SOH=99, DOD > 20%, temp < 105F

User avatar
OrientExpress
Posts: 1493
Joined: Sun Aug 08, 2010 12:22 pm
Delivery Date: 10 May 2011
Leaf Number: 2331
Location: San Jose, Ca

Re: Niro vs. Kona vs. Leaf Plus SV

Fri Apr 05, 2019 8:15 am

I currently have a Hyundai Kona that I am evaluating. I also have a 2018 LEAF Plus coming next Friday, followed by a Kia Niro. I'm behind on publishing by road tests, but will have all three up by the end of the month. Here is a photo of the Kona Ultimate EV along with a Nexo fuel cell that I had the week before.

Image

The short summary is: The Kona returned a full charge mileage of 257 miles during a 70-75 mph trip and is returning 4-4.3 Miles/kWh. Overall the biggest issue that I have encountered with the Kona is the extremely loud road noise from the tires. The Korean Nexen LRR tires had been inflated to 44 psi, but even when I lowered them to 36, they were still much louder than Michelin or Bridgestone LLR tires especially in the rear. Part of the issue is that the rear wheel liners are hard plastic instead of the fiber liners like on the LEAF.

The version that I have is the Ultimate, and it has an MSRP of $45,830, which places it in the same price range as other luxury CUVs like the Lexus UX.

Otherwise, performance is awesome, and the little HUD screen (like on Mazdas) is a great feature. Of course the Kona is a CUV about the size inside of a eGolf, or Lexus UX, much smaller than the interior of the LEAF.
2018 LEAF SL
Gun Metalic
Delivery April 10 2018

Prior LEAF:
2014 LEAF SV
Ocean Blue
Delivery May 23 2014
50,000+ miles - all 12 bars - Same range as new - No warranty issues ever!

DougWantsALeaf
Posts: 1004
Joined: Fri May 10, 2013 8:21 pm
Delivery Date: 18 May 2013
Leaf Number: 407811
Location: Chicago North Side

Re: Niro vs. Kona vs. Leaf Plus SV

Fri Apr 05, 2019 8:33 am

Orient Express, what was your range experience with the 2018 Leaf in terms of range? At freeway speeds (65 Mph), were you still able to get above 4 miles/kWh?
2019 SV Plus Silver
2013 Leaf SV
100 Mile Club Member (Number 87)
Max distance on 13 Leaf: 120 miles
Max distance on 19 Leaf: 242 Highway 4.5 miles/kWh (4.9 KWh remaining)

User avatar
OrientExpress
Posts: 1493
Joined: Sun Aug 08, 2010 12:22 pm
Delivery Date: 10 May 2011
Leaf Number: 2331
Location: San Jose, Ca

Re: Niro vs. Kona vs. Leaf Plus SV

Fri Apr 05, 2019 8:49 am

DougWantsALeaf wrote:Orient Express, what was your range experience with the 2018 Leaf in terms of range? At freeway speeds (65 Mph), were you still able to get above 4 miles/kWh?
Yeah, on a full charge freeway driving I can usually get 165/175 miles or 4.2 m/kWh or so. Over the lifetime of the car it has an average of 3.9 m/kWh.

I'll be interested to see what the Plus range really is. I suspect that it will be significantly higher than the EPA range.
2018 LEAF SL
Gun Metalic
Delivery April 10 2018

Prior LEAF:
2014 LEAF SV
Ocean Blue
Delivery May 23 2014
50,000+ miles - all 12 bars - Same range as new - No warranty issues ever!

lorenfb
Posts: 2259
Joined: Tue Dec 17, 2013 10:53 pm
Delivery Date: 22 Nov 2013
Leaf Number: 416635
Location: SoCal

Re: Niro vs. Kona vs. Leaf Plus SV

Fri Apr 05, 2019 9:33 am

DougWantsALeaf wrote: At freeway speeds (65 Mph), were you still able to get above 4 miles/kWh?
As always, it all JUST depends on:

1. the driver
2. the grade of the road
3. the tire pressures
4. the ambient temp
5. the wind conditions
6. the traffic conditions
7. the number of people in the vehicle
8. the settings on the climate control system
9. the ECO and/or e-pedal settings

It's so simple to do a comparative range analysis on BEV, right?
#1 Leaf SL MY 9/13: 74K miles, 48 Ahrs, 5.2 miles/kWh (average), Hx=70, SOH=78, L2 - 100% > 1000, temp < 95F, (DOD) > 20 Ahrs
#2 Leaf SL MY 12/18: 4.5K miles, 115 Ahrs, 5.5 miles/kWh (average), Hx=98, SOH=99, DOD > 20%, temp < 105F

User avatar
OrientExpress
Posts: 1493
Joined: Sun Aug 08, 2010 12:22 pm
Delivery Date: 10 May 2011
Leaf Number: 2331
Location: San Jose, Ca

Re: Niro vs. Kona vs. Leaf Plus SV

Fri Apr 05, 2019 12:50 pm

lorenfb wrote:It's so simple to do a comparative range analysis on BEV, right?
Absolutely. All that is required is a known stretch of road, and a baseline from a known BEV.
2018 LEAF SL
Gun Metalic
Delivery April 10 2018

Prior LEAF:
2014 LEAF SV
Ocean Blue
Delivery May 23 2014
50,000+ miles - all 12 bars - Same range as new - No warranty issues ever!

lorenfb
Posts: 2259
Joined: Tue Dec 17, 2013 10:53 pm
Delivery Date: 22 Nov 2013
Leaf Number: 416635
Location: SoCal

Re: Niro vs. Kona vs. Leaf Plus SV

Fri Apr 05, 2019 2:36 pm

lorenfb wrote:
DougWantsALeaf wrote: At freeway speeds (65 Mph), were you still able to get above 4 miles/kWh?
As always, it all JUST depends on:

1. the driver
2. the grade of the road
3. the tire pressures
4. the ambient temp
5. the wind conditions
6. the traffic conditions
7. the number of people in the vehicle
8. the settings on the climate control system
9. the ECO and/or e-pedal settings

It's so simple to do a comparative range analysis on BEV, right?
And then there's the actual measurement error and correlation error (between vehicles) each assume about +/- 2.5%.
So for two vehicles with a nominal range each about 200 miles, the combined error is about 5%. Then the
overall accuracy is about +/-5%, or a range error about +/- 10 miles between the two. So then which had the greater
range for comparison?

Actually, it's naive to attempt to differentiate vehicles with very close ranges!
#1 Leaf SL MY 9/13: 74K miles, 48 Ahrs, 5.2 miles/kWh (average), Hx=70, SOH=78, L2 - 100% > 1000, temp < 95F, (DOD) > 20 Ahrs
#2 Leaf SL MY 12/18: 4.5K miles, 115 Ahrs, 5.5 miles/kWh (average), Hx=98, SOH=99, DOD > 20%, temp < 105F

User avatar
OrientExpress
Posts: 1493
Joined: Sun Aug 08, 2010 12:22 pm
Delivery Date: 10 May 2011
Leaf Number: 2331
Location: San Jose, Ca

Re: Niro vs. Kona vs. Leaf Plus SV

Fri Apr 05, 2019 3:00 pm

lorenfb wrote:Actually, it's naive to attempt to differentiate vehicles with very close ranges!
You nailed it.
2018 LEAF SL
Gun Metalic
Delivery April 10 2018

Prior LEAF:
2014 LEAF SV
Ocean Blue
Delivery May 23 2014
50,000+ miles - all 12 bars - Same range as new - No warranty issues ever!

DougWantsALeaf
Posts: 1004
Joined: Fri May 10, 2013 8:21 pm
Delivery Date: 18 May 2013
Leaf Number: 407811
Location: Chicago North Side

Re: Niro vs. Kona vs. Leaf Plus SV

Fri Apr 05, 2019 3:52 pm

Is the cruise any more efficient in the newer leaf? In my 2013 I always found I did better with it off and carefully managing the throttle, especially on inclines allowing a bit of speed drift on the ups, and more coast on the downs.


I always wanted a constant power cruise (Ex: 10 kW per hour) rather then a speed.
2019 SV Plus Silver
2013 Leaf SV
100 Mile Club Member (Number 87)
Max distance on 13 Leaf: 120 miles
Max distance on 19 Leaf: 242 Highway 4.5 miles/kWh (4.9 KWh remaining)

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