Dumbest excuses people have given for NOT installing PV

Inverter costs will run between 13 and 17 cents per watt.
If I get a used 3,800 inverter, stick 3,300 watts worth of panels on it that will come to 15 cents a watt.
So 26 cents a watt for panels, 15 for inverters, 41 cents a watt.
Sure I could perfect match everything together for 3 or 4 times the cost, mmmm I'll pass.
I expect a 3,300w array to make at least 16kwh per day or $1.12 worth of power per day. IF electricity stays at 7 cents a kwh, but our idiot governor signed a renewable power mandate that will likey cause electricity prices to sky rocket.
For the first 3,300w set pay back will take 3 years and about 2 months for the panels and inverter only.
By the time I add additional hard ware, unistrut or superstrut, other racking hardware, should be less than 5 years for sure.
Maybe find some suckers to resell panels to, maybe a little less than 5 years.

I pitty the fools who think a 10 to 20 year pay back is acceptable. Ain't nobody got time for that.

I have a 2500 inverter matched to 3kW of solar panels. Virtually never maxes out the inverter.
Payback was 5 years and that was 2 years ago.

We live near the ocean and the salt air quickly corrodes anything made of metal. If you get half the normal life out of an AC condenser you're doing well.

Besides FPL is installing lots of solar generation. In an era where we rely on streaming services for movies and music why would I want to sign up to maintain my own power generation infrastructure? That's like buying a cow because you want a glass of milk, better to outsource it.

If you want solar, don't wait for the government and/or utility to do it for you.

My problem is I have 7 cent a kwh power, no real incentives and 0 other people's money.

Oilpan4 said:

If you want solar, don't wait for the government and/or utility to do it for you.

My problem is I have 7 cent a kwh power, no real incentives and 0 other people's money.

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Exactly. If I was paying 39 cents/kwh I'd be all over it. At 11 cents the payback just isn't there, even with a subsidy what's a system going to set me back $10-20k? Just the opportunity cost on that capital likely exceeds my power bill even if it took it to zero.

As for the utility, they don't have to do it for me, they can do it for themselves. You know they're getting those panels wholesale by the shipping container; I can't get that economy of scale. Plus they can back them up with gas turbines instead of costly batteries. People love to hate the power company but at 11 cents I think they're providing a fantastic value.

I rent

Oilpan4 said:

I expect a 3,300w array to make at least 16kwh per day or $1.12 worth of power per day. IF electricity stays at 7 cents a kwh

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Show a bill.
I'm *very* skeptical that you pay 7 cents a kWh now.

Oh I was wrong it's not 7 cents. It's 6.825 cents a kwh. Surcharge is $25.
I rounded up on the base rate. My bad.

http://www.rcec.coop/content/consumer-rates-0
Down load the PDF titled "general services".
Read.

Last month total bill was 9.9 cents over all after adding the surcharge, tax, another fee and a conservation fun.

New mexico has the lowest power bills in the nation for 2018.

https://www.electricitylocal.com/states/new-mexico/

"The average monthly residential electricity bill in New Mexico is $75, which ranks 51st in the nation"

LTLFTcomposite said:

Oilpan4 said:

If you want solar, don't wait for the government and/or utility to do it for you.

My problem is I have 7 cent a kwh power, no real incentives and 0 other people's money.

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Exactly. If I was paying 39 cents/kwh I'd be all over it. At 11 cents the payback just isn't there, even with a subsidy what's a system going to set me back $10-20k? Just the opportunity cost on that capital likely exceeds my power bill even if it took it to zero.

As for the utility, they don't have to do it for me, they can do it for themselves. You know they're getting those panels wholesale by the shipping container; I can't get that economy of scale. Plus they can back them up with gas turbines instead of costly batteries. People love to hate the power company but at 11 cents I think they're providing a fantastic value.

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At the last home and garden show both local solar companies were there. They were offering a 6kw system for $17,000 after other people's money was applied.

I want to pay more like $3,000 to $4,000 for 6kw.

Oilpan4 said:

Last month total bill was 9.9 cents over all after adding the surcharge, tax, another fee and a conservation fun[d].

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Now you have it right.

New mexico has the lowest power bills in the nation for 2018.

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Don't be so sure. It is hard to compare due to fees and fixed charges.
Your service is a good example, since it hides behind a large fixed fee. PNM charges 11 cents a kWh all inclusive but the monthly fixed fee is $7.11. PNM is cheaper than NG country unless usage is over ~ 1800 kWh a month.
I do agree though that your pay-off period for PV should use 9.9 cents a kWh (and obviously not 7 cents) for the calc since that is your marginal cost.

The average monthly residential electricity bill in New Mexico is $75, which ranks 51st in the nation"

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Sure, but you have to normalize for amount of energy used. If you had read the link that you posted you would know that per kWh costs in NM average 11.37 cents which is 25th in the country.

The pay-off period calculation should include the cost of gasoline that some of this electricity is replacing.

SageBrush said:

I do agree though that your pay-off period for PV should use 9.9 cents a kWh (and obviously not 7 cents) for the calc since that is your marginal cost.

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91040 said:

The pay-off period calculation should include the cost of gasoline that some of this electricity is replacing.

SageBrush said:

I do agree though that your pay-off period for PV should use 9.9 cents a kWh (and obviously not 7 cents) for the calc since that is your marginal cost.

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Tempting to think that way but nothing prevents an EV owner from using grid electricity*.

I agree though that this question can become messy. E.g., consider a homeowner who is putting up PV. The more energy usage they cover, the more there is to spread out the fixed charges of the installation. At its extreme, the marginal cost to also cover an EV can be as low as the cost of the panels + racking. I think this is part of the reason why it is common to read of people that buy EV + PV at the same time.

*I'm obviously ignoring off-grid

That's why I specifically said base rate.

On the flip side I could get about a $30 power bill for using 60 kwh (with sales tax) and have a 50 cent a kwh overall rate.

If I were to generate more solar power than I use I get paid generation rate. Which is only "3 cents per kwh" according to the coops electrical engineer.
So I would have to generate what I use plus an additional 833 kwh to 0 out that $25 dollar surcharge.
That would take around 5,500w of fixed installed capacity.
I'm only allowed to connect 12kw of panels on a single phase 240v service.

Oilpan4 said:

That's why I specifically said base rate.

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You erred in your calculated pay-off time by ~ 40% by using 7 cents a kWh.

Oilpan4 said:

I pitty the fools who think a 10 to 20 year pay back is acceptable. Ain't nobody got time for that.

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'Pitty' is not a word.

A system with a 20 year pay-off is cheaper from day #1 than sticking with utility electricity. If saving money is the only goal then the people you should pity are those without PV.

Why do you ignore the costs of pollution and AGW ?

SageBrush said:

You erred in your calculated pay-off time by ~ 40% by using 7 cents a kWh.

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This is only true if he can avoid the monthly surcharge by going solar. Ie: If he plans to grid disconnect (in which case, his prices will be MUCH higher as batteries are $$$$$). If he remains connected to the grid, the $25 surcharge should be excluded from the kWh calculation, since he'll still have to pay it with solar. This means that 7 cents a kWh is correct.

Oilpan4 said:

At the last home and garden show both local Solar companies were there. They were offering a 6kw system for $17,000 after other people's money was applied.

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I don't know your area, but that's high in my area. A good quote in my area would be around 2.95c/kWh for a 6kw system, installed, which comes out to $17,700 BEFORE the federal tax credit ($12.4k after other people's money).

Oilpan4 said:

I want to pay more like $3,000 to $4,000 for 6kw.

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Cool? I want lots of things too. But that's not realistic. Parts alone for such a system are around $8,000 ($5,600 after other people's money). Then you have to add on labor, permitting, and other costs.
https://www.wholesalesolar.com/1891564/wholesale-solar/complete-systems/6-kw-grid-tied-solar-system-with-solaredge-and-16-mission-solar-375-watt-panels

If you utilize used parts and do the install yourself, you may be able to hit 4k. Until then, you'll be paying utility rates for electricity. But even if you did the $5,600 and installed it yourself, your payback would be very very fast.

Lothsahn said:

SageBrush said:

You erred in your calculated pay-off time by ~ 40% by using 7 cents a kWh.

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This is only true if he can avoid the monthly surcharge by going solar. Ie: If he plans to grid disconnect (in which case, his prices will be MUCH higher as batteries are $$$$$). If he remains connected to the grid, the $25 surcharge should be excluded from the kWh calculation, since he'll still have to pay it with solar. This means that 7 cents a kWh is correct.

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No, the 7 cents a kWh Oil-y mentioned is the "base rate" per kWh charged by his utility; it is not the customer per kWh rate after the per kWh avoided fees and taxes are considered.

I can show you an example from my bill in NM, from PNM:



Notice that my "base" kWh charge is 7.8 cents a kWh for the first 450 kWh but I also pay a 2.25 cents per kWh 'fuel adjustment fee' for the fossil sourced component and approximately an extra 9.6% of that amount for taxes and a conservation program. None of these amounts are related to the monthly connection fee aka 'customer charge.'

SageBrush said:

No, the 7 cents a kWh Oil-y mentioned is the "base rate" per kWh charged by his utility; it is not the customer per kWh rate after the per kWh avoided fees and taxes are considered.

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Okay, I stand corrected then on the 7c/kWh. As I stated before, all per-kWh fees should be included in the kWh calculation, except any fixed fees. Fixed fees, such as his $25/mth connection fee should NOT be included.

SageBrush said:

I can show you an example from my bill in NM, from PNM:

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Renewables cost looks favorable on that bill. Maybe the utility should expand that source.

reposted