possible new leaf owner - wanted to say 'hi' and ask some questions

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garyd9

Member
Joined
Apr 23, 2019
Messages
7
Location
Pittsburgh, PA (USA)
Good evening,

I'm very seriously considering purchasing a 2019 Leaf SL (non-plus) and hope I could ask a few questions to help me make this decision... In no particular order, as they pop into my head:

First, I'd be changing from a Toyota RAV4 Hybrid (which my wife is taking and I'll use her car as a trade.) Moving from a "CUV" to a compact (sub compact?) car seems like it'd be a large adjustment. How is the leaf's comfort for an almost 6 foot tall man who is a bit overweight? I've test driven the leaf, but often times a test drive doesn't reveal some comfort issues that might be experienced driving every day.

I've read (in this forum) that some people seem to have a major problem with the leather trim seats in the Leaf. However, I can't seem to find reference to any specific problems. Is it a poor quality leather, too thin, or... what? I know that some people (who wear shorts often) don't like leather because it gets hot/cold, but that's really not a concern for me.

How long could I expect to own the car in Western PA (Pittsburgh area) before the 40 KWh battery degrades by 50%? Nissan will replace the battery if it gets "below 9 out of 12 bars" in 8 yrs/100k miles, but I'm not sure what that really means. For all I know, their battery "bars" are as meaningless as signal strength "bars" on a mobile phone.

My daily commute (at the current time) is 32 miles a day (round trip) so I expect the non-plus will be plenty even on colder days even if I can only top of the battery with a level 1 charge at night (and for longer periods over the weekend if needed.)

Eventually, I'd wire a 220 jack/charger in my garage, but probably NOT the 220v, 50amps that the nissan supplied cable expects. Am I correct that if I use a different EVSE that's designed for lower amperage, that it'd actually supply less amperage to the car?

How does the car handle in snow/ice?

How does the car handle and feel on a highway going 65-75 MPH? Obviously, the "engine" wouldn't be noisy, but is there much wind noise? Is the drive smooth? (No dealership wants to let me drive their car on a highway to test this myself.)

In testing, I noticed that the car has nice pick-up. Does that change when the battery is lower than full? (The reason for asking is that in the toyota hybrid I have now, the battery supplies less power as it's charge gets lower and the ICE kicks in sooner.)

Every car make/model/trim has issues that most owners know about. For example, my RAV4 has the upgraded JBL amp/stereo/speakers that's actually a major downgrade. Often times, owners don't find out about these things until AFTER they've signed on the dotted line. What are the issues I should expect to see from the '19 Leaf SL (with tech package)?

As someone who's never before owned (or leased) an EV, is there anything else I should know? (Please don't use acronyms without defining them. I've seen GOM, SOH, Ahr, and a few others that I'm still not sure what they mean...)

Thank you
Gary
 
I'll add to this later, but for now a few quick answers:

* I'm the one who complaints most about the leather seats. There is nothing wrong with the quality: for me the issue is that they are leather. Leather seats are hot in Summer, cold in Winter, and are made from animal hides. I'm a vegetarian.

* The Leaf II isn't noisy at highway or freeway speeds. Not silent, but quieter than most ICE cars.

* The acceleration remains the same until the car is very, very low on charge. However, there seems to be an issue with driving fast, uphill, with less than 50% charge, and the heater running in cold weather. The charge level display seems to be programmed to try to scare you into slowing down by displaying a falsely low state of charge, and there may be a loss of power, under those conditions.

* I'm only 5'9", but in general people under about 6'2" seem to fit the Leaf fine. I am kind of fat these days, and still find the seats fine. One related issue is with the center console being too wide, intruding into the space for the driver's right leg.
 
garyd9 said:
Eventually, I'd wire a 220 jack/charger in my garage, but probably NOT the 220v, 50amps that the nissan supplied cable expects. Am I correct that if I use a different EVSE that's designed for lower amperage, that it'd actually supply less amperage to the car?

The signal from the EVSE tells the car how many amps it can pull. You must of course only install the EVSE on a circuit whose wiring can supply those amps. More specifically, the device is only allowed to pull a maximum of 80% of the circuit's capacity. So on a 20 amp circuit you can only install a 16A EVSE, etc...

Some EVSE can be adjusted to supply more than one amperage level.
 
I'll add a few things:
I own a 2011, so it's different than the 2019. They did a redesign in 2018.

That said, it's one of the quietest cars I've ever driven, especially at low speeds. It is also quiet on the highway. We call it Casper (the ghost).

I'm 5'10" and I fit just fine. I'm ~200 lbs. Again, redesign may have changed the interior.

With new Continental Procontacts and aligned it drives like a dream... Low CG, good cornering, and stable at all speeds.

Snow and ice: The stock tires (Ecopias) are all about maximum range. For ice/snow, they're ok, not great. With Procontacts I had no issues all winter (and we had a lot of ice). The car does have slightly less traction than most accelerating because the weight is 50/50, whereas most gas cars have most of the weight on the front wheels. Good for not spinning out, bad for going up steep, slick, icy hills. Most people wouldn't even notice. Essentially it handles like a mid-engine sports car.

The bars aren't arbitrary, but I don't know if they changed with the 40kWh. 8 bars used to correspond to roughly 65% capacity. My car has 7 bars at 57%. Your battery should last MUCH longer than mine (2011/2012 had defective batteries).

I get 20 miles with the heat cranked in the winter and 40-45 in the summer driving carefully. My car is a 24kWh battery, so your 40 kWh would have to degrade A LOT to fail your 32 mi commute. I wouldn't be worried about that unless you want to keep the car for 12+ years. You'll be in warranty for the first 10 years anyway...

110v charging should work for you, but I'd you do a lot of driving one day, it may literally take 2 days to charge to full.

If you do run a 240V circuit, pull 50A unless your panel absolutely can't. It'll be worth it for any future electric cars you might get, will work with all EVSEs, and it won't cost that much more than 30-40A.

Given your climate, I'd try to make sure the car has a heat pump (SV/SL).

Btw... Terms:
SOH: State of health (% capacity/health of the battery). This corresponds to the little bars on the dash
SOC: State of charge (% battery charge). This corresponds to the big bars on the dash.
GOM: guess of miles (Miles Left shown on dash)
Ah: ampere hours (Google it for a lengthy explanation)
 
Eventually, I'd wire a 220 jack/charger in my garage, but probably NOT the 220v, 50amps that the nissan supplied cable expects. Am I correct that if I use a different EVSE that's designed for lower amperage, that it'd actually supply less amperage to the car?

Nissan goofed big time by including a dual voltage EVSE that requires a 40 amp circuit, while implying that people can plug it into (typically 30 amp) dryer circuits. You don't need a 50 amp circuit, but you do need 40, because the National Electrical Code requires constant draw devices like EV charging stations and cable to have circuits with 20% more amperage available, to prevent overheating issues.

House voltages in the US are now primarily 120 and 240 volts. Some commercial charging stations and many townhouse type residences use 208 volt primary feeds. (I don't actually know if the lower voltage outlets in that case are 120, 110, or what...)

EDIT: OK, I checked. Regular outlet voltage in homes with 208 volt service is still 120 volts.
 
Given your climate, I'd try to make sure the car has a heat pump (SV/SL).

The heat pump is now optional on the SV (but standard on the SL). You have to get the SV All Weather Package to get the heat pump, heated steering wheel, and even heated seats.
 
Buy a brand of EV (Leaf is not it) that liquid cools its battery (for longevity), has long range (for trips if needed), has the best safety rating, has faster recharge rate (away from home), has a better resale value (less depreciation), has better charging infrastructure, etc. Then you can ditch all ice as soon as possible.
 
How long could I expect to own the car in Western PA (Pittsburgh area) before the 40 KWh battery degrades by 50%? Nissan will replace the battery if it gets "below 9 out of 12 bars" in 8 yrs/100k miles, but I'm not sure what that really means. For all I know, their battery "bars" are as meaningless as signal strength "bars" on a mobile phone.

Leafs have 12 little capacity "bars" (the original Leaf dashboard had a charge display that consisted of 12 "fuel bars" and the capacity bars were short little extensions of them on the display) displayed. IIRC, the 40kwh Leafs have a capacity screen that looks more like a cell phone battery display, with 12 segments that have no dividing lines. Anyway, the 12th bar (the first one to vanish as capacity drops) represents about 15% of the full capacity. The bars after that each represent about half that much. The capacity represented is real, and important, but the representation isn't extremely accurate. Still, this is the measure that Nissan uses to decide if you get a new battery under warranty.
 
garyd9 said:
How is the leaf's comfort for an almost 6 foot tall man who is a bit overweight?

I'm 6'-3" and 205 lbs and the 2013 fit is decent, but not perfect. The center console gets in the way of my knee, which on longer trips is uncomfortable and the seat kind of sucks too. But, that's unfortunately true of many cars - they aren't made for people over 6' tall.

garyd9 said:
How long could I expect to own the car in Western PA (Pittsburgh area) before the 40 KWh battery degrades by 50%?

Probably a decade.

garyd9 said:
Am I correct that if I use a different EVSE that's designed for lower amperage, that it'd actually supply less amperage to the car?

Yes, as long as the EVSE has the ability to operate at multiple amperage set points. An inexpensive portable EVSE that does that is the Zencar 32A model.

garyd9 said:
How does the car handle in snow/ice?

Better than any other car I've owned, but I don't own the 2019 LEAF.

garyd9 said:
How does the car handle and feel on a highway going 65-75 MPH? Obviously, the "engine" wouldn't be noisy, but is there much wind noise? Is the drive smooth?

The reviews I've seen are all pretty consistent - it's quiet.

garyd9 said:
In testing, I noticed that the car has nice pick-up. Does that change when the battery is lower than full?

On my 2013 SV, I don't notice any difference in "pick-up" at lower states of charge.

garyd9 said:
What are the issues I should expect to see from the '19 Leaf SL (with tech package)?

Likely similar issues to the 2018, so have a look at this ongoing post, among others:

http://www.mynissanleaf.com/viewtopic.php?f=55&t=25521
 
How does the car handle in snow/ice?

If you have little snow or ice, it handles as well as any other FWD car with all-season tires, and better than many. Add dedicated snow tires on all four wheels, and it handles great in snow and ice. The Michelin X-ice is a common choice, including for me. They are actually very quiet as well. If you want extra wheels for the snows, 17" Nissan Juke wheels fit fine. I'm not 100% sure if the 16" alloy wheels from previous Leafs fit, but I think the Leaf S still uses the same 16" steel wheels; if so, then 16" snows on 16" steel wheels should work great.
 
Leather seats: I have no problems with the typical hot/cold leather seats as I'm always wearing pants. I also have no issues with dead cows, sheep hair, plant skin, etc. Even purely synthetic seating surfaces can be related to dead animals or plants (even if only as a side effect of the chemical processes and pollution.)

@alozzy, how are the seats uncomfortable (beyond the center console?) The last time I bought a smaller car (a new ford focus), something in the driver seat drove into my right thigh and after a month or two was causing me actual pain while driving. It felt like a metal bar was pushed up in just the wrong place. The dealer told me everything was fine, so I ended up taking a major loss to get out of the painful car. I don't want to repeat that again (but it's very difficult to find those problems until you've driven around for a week or two.)

I appreciate all the replies so far. Please keep them coming.

Except, @evoforce, I'm not sure I understand your reply. I get the feeling that you're trying to say something without just coming out and saying it. Can you please elaborate? It appears that you aren't happy with the leaf, but suggesting that "something else" is better without more detail isn't really helpful. Also, could you tell me if you think your issues with the battery are general Leaf issues, or might be related to living in AZ?

Thank you
Gary
 
garyd9 said:
How is the leaf's comfort for an almost 6 foot tall man who is a bit overweight? I've test driven the leaf, but often times a test drive doesn't reveal some comfort issues that might be experienced driving every day.

I've read (in this forum) that some people seem to have a major problem with the leather trim seats in the Leaf. However, I can't seem to find reference to any specific problems. Is it a poor quality leather, too thin, or... what? I know that some people (who wear shorts often) don't like leather because it gets hot/cold, but that's really not a concern for me.

Eventually, I'd wire a 220 jack/charger in my garage, but probably NOT the 220v, 50amps that the nissan supplied cable expects. Am I correct that if I use a different EVSE that's designed for lower amperage, that it'd actually supply less amperage to the car?

How does the car handle and feel on a highway going 65-75 MPH? Obviously, the "engine" wouldn't be noisy, but is there much wind noise? Is the drive smooth? (No dealership wants to let me drive their car on a highway to test this myself.)

As someone who's never before owned (or leased) an EV, is there anything else I should know?

First of all Gary, welcome to the forum and to prospective LEAFing! Converting to EV is a wonderful experience in so many ways, and today’s options are pretty wonderful compared to the marketplace back in 2010 when I registered to order my LEAF. EV’s have progressed from “early adopter” vehicles to almost mainstream, in my view. I think that is because of the much greater range today’s EV’s have.

As to your queries:

1- I’m 6’2”, 250 lb, have no difficulty getting into or out of my LEAF, and I find the seats very comfortable. The LEAF is still a compact/subcompact car so I wouldn’t call the interior roomy, but indeed it is comfy. As a point of comparison, it is MUCH easier to get into/out of my LEAF than my Model 3. Right knee room is the biggest restriction for me if I get in the car after my wife has left the seat forward. In my normal driving position, even that isn’t much of a factor. My SL has cloth seating as leather was not offered on model year (MY) 2012. Like others, I prefer cloth to leather/pleather/vegan leather for comfort reasons, but that’s a personal preference.

2- As to highway driving, remember this is a real car, not a go-kart. It drives very well and smoothly at Interstate speeds. I get more road noise from the tires against whatever odd surface was last used to re-pave than I do wind or other noises...just like most cars. Obviously there are no ICE noises, but also no high speed whines from the motor nor electrical noises at speed. I also don’t understand why a dealer would not want to have you experience highway driving. I was encouraged to take mine out on the highway.

3- Lastly, I’d reconsider the choice to NOT provide a 240v charging opportunity. While many owners use 120v for their typical short commutes, and that can certainly work, a dedicated 240v charging solution is a wonderful convenience. If you have any thoughts of spending any money at all for your home’s charging setup, and you can afford to do so, I can’t strongly enough recommend a 240v solution for the speed, convenience of being able to leave the vehicle’s own charging cable in the car for emergencies, and safety of not sharing a circuit with other home uses. Also as to how much juice actually gets to the car while charging is dependent upon several things: the vehicle will only accept a certain amperage, a given EVSE will only provide a certain amperage, an electrical circuit will only provide a certain amperage, and the lowest of these rules. Circuit wiring is driven by National Electrical and local codes specifying wire size for given amounts of distance, current, and voltage and circuit breaker sizes to handle that. EVSE’s are designed to take that juice, temper it to the load the car wants and do so using standard, typically J1772, connections that have built-in safety features to allow, for example, charging in the rain outside without electrical leakage. And the vehicle will only accept so much current at a time. So, after all this, my recommendation is to determine how you want to typically park the car, determine where you want an installed EVSE to reach the vehicle’s charging port, hire a local and licensed electrician to provide current 25% greater than the maximum the car and EVSE can accept, and get ‘er done. By the way, this should “future proof” your EVSE for other vehicles you may acquire. The AeroVironment EVSE I purchased through Nissan back in 2012 provided 32amps to the vehicle, which my 2012 can’t use so the car is the limiting factor. I use the same EVSE today still for my LEAF and also for my Model 3 which can accept 48amps so the EVSE is now the limiting factor in my setup for the Tesla, even though I have it on a circuit designed to provide 60amps to the EVSE. I had this wired in case I ever wanted to buy the Tesla EVSE which can provide that 48amps to my car.

Apologize for the long rant...and good luck with your decisions and EV ownership!
 
Gary,
From your original post, making an assumption that you have more than one car in the household. The key aspect to remember about the LEAF is it does many things very well, but the technology is not the best for long distance usage where the battery is recharged multiple times per day. That’s where the 2nd car becomes important. If your intended usage is a local commuter & grocery getter, it can be a fine choice. Are there betting battery systems on the market? Sure... If you never use the car in hot climate conditions, Nissan’s passive battery cooling is not likely to contribute to significantly faster degradation than more complex & expensive systems.

My usage conditions in NE Ohio are similar to Pittsburgh except for the hills. I would be more concerned about cold weather (keeping the battery warm and cabin heat) and ample reserve capacity for the hills. 40KWh should be ample for what you described for many years. I’m running up to 100 miles/day into Cleveland, mostly 65-70 mph expressways on @ 2/3 the battery at most. Focus your concerns on home charging, ability to leave it plugged in to pre-condition the cabin in Winter, other comfort concerns. Whatever choice you make, do not get talked into a LEAF without the weather package. There are many currently in stock this way around Pittsburgh with aggressive pricing. Also, ask your dealer about utility company based rebates, it’s what separates LEAF from the crowd on price and provides cost parity to comparable ICE vehicles. Good luck with your choice.
 
rogersleaf said:
From your original post, making an assumption that you have more than one car in the household.
Yes. The leaf would be my "daily driver" for getting to/from work, and occasional errands. Any longer trips or trips requiring storage space would be in the RAV4.

rogersleaf said:
My usage conditions in NE Ohio are similar to Pittsburgh except for the hills. I would be more concerned about cold weather (keeping the battery warm and cabin heat) and ample reserve capacity for the hills. 40KWh should be ample for what you described for many years.
Okay, you probably have a nearly identical temperature range to me (and a lot more snow.)

I have an attached garage that rarely gets below 50F, so morning cold shouldn't be too much of a problem. I think the SL trim has the battery heater (and the rest of the weather package goodies) included.

That leads to another question: Will the battery heater work when charging from level 1 (110v) or does that require level 2? I do intend to eventually get 220v, but it'll be several months before I do so. I want to have a better feel for what my needs are, which side of the garage I'll be parking in, how cumbersome the cables might be, etc. Oh, and I also want to wait for the PA state rebate check to pay for the electrician and charger. ;)

The dealers here in western PA seem to be very... anti-EV. Not only do they not know about any utility rebates, they actively stonewall when I ask about one I already know of. My electric company offers a $3500 rebate specifically on 2019 non-plus leaf's (some partnership with nissan), but it has to be done via the dealership. (To be honest, without that rebate I wouldn't be considering the car.) The dealership I've talked to claimed ignorance when I asked about that rebate until I insisted that they research it, gave them the rebate code, etc.
 
garyd9 said:
The dealers here in western PA seem to be very... anti-EV. Not only do they not know about any utility rebates, they actively stonewall when I ask about one I already know of. My electric company offers a $3500 rebate specifically on 2019 non-plus leaf's (some partnership with nissan), but it has to be done via the dealership. (To be honest, without that rebate I wouldn't be considering the car.) The dealership I've talked to claimed ignorance when I asked about that rebate until I insisted that they research it, gave them the rebate code, etc.

Car dealerships can be very anti-EV as it partly breaks their business model. Service department is a large fraction of dealership income, and with an EV much less service required.
 
Gary,
Should also know that $3500 utility rebate likely comes with a pre-negotiated price discount for the car if PA’s program mirrors Ohio. The actual value is closer to $6500 off and the dealer makes almost nothing on selling the car. Didn’t figure that out until the dealer called Nissan to factor in the rebate and was told the price. So don’t be surprised if getting some pushback or anti-EV attitudes from local dealers.
 
The battery heater is one aspect, weather package is different & separate.

The battery heater is included on all new LEAFs in your area and works with or without being plugged in. However, it’s only intended for keeping the battery from physically freezing, not keeping it in a temp range to where the battery performs efficiently. I found with my previous LEAF that I had to use the car daily to keep the battery at decent temps in cold weather. If I parked it for several days, they cooled down which cut into range. Keeping it inside the attached garage helps a lot. I found it necessary to drive & charge a day ahead of time to stretch my range after several days of non-use in winter.

The weather package includes heated seats, heated steering wheel and in SV’s rear heat ducts & heat pump HVAC. SL has this standard. You don’t want to be without this package in Pittsburgh.
 
rogersleaf said:
Gary,
Should also know that $3500 utility rebate likely comes with a pre-negotiated price discount for the car if PA’s program mirrors Ohio.

No such luck here. Here's a link to the flyer for the utility sponsored rebate. (I'm a customer, not an employee): https://duquesnelight.com/docs/default-source/pdf-library/fy19-q1-leaf-fleetail-dlc.pdf

Something new on my power company website: "EV bill credit for plug-in electric vehicles. Receive $60 per vehicle just for letting us know you own or lease an EV." I'm assuming that this is a one-time credit and not a monthly credit. ;)
 
garyd9 said:
Except, @evoforce, I'm not sure I understand your reply. I get the feeling that you're trying to say something without just coming out and saying it. Can you please elaborate? It appears that you aren't happy with the leaf, but suggesting that "something else" is better without more detail isn't really helpful. Also, could you tell me if you think your issues with the battery are general Leaf issues, or might be related to living in AZ?

evoforce is saying buy a Tesla. He provides some valid reasons for doing so (longer range, supercharging network, thermally controlled battery, better safety, better depreciation).

What he doesn't mention is the Leaf is still a very safe car (although not as safe as a Tesla), depreciation on the 40 kWh Leafs vs Tesla Model 3 is unclear (2018 40 kWh Leafs with 20k miles are only $5k cheaper than 2019 new Leafs), the reliability of a Tesla is far worse, and the Tesla will cost significantly more. Early Leaf models depreciated very quickly as better EVs came to market.

With the new battery chemistries, I would expect your battery to last at least 10 years in Pittsburg, PA with significant capacity left (70%+). While the Tesla battery will last longer, I think you're OK. if you lived in AZ, I would not recommend a new Leaf.
 
garyd9 said:
No such luck here. Here's a link to the flyer for the utility sponsored rebate. (I'm a customer, not an employee): https://duquesnelight.com/docs/default-source/pdf-library/fy19-q1-leaf-fleetail-dlc.pdf

Pretty sure you get the rebate.

Simply bring to your participating Nissan dealership
(i) a copy of this flyer
(ii) proof of eligible residency
(iii) your current monthly electric bill or current proof of employment with Duquesne Light Company.

If you're a resident and have a current monthly electric bill, you should get $11k off a new Leaf ($7500 federal+$3500 utility). However, the Federal rebate only applies if you have enough taxes to cover the credit. For instance, if you only pay $5k in taxes this year, you'll only get a $5k credit.
 
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