BrockWI
Well-known member
OrientExpress said:
So is the Plus more quiet than the regular? If so that is even better.
2019 "60 kWh" Leaf e-Plus
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So is the Plus more quiet than the regular? If so that is even better.
OrientExpress
Well-known member
Yes, in my measurements, the Plus is quieter than the SR LEAF.
OrientExpress
Well-known member
lorenfb said:
Well, that is certainly one way of looking at it, but a more informed way is to look at the 2019 car is as the best of the LEAF Gen 1/Gen 2 series cars.
I say that because of the LEAF Plus excels in these factors:
Competitive Range with its competitors
Best of series NVH mitigation
Best of series battery durability
Fastest acceleration of the series
Best of series charging capability
Best value of series and with its competitors
Continuing with the best reliability of any BEV
A great lead-in BEV for Nissan's first purpose-built BEV platform
Comparable weight, size and capacity to other "late to the party" Asian competitors
Personally I would rather call the LEAF Plus the LEAF LR or the LEAF Heavy.
That is a claim completely without supporting data. Try not to oversell so blatantly...
Leaf Plus has more weight and is thus less efficient, which results in increased motor power which then results in higher battery current which then causes more battery heat I^2 X R. So will battery degradation be greater for the Plus?
OrientExpress
Well-known member
LeftieBiker said:
That's a response without any basis as well.
OrientExpress
Well-known member
lorenfb said:
Well, whatever that means isn't what is happening.
DougWantsALeaf
Well-known member
Very interesting that the scale weight was 200 more than the list weight.
Does the door listed weight say the same?
Does the door listed weight say the same?
OrientExpress said:
You don't: know that without an extensive evaluation over time, i.e. your guess. My implication is based on simple battery and electronics theory. It's already a fact that lengthy QCs cause problematic battery heat
for the 40 Leaf.
Driving at 65 versus 50 causes my 40 Leaf to increase battery temp from 75 F to 100F after about 30 minutes of driving. The plus will be worse.
Note: At 4000 lbs the plus is significantly heavier than the M3 and close to the MS (4300 lbs).
OrientExpress
Well-known member
I believe the number on the door is how much weight the vehicle can carry as it is over 1000 pounds more then the measured weightDougWantsALeaf said:
The actual weight of the SL Plus is about the same as both the Niro and Kona highline variants.
Also the Plus’s battery temp never wavered between a quarter way to the middle of the scale despite multiple quick charges a few hours apart and with aggressive uphill mountain driving at 70+ mph. It’s temperature profile did not follow the early 2018 40kWh cars in any way.
Using assumptions from earlier versions of the LEAF don’t seem to applicable to the LR LEAF.
OrientExpress said:
No. Noting that the battery you are making claims about is too new to be rated for durability or reliability is based on our present understanding of time and causality.
OrientExpress
Well-known member
Yeah, maybe five years ago, but not today. There’s been a lot of learning that’s happened in the intervening years. And I’m not making any claims here, just telling it like it is.
OrientExpress said:
OrientExpress said:
Really?
Many engineering design evaluations of the Leaf Plus would consider it as brute-force design attempt at achieving
a range goal without consideration of overall vehicle efficiency and with a minimum concern for battery degradation.
With the Leaf Plus, Nissan pushed the limits of its present battery technology by not using TMS, given the poor overall
vehicle efficiency, added weight, and limited quick charging frequency and rates (kW). As a result, the Leaf Plus basically
is a very limited BEV with a daily range marginally exceeding 200+ miles, i.e. not for major/lengthy intercity travel
without potentially affecting battery life. If the Leaf Plus is driven conservatively and limited at most to one quick
charge per day, it should provide fairly good utility.
It's unfortunate that the M3 lacks much of the appeal of the Nissan Leafs for some, and most importantly isn't being
delivered at a price competitive to the Leaf Plus, or less would consider the Leaf Plus for its range. Other BEVs,
are not readily available, or lack (the Bolt) the features/size of the Leaf Plus making it the only present 200+ mile range
alternate to the M3. It appears that those interested in the Leaf Plus either haven't owned an earlier Leaf or are unfamiliar
with the 24/30 kWh Leaf battery degradation issues, and solely focus on the 200+ mile range feature.
OrientExpress
Well-known member
Really? Yes, Really. Every time I hear some self-proclaimed battery expert pontificating about the superiority of TMS I think "Gwad here comes grandpa and his wayback machine." Assumptions made eight years ago might have made sense then, things have moved on, and on for the better.
Building a great EV is not a monotheist effort, it is multidimensional coloboration, where many times multiple other needs compete with the engineering the best solution. But you know what, smart engineers take the challenge and make it better, faster, and cheaper. During that process the iterations sometimes works OK and sometimes they doesn't work as good as they could. But continuous improvement works to get the best solution that compliments all the considerations.
I'm very lucky that I get to talk to the real experts in industry and here about what is really going on, and I'm very encouraged.
Lastly, let me make an observation, Every time someone bashes earlier versions of the LEAF and uses them as proof of their arguments, all they do is show how they have failed to keep current in the state of the art. Staying up to speed on things is important, and not just blogs, but by reading professional technical journals on the subject. Almost all of them are free, and have some great stuff in them. The automotive traction battery and their systems are going through changes big time, and technology that might have been in production for only a year or two is now obsolete. And let's not forget that this business is not exactly a money maker right now in an industry that is going through an even bigger market transformation. Also let's not forget that the tip of the spear in this transformation is electromotive personal transportation.
It's exciting times for all of us.
Building a great EV is not a monotheist effort, it is multidimensional coloboration, where many times multiple other needs compete with the engineering the best solution. But you know what, smart engineers take the challenge and make it better, faster, and cheaper. During that process the iterations sometimes works OK and sometimes they doesn't work as good as they could. But continuous improvement works to get the best solution that compliments all the considerations.
I'm very lucky that I get to talk to the real experts in industry and here about what is really going on, and I'm very encouraged.
Lastly, let me make an observation, Every time someone bashes earlier versions of the LEAF and uses them as proof of their arguments, all they do is show how they have failed to keep current in the state of the art. Staying up to speed on things is important, and not just blogs, but by reading professional technical journals on the subject. Almost all of them are free, and have some great stuff in them. The automotive traction battery and their systems are going through changes big time, and technology that might have been in production for only a year or two is now obsolete. And let's not forget that this business is not exactly a money maker right now in an industry that is going through an even bigger market transformation. Also let's not forget that the tip of the spear in this transformation is electromotive personal transportation.
It's exciting times for all of us.
Comparing the current Leaf packs to earlier ones with very similar designs makes more logical sense than claiming that the new packs are "Best of series battery durability" because the people you know in Nissan Corporate have told you that it is so. We have no idea how durable the current 40kwh and 62kwh packs are, and won't know for at least another several years. The evidence we do have right now is that there have been quite a few cell failures in the 40kwh packs (along with the 30kwh packs), and that some of them (like mine) are showing less than stellar retention of original capacity. These do not suggest "Best of series battery durability".
BoulderLeaf
Well-known member
lorenfb said:
Not necessarily. It all depends on R (the internal resistance of the battery), and from all information available when the 60kWh pack was first showcased the internal resistance has been improved considerably. Some proof of this may be in the fact that the maximum QC charge rate has been lifted to 100kW (again, I^2 R heating comes into play here). TMS isn't a perfect solution (as has been discussed here ad nauseum) and I believe that long term battery stability (both in degradation and thermal capacity) will be achieved without a TMS.
I'm actually quite hopeful for this battery, and the LEAF Plus in general. I'm curious what a summer's time does for battery degradation as the 40kWh suffered initial high losses (5+%?). If it looks good then we might be in the market for one as we test drove one recently and really liked it.
BoulderLeaf
Well-known member
LeftieBiker said:
If I may ask, do you have a bounds on your 40kWh battery degradation?
BoulderLeaf
Well-known member
OrientExpress said:
I've read references to an upcoming purpose built EV platform in a few places, and I think you are the source of this info. Do you have any more info here? Am I correct in understanding that this would be a 2021 MY?
