Official Tesla Model 3 thread

My Nissan Leaf Forum

Help Support My Nissan Leaf Forum:

This site may earn a commission from merchant affiliate links, including eBay, Amazon, and others.
lorenfb said:
webb14leafs said:
They currently have a product (M3) with very respectable sales, even though the style and price point don't match the overall market.

So Tesla does have a problem, which is affecting demand, right? Can you explain this, "very respectable sales", with some detail,
given that now the demand for all Tesla vehicles has declined in the first four months of 2019 versus Q4 of 2018? Remember,
both Nokia & Blackberry had "very respectable sales" and GPs, notwithstanding Apple. Tesla is nowhere near achieving critical
mass in the automotive marketplace, i.e. to compete with the likes of GM, Toyota, VW, etc.!

webb14leafs said:
The margins are solid, and if you only consider the current models they are near sustained profitability.

You like many ignore the fact that without an adequate sales volume, stating a product's GP per vehicle is a non-sequitur.

So we're back to the demand short-thesis now? Pretty sure you and your ilk made the same claim back in Feb? As well as Q1 of 2018? Not saying there's infinite demand, because no product has infinite demand. Just pointing out the obvious, because you seem to be arguing for the sake of arguing.
 
EVDRIVER said:
Soon to be ex forum troller if things do not change soon.

Dislike facts or reality, so it's trolling, right? The last I checked, this is a Nissan Leaf forum, what's with all the Tesla promos?
When's the last time you commented on a Leaf issue other than denigrate the Leaf in favor of a Tesla? It appears many
here besides you just promote Telsa topics. What's that all about?
 
lorenfb said:
EVDRIVER said:
Soon to be ex forum troller if things do not change soon.

Dislike facts or reality, so it's trolling, right? The last I checked, this is a Nissan Leaf forum, what's with all the Tesla promos?
When's the last time you commented on a Leaf issue other than denigrate the Leaf in favor of a Tesla? It appears many
here besides you just promote Telsa topics. What's that all about?

Because this is the Tesla Model 3 thread? Kinda like how it would be frowned upon to talk about the Leaf in the Toyota Mirai thread?

But you already knew that and just want to stir trouble ... which is what trolling is isn't it?
 
Oils4AsphaultOnly said:
So we're back to the demand short-thesis now? Pretty sure you and your ilk made the same claim back in Feb? As well as Q1 of 2018? Not saying there's infinite demand, because no product has infinite demand. Just pointing out the obvious, because you seem to be arguing for the sake of arguing.

OK, then we wait for June results, and then further assess the demand issue. Remember, Elon's latest is 250-300K for 2019.
Given the average GP of the M3 and Q1 losses, one can easily determine the necessary breakeven Tesla sales volume needed.
 
Oils4AsphaultOnly said:
Because this is the Tesla Model 3 thread? Kinda like how it would be frowned upon to talk about the Leaf in the Toyota Mirai thread?

But you already knew that and just want to stir trouble ... which is what trolling is isn't it?

Sorry you missed the point! Few if any Tesla promoters/posters comment/contribute to Leaf discussions. Tesla still has a number
of forums to discuss Tesla issues, right? So only positive Tesla issues on Tesla threads on MNL? Oh, OK.
 
lorenfb said:
Oils4AsphaultOnly said:
Because this is the Tesla Model 3 thread? Kinda like how it would be frowned upon to talk about the Leaf in the Toyota Mirai thread?

But you already knew that and just want to stir trouble ... which is what trolling is isn't it?

Sorry you missed the point! Few if any Tesla promoters/posters comment/contribute to Leaf discussions. Tesla still has a number
of forums to discuss Tesla issues, right? So only positive Tesla issues on Tesla threads on MNL? Oh, OK.

Labeling the positive viewpoints of current Tesla owners [ posting on a Tesla thread ] as "Tesla promoters", and using that as justification for your negative posts on Tesla [ which points to a hatred of Tesla ] is pretty flawed reasoning.

If you own a Tesla and had issues with it, then I think people would be more receptive to your negative viewpoints. But right now, all I'm seeing is an agenda and a vested interest completely divorced from the product.
 
lorenfb said:
EVDRIVER said:
Soon to be ex forum troller if things do not change soon.

Dislike facts or reality, so it's trolling, right? The last I checked, this is a Nissan Leaf forum, what's with all the Tesla promos?
When's the last time you commented on a Leaf issue other than denigrate the Leaf in favor of a Tesla? It appears many
here besides you just promote Telsa topics. What's that all about?


It is not about your opinion or about a debate on facts it is your posting behavior which is being called out by multiple members, often and over long periods of time. You have been warned by other mods before. This is an official warning, other sites would have banned you a long time ago. Any ban will permanent. You are not on this thread solely to debate facts or opinions and you know this.
 
EVDRIVER said:
It is not about your opinion or about a debate on facts it is your posting behavior which is being called out by multiple members, often and over long periods of time. You have been warned by other mods before. This is an official warning, other sites would have banned you a long time ago. Any ban will permanent. You are not on this thread solely to debate facts or opinions and you know this.
I enjoy LorenFB's posts and I fail to see personal attacks which people should get banned for, although I could easily have missed something. I have seen personal attacks by others without a warning. For example I dislike how OrientExpress gets attacked and they have very informative posts also.
 
Oils4AsphaultOnly said:
If you own a Tesla and had issues with it, then I think people would be more receptive to your negative viewpoints. But right now, all I'm seeing is an agenda and a vested interest completely divorced from the product.

The M3 is a well designed BEV with leading technology in numerous areas. I never minimized that aspect. Other than to indicate for
the most part, that Tesla's technology is widely known and available to other OEMs. Personally I find the 40 kWh Leaf more appealing
for my needs, and without the negatives of the M3 I've expressed on MNL.

My key objections are with Tesla's management and marketing of its products. Why the need for the "smoke & mirrors" approach
when presenting and discussing Tesla's near term guidance? Frequent full sales and financial disclosures will most likely result in
less stock volatility in the long run, and less short selling. There's no need for Elon's typical hyperbolic presentations which denote,
as an example, that FSD (full self driving) will be available by late 2020 or sooner;

https://www.theverge.com/2019/4/22/18510828/tesla-elon-musk-autonomy-day-investor-comments-self-driving-cars-predictions

And then making comments such as this;
It’s financially insane to buy anything other than a Tesla.
Or this;
Tesla unveiled a new microchip that Musk said was being included in every new Tesla produced today.
He called “the best chip in the world… objectively.”
There're more than enough very good word-of-mouth data on Tesla products, without the need for such comments.

The financial data I've used in presenting my perspective on Tesla are publicly available from Tesla's P&L statements. The calculations
used are very simple Accounting 101 theory that most can derive from what has been posted. It's unfortunate that some disapprove
of viewing Tesla's financial and market position analytically. One always has the option to ignore my posts or to refute the
calculations using the same publicly available financial data.
 
DanCar said:
EVDRIVER said:
It is not about your opinion or about a debate on facts it is your posting behavior which is being called out by multiple members, often and over long periods of time. You have been warned by other mods before. This is an official warning, other sites would have banned you a long time ago. Any ban will permanent. You are not on this thread solely to debate facts or opinions and you know this.
I enjoy LorenFB's posts and I fail to see personal attacks which people should get banned for, although I could easily have missed something. I have seen personal attacks by others without a warning.
I agree w/DanCar here. Who's doing this "calling out"? I suspect it's a tiny vocal (?) minority of Tesla fans, fanboys and those long TSLA stock.

https://www.gamesradar.com/psychology-fanboys-explained-professional/ explains the behavior I've sometimes seen here and frequently at TMC quite well. It is part of why I've had to disengage from TMC from time to time, sometimes for months.

Although Loren and Ed (who seems banned and where I personally ignored most of his posts on certain (non-TSLA) topics) might be a bit over the top w/negativity about Tesla and Elon, I can't recall anything he's done that makes it ban-worthy on a NISSAN LEAF site. There are a few (previously a few more) folks who frankly are rather abrasive here on MNL and should tone things down but yet at least one of them is still here.

The "complainers" should just add lorenfb to their foes list and chill. Take a step back. There's very little that lorenfb could post here that could move TSLA stock in a significant way for any significant period of time. The world will go on. TSLA's status is unlikely to change due to his posts here.
lorenfb said:
My key objections are with Tesla's management and marketing of its products. Why the need for the "smoke & mirrors" approach
when presenting and discussing Tesla's near term guidance? Frequent full sales and financial disclosures will most likely result in
less stock volatility in the long run, and less short selling. There's no need for Elon's typical hyperbolic presentations which denote,
as an example, that FSD (full self driving) will be available by late 2020 or sooner;

https://www.theverge.com/2019/4/22/18510828/tesla-elon-musk-autonomy-day-investor-comments-self-driving-cars-predictions

And then making comments such as this;
It’s financially insane to buy anything other than a Tesla.
Or this;
Tesla unveiled a new microchip that Musk said was being included in every new Tesla produced today.
He called “the best chip in the world… objectively.”
There're more than enough very good word-of-mouth data on Tesla products, without the need for such comments.
Indeed. The hyperbole is insane and keeps happening over and over.

I pointed out even more at http://www.mynissanleaf.com/viewtopic.php?p=556276#p556276 from https://www.cnbc.com/2019/05/02/elon-musk-on-investor-call-autonomy-will-make-tesla-a-500b-company.html.
Musk confidently told investors on the call that autonomous driving will transform Tesla into a company with a $500 billion market cap, these people said. Its current market cap stands around $42 billion. He also said that existing Teslas will increase in value as self-driving capabilities are added via software, and will be worth up to $250,000 within three years.
...
Musk reiterated that because Teslas can be upgraded “over-the-air” with new software-enabled features and functionality, they will appreciate in value, unlike nearly every other car on the market. A Tesla will be worth $150,000 to $250,000 in 3 years, he claimed. He also said that a full self-driving upgrade will increase the value of any Tesla by a half order of magnitude, or five times.
:roll:
lorenfb said:
The financial data I've used in presenting my perspective on Tesla are publicly available from Tesla's P&L statements. The calculations
used are very simple Accounting 101 theory that most can derive from what has been posted. It's unfortunate that some disapprove
of viewing Tesla's financial and market position analytically. One always has the option to ignore my posts or to refute the
calculations using the same publicly available financial data.
+1
 
The "complainers" should just add lorenfb to their foes list and chill. Take a step back.

I agree. There is a difference between someone annoying you and them engaging in behavior that should result in banning. I'd also like to note that a warning is one thing, and banning is another, considerably worse action that should require really bad behavior to be triggered...
 
lorenfb said:
EVDRIVER said:
Soon to be ex forum troller if things do not change soon.

Dislike facts or reality, so it's trolling, right? The last I checked, this is a Nissan Leaf forum, what's with all the Tesla promos?
When's the last time you commented on a Leaf issue other than denigrate the Leaf in favor of a Tesla? It appears many
here besides you just promote Telsa topics. What's that all about?

I own a Leaf, which I love. That drove me to this board. I also own Tesla stock, and I think that Tesla is vital to advancing and accelerating the consumer shift to technologies that will combat climate change. That's why I'm on this thread. I used to comment on my Leaf, but honestly, it is boringly and reliably awesome, so not much to post. The battery continues to degrade, but that's not worth complaining about. Still a bargain and a joy to drive and own.

I don't think you should be banned, and I'm sorry if I'm contributing to any sort of escalation. There are two sides to this healthy and interesting debate on the viability of one of the most polarizing companies in modern history.
 
lorenfb said:
Oils4AsphaultOnly said:
If you own a Tesla and had issues with it, then I think people would be more receptive to your negative viewpoints. But right now, all I'm seeing is an agenda and a vested interest completely divorced from the product.

The M3 is a well designed BEV with leading technology in numerous areas. I never minimized that aspect. Other than to indicate for
the most part, that Tesla's technology is widely known and available to other OEMs. Personally I find the 40 kWh Leaf more appealing
for my needs, and without the negatives of the M3 I've expressed on MNL.

My key objections are with Tesla's management and marketing of its products. Why the need for the "smoke & mirrors" approach
when presenting and discussing Tesla's near term guidance? Frequent full sales and financial disclosures will most likely result in
less stock volatility in the long run, and less short selling. There's no need for Elon's typical hyperbolic presentations which denote,
as an example, that FSD (full self driving) will be available by late 2020 or sooner;

https://www.theverge.com/2019/4/22/18510828/tesla-elon-musk-autonomy-day-investor-comments-self-driving-cars-predictions

And then making comments such as this;
It’s financially insane to buy anything other than a Tesla.
Or this;
Tesla unveiled a new microchip that Musk said was being included in every new Tesla produced today.
He called “the best chip in the world… objectively.”
There're more than enough very good word-of-mouth data on Tesla products, without the need for such comments.

The financial data I've used in presenting my perspective on Tesla are publicly available from Tesla's P&L statements. The calculations
used are very simple Accounting 101 theory that most can derive from what has been posted. It's unfortunate that some disapprove
of viewing Tesla's financial and market position analytically. One always has the option to ignore my posts or to refute the
calculations using the same publicly available financial data.

And yet the shorts who relied on that accounting 101 drew conclusions that were complete opposites of q3 and q4. It's one thing to understand the p&l, it's something else to draw the wrong conclusions and then pontificate on those conclusions and not the p&l itself. That's why we'll never agree.

As for Elon musk's hyperbole, that's usually taken out of context. As an engineer, he tries to be precise, but that's almost impossible when he's speculating. People read his answers one way without the context of the question, and attribute conclusions that he didn't intend. At the same time, these are predictions/plans that are forced to go through the ringers of reality. Tesla has demonstrated that they complete their projects, just not on time. As a long, I've long discounted his timeline projections as optimism, but pay very close attention to what tech they've implented and how they do so - gf3, enhanced AP, "feature complete" FSD - these are huge steps ahead of the competition.

"Feature complete" FSD is the perfect example of the misrepresentations that's prevalent about Musk. When he provided his timeline expectation (interview prior to the ark invest one), he had actually also explained what he meant by it, but many of the news outlets cropped it to mean that FSD would be ready by end of year, which is NOT what he meant. But that claim has been circulated too extensively to counter. By the time of the ark invest interview, when he repeated his explanation of "feature complete", everyone claimed that he walked back his projections, when that wasn't true, because of poor writing/editing.

I get that the above makes me sound like an apologist, but I've read through enough BS to not trust mass media, but to try to get source material at all times. I also don't see a bed of roses. As webb14leaf said, Tesla might fail, but not with as much certainty as you've proclaimed.
 
Oils4AsphaultOnly said:
As for Elon musk's hyperbole, that's usually taken out of context. As an engineer, he tries to be precise, but that's almost impossible when he's speculating.
Please, check your sources. Elon Musk does not hold any Engineering Degree whatsoever. He holds undergraduate degree in economics and stayed for a second bachelor's degree in physics and that is about it. Nobody could take anything out of context when he speaks as the whole thing is out of context of engineering, lol
 
Leaf15 said:
Oils4AsphaultOnly said:
As for Elon musk's hyperbole, that's usually taken out of context. As an engineer, he tries to be precise, but that's almost impossible when he's speculating.
Please, check your sources. Elon Musk does not hold any Engineering Degree whatsoever. He holds undergraduate degree in economics and stayed for a second bachelor's degree in physics and that is about it. Nobody could take anything out of context when he speaks as the whole thing is out of context of engineering, lol

Wow. This is the best you've got? So, because someone graduates with an econ and physics degree, they can't be an engineer, despite applying scientific laws towards the development of solutions to problem?

By that same token, because I _only_ hold an engineering degree, I should know jack s**t about how to read a 10Q, form 4, or 8K? What a rigid world you must live in.

Edit: The pendants will point out that the beef is with the [engineering] title and not the capabilities. In my case, regardless of how much accounting I learned and applied, I still would not be called an accountant. Quibbling about that difference, although correct, isn't the point.
 
FWIW, from that notoriously anti-Tesla website IEVS:
Are Tesla Model 3 Orders Declining In Germany?
https://insideevs.com/news/347837/tesla-model-3-orders-germany/

A lower number of applications for subsidies for the Tesla Model 3 suggests a declining number of orders.

The number of applications for a government subsidy by consumers ordering the Tesla Model 3 in Germany amounted to 3,292 during the first four months of this year.

However, according to the monthly data, the number of applications are decreasing every month:

Jan: 911
Feb: 835
Mar: 811
Apr: 735
Total: 3,292
I'm sure those on each side of the argument will find the numbers support their opinions.

Count me as one more who sees no legitimate reason whatsoever for banning lorenfb. Prohibiting someone from expressing unpopular opinions should never be done. Granted, I've long found most of loren's posts to be repetitive, one-sided and often completely over-the-top, but as cwerdna noted, anyone who finds them devoid of value should just put him on their foe's list. There are others who've repeatedly engaged in behavior that violates the terms of service (AFAICS, loren has not), yet they're still here.
 
Well then... Let's not let the negative derail what should be a positive thread. Those who do not own the Tesla product, the negative they say, should carry no weight whatsoever.

Tesla is a great brand. Some, including the stubborn, jealous, shorts, competitors etc, are going to hate but it is hard not to push back on their nonsense. It can get tiresome to continue, over and over, to have to correct exaggerated, misleading, or outright false information.

People who own or want to own a Tesla are going to migrate to this thread. Because the cars have a high owner satisfaction you will see that owners are generally happy. There is that vocal 8% of owners that are not. So, naysayers will try to leverage that 8% and spin it to suit their narrative.

If we are on this forum, we most likely have owned or still own a Leaf. What's better than dual brand owners to offer advice or talk about the products? You would think that those are exactly the people that should be listened to...
 
Back
Top