2019 Leaf battery overheating

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DaveinOlyWA said:
cwerdna said:
Out of curiosity, is this a 40 kWh car or a 62 kWh Leaf Plus?

Many other EVs have active thermal management... Bolt does but its DC FCing isn't that fast (from what I hear). In the case of https://electricrevs.com/2018/07/17/watch-a-bolt-ev-at-a-chargepoint-express-250-charge-at-up-to-55-kw/, it may start slowing down after 55% SoC. And, I hear it's quite slow if the battery's cold, until it warms up enough.
Click to expand...

In a race with the Bolt, 30 kwh LEAF and 40 kwh LEAF, who would win?

Winner; 30 kwh LEAF simply because of its ability to charge at full speed to 80% SOC. Test based on 5 mins plus charge time for each QC stop. There were parameters for trip length with Bolt and 40 having advantage in shorter distances due to higher range which was GREATLY mitigated if all cars started race at 50% SOC.

FYI; The 30 wins barely if the race is long enough BUT the 40 loses badly in anything over 300 miles or so.

But the main advantage of having a bigger pack is simply more charging options convenient to personal needs (which often do not follow a schedule) and the ability to charge the lower 2/3rds of the pack (something Bolt excels) which helps to slow temperature rise.
Click to expand...
You think so?

With a sufficiently powerful DC FC. I think the Bolt would win if you only started charging the Bolt when nearly empty and cut it off at when it starts throttling down or starts becoming slower than that 30 kWh Leaf. In https://electricrevs.com/2018/07/17/watch-a-bolt-ev-at-a-chargepoint-express-250-charge-at-up-to-55-kw/, during his testing, it dropped below 54 kW charging rate once he passed 54% SoC. Was full power up until that point.

Also, if you started with a full charge on each, the Bolt would go about 2x as far as the 30 kWh Leaf on the initial charge. And, if you did multiple DC FCs in a day, I bet that 30 kWh battery would overheat and throttling might begin sooner whereas Bolt has battery thermal management.

edit: In Jeff's test, from about 54% to about 70%, he was maintaining 38+ kW charging rate. Then it sharply dropped off to about 23 to 24-ish kW.
 
cwerdna said:
DaveinOlyWA said:
cwerdna said:
Out of curiosity, is this a 40 kWh car or a 62 kWh Leaf Plus?

Many other EVs have active thermal management... Bolt does but its DC FCing isn't that fast (from what I hear). In the case of https://electricrevs.com/2018/07/17/watch-a-bolt-ev-at-a-chargepoint-express-250-charge-at-up-to-55-kw/, it may start slowing down after 55% SoC. And, I hear it's quite slow if the battery's cold, until it warms up enough.
Click to expand...

In a race with the Bolt, 30 kwh LEAF and 40 kwh LEAF, who would win?

Winner; 30 kwh LEAF simply because of its ability to charge at full speed to 80% SOC. Test based on 5 mins plus charge time for each QC stop. There were parameters for trip length with Bolt and 40 having advantage in shorter distances due to higher range which was GREATLY mitigated if all cars started race at 50% SOC.

FYI; The 30 wins barely if the race is long enough BUT the 40 loses badly in anything over 300 miles or so.

But the main advantage of having a bigger pack is simply more charging options convenient to personal needs (which often do not follow a schedule) and the ability to charge the lower 2/3rds of the pack (something Bolt excels) which helps to slow temperature rise.
Click to expand...
You think so?

With a sufficiently powerful DC FC. I think the Bolt would win if you only started charging the Bolt when nearly empty and cut it off at when it starts throttling down or starts becoming slower than that 30 kWh Leaf. In https://electricrevs.com/2018/07/17/watch-a-bolt-ev-at-a-chargepoint-express-250-charge-at-up-to-55-kw/, during his testing, it dropped below 54 kW charging rate once he passed 54% SoC. Was full power up until that point.

Also, if you started with a full charge on each, the Bolt would go about 2x as far as the 30 kWh Leaf on the initial charge. And, if you did multiple DC FCs in a day, I bet that 30 kWh battery would overheat and throttling might begin sooner whereas Bolt has battery thermal management.
Click to expand...

The Bolt would easily win over 300 miles, at least in part due to its' higher overall efficiency. It would even narrowly beat the Leaf Plus, though maybe not if there was a 100kW charger available.
 
cwerdna said:
DaveinOlyWA said:
cwerdna said:
Out of curiosity, is this a 40 kWh car or a 62 kWh Leaf Plus?

Many other EVs have active thermal management... Bolt does but its DC FCing isn't that fast (from what I hear). In the case of https://electricrevs.com/2018/07/17/watch-a-bolt-ev-at-a-chargepoint-express-250-charge-at-up-to-55-kw/, it may start slowing down after 55% SoC. And, I hear it's quite slow if the battery's cold, until it warms up enough.
Click to expand...

In a race with the Bolt, 30 kwh LEAF and 40 kwh LEAF, who would win?

Winner; 30 kwh LEAF simply because of its ability to charge at full speed to 80% SOC. Test based on 5 mins plus charge time for each QC stop. There were parameters for trip length with Bolt and 40 having advantage in shorter distances due to higher range which was GREATLY mitigated if all cars started race at 50% SOC.

FYI; The 30 wins barely if the race is long enough BUT the 40 loses badly in anything over 300 miles or so.

But the main advantage of having a bigger pack is simply more charging options convenient to personal needs (which often do not follow a schedule) and the ability to charge the lower 2/3rds of the pack (something Bolt excels) which helps to slow temperature rise.
Click to expand...
You think so?

With a sufficiently powerful DC FC. I think the Bolt would win if you only started charging the Bolt when nearly empty and cut it off at when it starts throttling down or starts becoming slower than that 30 kWh Leaf. In https://electricrevs.com/2018/07/17/watch-a-bolt-ev-at-a-chargepoint-express-250-charge-at-up-to-55-kw/, during his testing, it dropped below 54 kW charging rate once he passed 54% SoC. Was full power up until that point.

Also, if you started with a full charge on each, the Bolt would go about 2x as far as the 30 kWh Leaf on the initial charge. And, if you did multiple DC FCs in a day, I bet that 30 kWh battery would overheat and throttling might begin sooner whereas Bolt has battery thermal management.

edit: In Jeff's test, from about 54% to about 70%, he was maintaining 38+ kW charging rate. Then it sharply dropped off to about 23 to 24-ish kW.
Click to expand...

In your test it could happen. I have yet to have time to look for the link but pretty sure test required charging to 80% which obviously favored the 30 kwh. As far as multiple QCs eventually slowing the charge rate? I hit 131º (11 bars I think) on mine with no slow down in sight. This was a work day so time was of the essence and other than speeding (half the trip was roads with 55 mph speed limits but a lot of up and down so I admit to hitting 75 mph coasting in neutral...) it was a 14 hour day with only two "work" stops each less than 30 mins. So it was mostly driving and charging

Under more extreme conditions like crossing the Mojave? Yeah that might do it or even mundane conditions of a 100º day which you see frequently and I read about occasionally, it could happen.

TBT; this test like any other; it had an agenda to prove and they proved it. I saw a Bolt charging at 131 amps at EVGO Tacoma and luckily I took a pix right away because, I turned to start my charge and returned just 2-3 mins later and the rate had dropped to 85 amps. I get the ramp down but that was extreme and the weather was not hot
 
Guys, although I'm new to this forum I am not new to forums in general.
Don't you think you've gone off topic?
Also, quoting the quote of the quote does nothing to the conversation. It just takes space and confuses anyone reading.
When quoting, please select the part that you refer to not the entire post.
 
SageBrush said:
The functional limitations of the LEAF are hard to convey to people not versed in the EV world.
.....
Between having a large battery, fast L2 and Tesla network access, and actually fast DC charging as a back-up plan the EV does not restrict where we travel. Any LEAF, including the 62 kWh version, would have been a non-starter even with an overnight stay somewhere.
Click to expand...

I agree that the Leaf has some (sadly non-disclosed) functional limitations but your example refers to charger availability.

I don't have an avilailability issue but an overheating one. There are enough chargers around to plan decent trips.

The problem I have with the Leaf is that it builds up heat during QC and never dissipates it once the charge has ended and the car is moving again.

So one arrives at next charging station with a warm/hot battery which causes the computer to throttle down the charge power. This limits the charges to max 3 or even 2 a day before you must stop and let the car cool down mainly overnight.

Nissan does not disclose this limitation.
 
metricus said:
SageBrush said:
The functional limitations of the LEAF are hard to convey to people not versed in the EV world.
.....
Between having a large battery, fast L2 and Tesla network access, and actually fast DC charging as a back-up plan the EV does not restrict where we travel. Any LEAF, including the 62 kWh version, would have been a non-starter even with an overnight stay somewhere.
Click to expand...

I agree that the Leaf has some (sadly non-disclosed) functional limitations but your example refers to charger availability.
Click to expand...
This is why I wrote actually fast charger.
My 'plan B' was an extra hour or two of trip time but it was OK because I would reach a 150 kW charger.
In any case, I was trying to convey that a successful trip is a dance that depends on battery size, charging network locations and functionality, and car charging functionality. Sometimes one impairment can be worked around if the others are robust. This kind of one-off planning does not fit into a sales brochure. It is just too much a ymmv.

That said, should Nissan have disclosed rapid-gate ? Obviously. But even then it is complicated. Rapid gate at what ambient temperature ? At what driving speed ? In what terrain ? With how many passengers ? I think they should provide a table that shows DCFC speeds by battery temperature but between you and me, how useful would that be to Joe consumer ? Or to you, for that matter ?

It has recently become more clear in the Tesla world that Supercharging speeds are low when the battery is cold. Call it cold-gate :)
That information was never conveyed by Tesla to potential customers. This issue does not matter to most people for a variety of reasons but I'm sure there is at least one person somewhere who finds it a big problem in their car use.
 
DaveinOlyWA said:
cwerdna said:
DaveinOlyWA said:
In a race with the Bolt, 30 kwh LEAF and 40 kwh LEAF, who would win?

Winner; 30 kwh LEAF simply because of its ability to charge at full speed to 80% SOC. Test based on 5 mins plus charge time for each QC stop. There were parameters for trip length with Bolt and 40 having advantage in shorter distances due to higher range which was GREATLY mitigated if all cars started race at 50% SOC.

FYI; The 30 wins barely if the race is long enough BUT the 40 loses badly in anything over 300 miles or so.

But the main advantage of having a bigger pack is simply more charging options convenient to personal needs (which often do not follow a schedule) and the ability to charge the lower 2/3rds of the pack (something Bolt excels) which helps to slow temperature rise.
Click to expand...
You think so?

With a sufficiently powerful DC FC. I think the Bolt would win if you only started charging the Bolt when nearly empty and cut it off at when it starts throttling down or starts becoming slower than that 30 kWh Leaf. In https://electricrevs.com/2018/07/17/watch-a-bolt-ev-at-a-chargepoint-express-250-charge-at-up-to-55-kw/, during his testing, it dropped below 54 kW charging rate once he passed 54% SoC. Was full power up until that point.

Also, if you started with a full charge on each, the Bolt would go about 2x as far as the 30 kWh Leaf on the initial charge. And, if you did multiple DC FCs in a day, I bet that 30 kWh battery would overheat and throttling might begin sooner whereas Bolt has battery thermal management.

edit: In Jeff's test, from about 54% to about 70%, he was maintaining 38+ kW charging rate. Then it sharply dropped off to about 23 to 24-ish kW.
Click to expand...

In your test it could happen. I have yet to have time to look for the link but pretty sure test required charging to 80% which obviously favored the 30 kwh. As far as multiple QCs eventually slowing the charge rate? I hit 131º (11 bars I think) on mine with no slow down in sight. This was a work day so time was of the essence and other than speeding (half the trip was roads with 55 mph speed limits but a lot of up and down so I admit to hitting 75 mph coasting in neutral...) it was a 14 hour day with only two "work" stops each less than 30 mins. So it was mostly driving and charging

Under more extreme conditions like crossing the Mojave? Yeah that might do it or even mundane conditions of a 100º day which you see frequently and I read about occasionally, it could happen.

TBT; this test like any other; it had an agenda to prove and they proved it. I saw a Bolt charging at 131 amps at EVGO Tacoma and luckily I took a pix right away because, I turned to start my charge and returned just 2-3 mins later and the rate had dropped to 85 amps. I get the ramp down but that was extreme and the weather was not hot
Click to expand...

Guess what!

I ran into someone I know who had just gotten a Bolt a few weeks earlier. He was charging faster than the earlier Bolt using the same station. He was at 58% and still pulling 98 amps. My thought was Bolt charging profile was updated but that doesn't seem to be the case (or commonly known) so have to think heat is was the culprit on earlier Bolt?

Makes me wonder how effective Bolt TMS is? How much power does it use?
 
DaveinOlyWA said:
Guess what!

I ran into someone I know who had just gotten a Bolt a few weeks earlier. He was charging faster than the earlier Bolt using the same station. He was at 58% and still pulling 98 amps. My thought was Bolt charging profile was updated but that doesn't seem to be the case (or commonly known) so have to think heat is was the culprit on earlier Bolt?
Click to expand...
Batteries vary by 5% easy, and you have not even considered the charger yet.
 
SageBrush said:
DaveinOlyWA said:
Guess what!

I ran into someone I know who had just gotten a Bolt a few weeks earlier. He was charging faster than the earlier Bolt using the same station. He was at 58% and still pulling 98 amps. My thought was Bolt charging profile was updated but that doesn't seem to be the case (or commonly known) so have to think heat is was the culprit on earlier Bolt?
Click to expand...
Batteries vary by 5% easy, and you have not even considered the charger yet.
Click to expand...

Exact same charger which still charges at same rate as before. Since I have a 30 min time limit, I check these regularly as max current varies from station to station on my LEAF so always pick the one that runs at 124 amps over the other two at 118 and 121 if it is available.

The interesting thing is the Bolt charges at "up to" 131 amps on the charger that only gives me 121 amps. So why don't I get 124?
 
DaveinOlyWA said:
SageBrush said:
DaveinOlyWA said:
Guess what!

I ran into someone I know who had just gotten a Bolt a few weeks earlier. He was charging faster than the earlier Bolt using the same station. He was at 58% and still pulling 98 amps. My thought was Bolt charging profile was updated but that doesn't seem to be the case (or commonly known) so have to think heat is was the culprit on earlier Bolt?
Click to expand...
Batteries vary by 5% easy, and you have not even considered the charger yet.
Click to expand...

Exact same charger which still charges at same rate as before.
Click to expand...
Another couple variables you forget :

Other activity, other cars
Time the car is charging
Ambient temperature

... the list is long
 
SageBrush said:
That said, should Nissan have disclosed rapid-gate ? Obviously. But even then it is complicated. Rapid gate at what ambient temperature ? At what driving speed ? In what terrain ? With how many passengers ? I think they should provide a table that shows DCFC speeds by battery temperature but between you and me, how useful would that be to Joe consumer ? Or to you, for that matter ?
Click to expand...

You are correct. My frustration is that even at mild temperatures the Leaf is throttling down the charge speed and I am sure that the average Joe consumer would be pissed about this. This did not happen to the 2016 Leaf.

Here is another test I did yesterday:

So outside temperatures were mild 25C. We took a trip to KOP Mall wich is a light ride for the 40 kWh leaf. My battery temp stayed all day smack in the middle. (i don't have the Leaf Spy adapter yet so just bear with me).

On my way back i stopped at the last plaza on the Turnpike before my exit to test the charge. I was at 26% at the time enough to get me home. Right of the bat the charge got throttled down to 32kW. No Idea why. I had done nothing weird. i drove under speed limit. The car had been parked underground at the Mall the whole time.

I have NCTC so I said what the heck lets put some free juice... So I left it for about 20 mins or so.

The temp got up 2 notches very short after initiating charge 5-10 mins. (there are 4 stages/notches between middle and first red line) So the temp was at what i would call 3/4 during charge and the power stayed at 32kW all the time. After 20 min, the charge got up to 64% so I said let's try something new:

So I stopped charging unplugged and then started a fresh new charge. Guess what? the new charge was throttled down to 22kW. Let's be clear: It was 32 when I unplugged and the charge level was way before it throttles down for being full.

So the computer saw the temp was high at 3/4 and decided to throttle me down even though, had I left it alone, it would have continued at 32.

In other words the charge power is determined at the beginning of the charge based on the temp at that moment and kept constant throughout the charge independent of temp rise. Only the charge level throttles down the power during a charge.
 
metricus said:
SageBrush said:
That said, should Nissan have disclosed rapid-gate ? Obviously. But even then it is complicated. Rapid gate at what ambient temperature ? At what driving speed ? In what terrain ? With how many passengers ? I think they should provide a table that shows DCFC speeds by battery temperature but between you and me, how useful would that be to Joe consumer ? Or to you, for that matter ?
Click to expand...

You are correct. My frustration is that even at mild temperatures the Leaf is throttling down the charge speed and I am sure that the average Joe consumer would be pissed about this. This did not happen to the 2016 Leaf.

Here is another test I did yesterday:

So outside temperatures were mild 25C. We took a trip to KOP Mall wich is a light ride for the 40 kWh leaf. My battery temp stayed all day smack in the middle. (i don't have the Leaf Spy adapter yet so just bear with me).

On my way back i stopped at the last plaza on the Turnpike before my exit to test the charge. I was at 26% at the time enough to get me home. Right of the bat the charge got throttled down to 32kW. No Idea why. I had done nothing weird. i drove under speed limit. The car had been parked underground at the Mall the whole time.

I have NCTC so I said what the heck lets put some free juice... So I left it for about 20 mins or so.

The temp got up 2 notches very short after initiating charge 5-10 mins. (there are 4 stages/notches between middle and first red line) So the temp was at what i would call 3/4 during charge and the power stayed at 32kW all the time. After 20 min, the charge got up to 64% so I said let's try something new:

So I stopped charging unplugged and then started a fresh new charge. Guess what? the new charge was throttled down to 22kW. Let's be clear: It was 32 when I unplugged and the charge level was way before it throttles down for being full.

So the computer saw the temp was high at 3/4 and decided to throttle me down even though, had I left it alone, it would have continued at 32.

In other words the charge power is determined at the beginning of the charge based on the temp at that moment and kept constant throughout the charge independent of temp rise. Only the charge level throttles down the power during a charge.
Click to expand...

Your test was "normal"... or rather "expected"

https://daveinolywa.blogspot.com/2018/12/cold-verses-leaf.html

There are a few things to look at here.

RapidGate; Reduction of max charge speed due to "starting" temperature of the batteries. This is what you saw on your 2nd charge session.


The pack's optimum starting temperature for a QC is about 86º more or less. This enables the highest knee (knee is the SOC when the current starts to drop.) Colder than that, your knee drops. Warmer than that; you don't get max current at the beginning of the charge.
 
What i forgot to say in the previous story is that the battery stayed at 3/4 all the way home. 3 hours later the temp had dropped to on notch over the middle. Only this morning its at middle again. Car is garaged if you ask.

In my view this is not a usable vehicle. It's like an ICE car would start blowing steam through the radiator's saftey valve every 200 miles and the only way to continue your trip was to let it cool overnight. This vehicle is useless to the average Joe consumer. I could live with it for the 2 year lease term but it is a major pain in the rear.

These are moments when I congratulate myself for only leasing these new tech vehicles. You REALLY never know if your car will end up with a lemon reputation and nobody wants to buy it used.
 
DaveinOlyWA said:
Your test was "normal"... or rather "expected"

https://daveinolywa.blogspot.com/2018/12/cold-verses-leaf.html

There are a few things to look at here.

RapidGate; Reduction of max charge speed due to "starting" temperature of the batteries. This is what you saw on your 2nd charge session.

The pack's optimum starting temperature for a QC is about 86º more or less. This enables the highest knee (knee is the SOC when the current starts to drop.) Colder than that, your knee drops. Warmer than that; you don't get max current at the beginning of the charge.
Click to expand...

Thank you. Very pertinent info. I really appreciate.

Which brings us to the conclusion that NISSAN is guilty of false advertisement. I smell a class action here....
 
metricus said:
In other words the charge power is determined at the beginning of the charge based on the temp at that moment and kept constant throughout the charge independent of temp rise. Only the charge level throttles down the power during a charge.
Click to expand...
Yep.

You are discovering what has been known for well over a year. TeslaBjorn published a video on his youtube channel that has a table showing the charge rate by starting temperature.

I'm not trying to berate you but I am surprised that this information is new to you. I thought rapid-gate had reached the general media and it has been discussed ad-nausea on this forum.

Addendum:
A google search for rapidgate brought up this
https://news.google.com/search?q=nissan%20rapidgate&hl=en-US&gl=US&ceid=US%3Aen
So extensively reported in the EV centric media, some mention in the general car media. I didn't see mention in the media outlets with the largest readerships.
 
Like I said in my very first post: I was a happy customer with my 2016-24kwh. I never had to Google my car.
I really thought they had worked-out the bugs.

The issue I have it's not that it is throttled but that they do it at mild temps. I would understand having such problems in Nevada but not in springtime PA.
 
metricus said:
In my view this is not a usable vehicle..
Click to expand...
Sure it is, but it is not a full replacement for a general purpose car like an ICE or a Tesla.

As a longish range commuter ( ~ 100 miles between charges when new) car it is fully functional.
We agree that in no reasonable way should it be viewed as a long distance car via DC fast charging.

Let me repeat my first response, back on page #1
The LEAF is a ( hobbled, at that) one DCFC per trip car.
If your use case is more than that you leased the wrong car.
Click to expand...

The 62 kWh model is improved in terms of rapid-gate but it STILL not a general purpose car replacement. No EV is without a proper TMS.
 
metricus said:
Like I said in my very first post: I was a happy customer with my 2016-24kwh. .
Click to expand...
The 40 kWh LEAF will be every bit as functional as the 24 kWh model, and more.

You will have to dial down your expectations to something closer to the 24 kWh model.
 
SageBrush said:
You will have to dial down your expectations to something closer to the 24 kWh model.
Click to expand...

Big disappointment in other words.

I never saw my battery temp going up during QC. I definitely did not have this problem. My only problem was not having enough range to reach chargers in certain directions. On other routes I had, and at one point was doing regular trips to Philly twice a week with repeated QC. Never saw the gauge go up, never had the speed throttled down.

To me it was just like a smartphone....
 
metricus said:
I never saw my battery temp going up during QC.
Click to expand...
That is probably just an artefact of the crappy temperature gauges Nissan displays. As you have been advised, get LeafSpy if you want to know battery temperatures. Is your battery heating up faster than expected ? I'm not sure; you would have to do better testing. For a start, you could calculate the battery resistance. Here is a tutorial: https://batteryuniversity.com/learn/article/how_to_measure_internal_resistance

The general consensus around here is that the 40 kWh LEAF battery temperature does not rise any faster than prior generations but it is slower to cool off. I think this just reflects the higher mass of the 40 kWh battery.
 

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