SageBrush
Posts: 4797
Joined: Sun Mar 06, 2011 2:28 am
Delivery Date: 13 Feb 2017
Location: NM

Re: 2019 Leaf battery overheating

Mon May 20, 2019 10:14 am

metricus wrote: Judging by ByornTesla's
TeslaBjorn :)
2013 LEAF 'S' Model with QC & rear-view camera
Bought off-lease Jan 2017 from N. California
Two years in Colorado, now in NM
03/2018: 58 Ahr, 28k miles
11/2018: 56.16 Ahr, 30k miles
-----
2018 Tesla Model 3 LR, Delivered 6/2018

SageBrush
Posts: 4797
Joined: Sun Mar 06, 2011 2:28 am
Delivery Date: 13 Feb 2017
Location: NM

Re: 2019 Leaf battery overheating

Mon May 20, 2019 10:19 am

metricus wrote: We'll see.... I'll pop in the dongle when it arrives and report back.
Per Bjorn, heat related throttling starts at 40C. I'm willing to bet good money that the middle of the LEAF temperature gauge easily straddles the throttle zone.

Get ready to be surprised. The LEAF temperature gauge is not just poor, it is misleading.
2013 LEAF 'S' Model with QC & rear-view camera
Bought off-lease Jan 2017 from N. California
Two years in Colorado, now in NM
03/2018: 58 Ahr, 28k miles
11/2018: 56.16 Ahr, 30k miles
-----
2018 Tesla Model 3 LR, Delivered 6/2018

DaveinOlyWA
Posts: 14108
Joined: Sat Apr 24, 2010 7:43 pm
Delivery Date: 16 Feb 2018
Leaf Number: 314199
Location: Olympia, WA
Contact: Website

Re: 2019 Leaf battery overheating

Tue May 21, 2019 6:27 am

lorenfb wrote:
SageBrush wrote: The 62 kWh model is improved in terms of rapid-gate
That's yet to be determined, i.e. basically no data exists compared to the 40 kWh except anecdotal - especially via LeafSpy.
There is already one report of seeing 25 KW charging speed @ 20% SOC so looks like nothing has changed.
2011 SL; 44,598 miles. 2013 S; 44,840 miles.2016 S30 deceased. 29,413 miles. 2018 S40; 15,000 miles, 478 GIDs, 37.0 kwh 109.81 Ahr , SOH 94.61, Hx 120.15
My Blog; http://daveinolywa.blogspot.com" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

SageBrush
Posts: 4797
Joined: Sun Mar 06, 2011 2:28 am
Delivery Date: 13 Feb 2017
Location: NM

Re: 2019 Leaf battery overheating

Tue May 21, 2019 8:22 am

DaveinOlyWA wrote:
lorenfb wrote:
SageBrush wrote: The 62 kWh model is improved in terms of rapid-gate
That's yet to be determined, i.e. basically no data exists compared to the 40 kWh except anecdotal - especially via LeafSpy.
There is already one report of seeing 25 KW charging speed @ 20% SOC so looks like nothing has changed.
Wrong conclusion. In the best case the cooling is fairly anemic* and only operates while the car is on and connected to a charger. It is still possible to reach heat related throttling fairly easily. So finding a condition that is throttled in no way means that a cooling method has not been added. Just because 'everything' has not changed does not mean that 'nothing' has changed. Hyperbole turns your reasoning ability to mush.

Bjorn reported that the battery stays at 40C during a 25 kW charge in the e-NV200. If my arithmetic is correct that works out to ~ 240 watts of heat dissipation presuming 50 mOhm resistance.
2013 LEAF 'S' Model with QC & rear-view camera
Bought off-lease Jan 2017 from N. California
Two years in Colorado, now in NM
03/2018: 58 Ahr, 28k miles
11/2018: 56.16 Ahr, 30k miles
-----
2018 Tesla Model 3 LR, Delivered 6/2018

lorenfb
Posts: 2248
Joined: Tue Dec 17, 2013 10:53 pm
Delivery Date: 22 Nov 2013
Leaf Number: 416635
Location: SoCal

Re: 2019 Leaf battery overheating

Tue May 21, 2019 10:15 am

SageBrush wrote: Wrong conclusion. In the best case the cooling is fairly anemic* and only operates while the car is on and connected to a charger. It is still possible to reach heat related throttling fairly easily. So finding a condition that is throttled in no way means that a cooling method has not been added. Just because 'everything' has not changed does not mean that 'nothing' has changed. Hyperbole turns your reasoning ability to mush.
Where're the data/reports that indicate that the Plus has a very basic TMS? You haven't posted any links! You're better than that.
SageBrush wrote:Bjorn reported that the battery stays at 40C during a 25 kW charge in the e-NV200. If my arithmetic is correct that works out to ~ 240 watts of heat dissipation presuming 50 mOhm resistance.
And where did the 50 mOhm assumed battery resistance come from?
#1 Leaf SL MY 9/13: 74K miles, 48 Ahrs, 5.2 miles/kWh (average), Hx=70, SOH=78, L2 - 100% > 1000, temp < 95F, (DOD) > 20 Ahrs
#2 Leaf SL MY 12/18: 4.5K miles, 115 Ahrs, 5.5 miles/kWh (average), Hx=98, SOH=99, DOD > 20%, temp < 105F

SageBrush
Posts: 4797
Joined: Sun Mar 06, 2011 2:28 am
Delivery Date: 13 Feb 2017
Location: NM

Re: 2019 Leaf battery overheating

Tue May 21, 2019 10:20 am

lorenfb wrote: And where did the 50 mOhm assumed battery resistance come from?
As usual, the ether. I took the optimistic side of your readings on an old 2013 LEAF

verry sketchy :lol:
2013 LEAF 'S' Model with QC & rear-view camera
Bought off-lease Jan 2017 from N. California
Two years in Colorado, now in NM
03/2018: 58 Ahr, 28k miles
11/2018: 56.16 Ahr, 30k miles
-----
2018 Tesla Model 3 LR, Delivered 6/2018

lorenfb
Posts: 2248
Joined: Tue Dec 17, 2013 10:53 pm
Delivery Date: 22 Nov 2013
Leaf Number: 416635
Location: SoCal

Re: 2019 Leaf battery overheating

Tue May 21, 2019 10:40 am

SageBrush wrote:
lorenfb wrote: And where did the 50 mOhm assumed battery resistance come from?
As usual, the ether. I took the optimistic side of your readings on an old 2013 LEAF
Yes, but the Plus should have 24/62 X .050 ohms (~ .020) of my 2013, given the larger battery size - more cells/pouches in parallel.
If the battery resistance hasn't really changed, e.g. marginal Plus chemistry, that can explain the added battery heat occurring
for the Plus while charging and high speed driving.
#1 Leaf SL MY 9/13: 74K miles, 48 Ahrs, 5.2 miles/kWh (average), Hx=70, SOH=78, L2 - 100% > 1000, temp < 95F, (DOD) > 20 Ahrs
#2 Leaf SL MY 12/18: 4.5K miles, 115 Ahrs, 5.5 miles/kWh (average), Hx=98, SOH=99, DOD > 20%, temp < 105F

SageBrush
Posts: 4797
Joined: Sun Mar 06, 2011 2:28 am
Delivery Date: 13 Feb 2017
Location: NM

Re: 2019 Leaf battery overheating

Tue May 21, 2019 11:08 am

lorenfb wrote:
SageBrush wrote:
lorenfb wrote: And where did the 50 mOhm assumed battery resistance come from?
As usual, the ether. I took the optimistic side of your readings on an old 2013 LEAF
Yes, but the Plus should have 24/62 X .050 ohms (~ .020) of my 2013, given the larger battery size - more cells/pouches in parallel.
If the battery resistance hasn't really changed, e.g. marginal Plus chemistry, that can explain the added battery heat occurring
for the Plus while charging and high speed driving.
I thought about that but the 40 kWh pack (that I think DaveInOly tested, IIRC) showed similar resistance results so I decided to err on the side of disappointing AESC engineering.
2013 LEAF 'S' Model with QC & rear-view camera
Bought off-lease Jan 2017 from N. California
Two years in Colorado, now in NM
03/2018: 58 Ahr, 28k miles
11/2018: 56.16 Ahr, 30k miles
-----
2018 Tesla Model 3 LR, Delivered 6/2018

lorenfb
Posts: 2248
Joined: Tue Dec 17, 2013 10:53 pm
Delivery Date: 22 Nov 2013
Leaf Number: 416635
Location: SoCal

Re: 2019 Leaf battery overheating

Tue May 21, 2019 4:01 pm

SageBrush wrote:
lorenfb wrote:
SageBrush wrote: As usual, the ether. I took the optimistic side of your readings on an old 2013 LEAF
Yes, but the Plus should have 24/62 X .050 ohms (~ .020) of my 2013, given the larger battery size - more cells/pouches in parallel.
If the battery resistance hasn't really changed, e.g. marginal Plus chemistry, that can explain the added battery heat occurring
for the Plus while charging and high speed driving.
I thought about that but the 40 kWh pack (that I think DaveInOly tested, IIRC) showed similar resistance results so I decided to err on the side of disappointing AESC engineering.
Here's what's needed (Tesla app TM-Spy during Ludicrous mode):

https://teslamotorsclub.com/tmc/attachm ... ng.112153/

Note; The current indicated is off by a factor of 10 (S/B 1300 amps) as is the power. The MS battery resistance is about 77 mohms.

from the Tesla website;

https://teslamotorsclub.com/tmc/threads ... ata.63051/

Turbo3:
Here is a screen capture of what I am working on next for TM-Spy. In Settings/Options you can place TM-Spy into a mode where it just sits and captures battery voltage and amps at a CAN bus rate of 100 per second. You can do this with the current release and see the ELM transmit LED stay on solid but the next version lets you see the data capture.

This screenshot is from an "Insane' run I was taken on last week. The amps at the peck is 1300 which is right on spec. Note how the voltage sags when you start pulling 1300 amps from it. The graph moves from right to left which is why you see -16 seconds on the left edge. You can also see the regen power and the battery voltage go above the voltage when the car was stopped (near 0 power).

#1 Leaf SL MY 9/13: 74K miles, 48 Ahrs, 5.2 miles/kWh (average), Hx=70, SOH=78, L2 - 100% > 1000, temp < 95F, (DOD) > 20 Ahrs
#2 Leaf SL MY 12/18: 4.5K miles, 115 Ahrs, 5.5 miles/kWh (average), Hx=98, SOH=99, DOD > 20%, temp < 105F

DaveinOlyWA
Posts: 14108
Joined: Sat Apr 24, 2010 7:43 pm
Delivery Date: 16 Feb 2018
Leaf Number: 314199
Location: Olympia, WA
Contact: Website

Re: 2019 Leaf battery overheating

Wed May 22, 2019 6:34 am

SageBrush wrote:
metricus wrote: We'll see.... I'll pop in the dongle when it arrives and report back.
Per Bjorn, heat related throttling starts at 40C. I'm willing to bet good money that the middle of the LEAF temperature gauge easily straddles the throttle zone.

Get ready to be surprised. The LEAF temperature gauge is not just poor, it is misleading.

LEAF Spy says throttling starts over 86º give or take a few. Below that, you will get full speed charging (~125 amps on a "50 KW" charger if you will) but a lower knee. Above that, you will get a higher knee but a lower current at the start of the charge.

This assumes your starting SOC is below the knee.
2011 SL; 44,598 miles. 2013 S; 44,840 miles.2016 S30 deceased. 29,413 miles. 2018 S40; 15,000 miles, 478 GIDs, 37.0 kwh 109.81 Ahr , SOH 94.61, Hx 120.15
My Blog; http://daveinolywa.blogspot.com" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

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