Newbie question on 62KWH battery warmer

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dborn

New member
Joined
May 22, 2019
Messages
4
Hi all,
New member from Canada here. I have a 2019 Leaf SV Plus on order, scheduled to be received in about 3 months. I am reading up as much as I can on the Leaf before I get it as it will be my first EV (but on my second non-plugin hybrid car in the last 11 years).

I downloaded a copy of the US 2019 Leaf Owner's manual and I'm going though this 600+ page document. One information from Nissan that strikes me as strange is the following differences between the battery warmers of the 40KWh and 62KWh models:

40KWh: "The Li-ion battery warmer does not operate if the available Li-ion battery charge is less than approximately 15% and the charger is not connected to the vehicle. To help prevent the Li-ion battery from freezing, do not leave the vehicle in an environment if temperatures may go below -1°F (-17°C) unless the vehicle is connected to a charger."

62KWh: "The Li-ion battery warmer does not operate if the normal charger is not connected to the vehicle. To help prevent the Li-ion battery from freezing, do not leave the vehicle in an environment if temperatures may go below -4°F (-20°C) unless the vehicle is connected to a charger."

So, if I read this right, the 40KWh battery will power the battery warmer even if the charger is not connected, as long as the battery charge isn't too low but the bigger 62KWh battery will not power the battery warmer unless the charger is connected? The 62KWh seems to be able to take colder temps (-20C battery with -24C air) than the 40KWh (-17C) but here in Montreal, Canada I am more worried about cold winter days than hot summer days. I will park the car in the heated adjoining garage for charging and to keep it warm at night but parking at the train station where there are no available chargers could require careful planning on particularly cold winter days.

Anybody know anything about this potential issue for colder climate owners or is this just a mistake in the owner's manual? I realize that probably no one has gone through cold winters yet with the 62KWh car...

Thanks for the valuable info found on this forum,
Daniel
 
Let's hope that it is a mistake. I can see the 62kwh pack taking longer to cool to near -18C, but I would NOT want to rely on that. I suggest that ePlus owners in cold climates make sure they have at least an L-1 EVSE connected at home. As for parking away from home, it usually takes a couple of frigid days for even a 24kwh pack to get cold enough to activate the battery heater. Leaving the car at a train station for a week in January might indeed be a problem. I wonder if the battery warmer comes on if the climate control is activated remotely...
 
Thanks LeftieBiker for your reply. This is key information that I was missing. I didn't realize it would take that much time for the battery to get cold enough for the battery warmer to be needed. I thought that parking the car for about 12 hours in -25C or colder weather could be a problem. (the coldest it's been here, ever, in the last 5 years is -27C. On average, less that 1 week under -20C during the winter)

So if I understand correctly, if the car is parked in my +10C garage all night (possibly being charged so being warmed up even more) and then I drive to the train station only for the day while I commute to downtown and back (so being parked in the cold between 6am and 6pm), I shouldn't have any trouble making my way back home (and back into the heated garage once more for the night).

Also, I am reading different informations that are probably making me come to incorrect conclusions but, I've read conflicting reports that the 62KWh Leaf will or will not have cold air cooling for the battery while quick charging (supplied from the climate control)... The Owner's manual also contains this information: "The automatic climate control automatically turns on when the Li-ion battery warmer uses electrical power from the Li-ion battery. This is not a malfunction. When the Li-ion battery warmer operates, the temperature inside the vehicle may be warmed up". Does that imply that the climate control IS the actual battery warmer for the 62KWh pack? That could certainly explain why it would be impossible to warm up the battery without being plugged in to the charger...?

Thanks,
Daniel
 
jlv said:
dborn said:
Nissan manual: ... and the charger is not connected to the vehicle.
Can someone tell Nissan it's called an EVSE?

Let's stop arguing term "correctness".... You can call it whatever you want, but when you plug in the car to charge, it is perfectly appropriate to call it a "Charger"..
 
dborn said:
Does that imply that the climate control IS the actual battery warmer for the 62KWh pack? That could certainly explain why it would be impossible to warm up the battery without being plugged in to the charger...?

Thanks,
Daniel
I interpret this as yes. Any constant energy draw on the battery (such as driving, running a resistance heater, etc...) will have a warming effect on the battery. Interesting they use this approach, tends to imply the dedicated battery heaters can’t adequately warm the increased battery mass. Also explains why pre-warming my previous 24KWh leaf had such a dramatic effect on winter range.
 
Perhaps also needing all the extra space they could find in the battery compartment to fit all those new cells, they could have done away with the warmers altogether and go for a more "external" source of cool or heat?
(I know that Nissan officials have denied the reports of the climate control cooling, at least that's what I remember reading on the subject).
 
dborn said:
Perhaps also needing all the extra space they could find in the battery compartment to fit all those new cells, they could have done away with the warmers altogether and go for a more "external" source of cool or heat?
(I know that Nissan officials have denied the reports of the climate control cooling, at least that's what I remember reading on the subject).
That is a possibility. Also remember that the battery heaters in the LEAF are intended to prevent the cells from freezing, and not intended to keep the battery in an optimum performance temperature range. Had I intended to use the LEAF for extended expressway driving with repeated DCFC sessions, would much prefer the set up in the Chevy Bolt. The bonus is better battery warming using the liquid loop. In my intended usage, liquid cooling & heating is likely a secondary concern, superior comfort and options of the LEAF took priority.
 
So if I understand correctly, if the car is parked in my +10C garage all night (possibly being charged so being warmed up even more) and then I drive to the train station only for the day while I commute to downtown and back (so being parked in the cold between 6am and 6pm), I shouldn't have any trouble making my way back home (and back into the heated garage once more for the night).

That is correct. If the car were kept outside at home, then over a frigid snap you would eventually have to worry about the battery temp, but in the above scenario it should be fine. As for the climate control providing the battery heating just by drawing power, I guess it's possible but it's a terribly inefficient way to do it. The battery warmers on the 24kwh Leaf use about 300 watts, while the PTC heater uses about 3000-5000 watts...
 
Just a little conclusion of my first EV story:
After considering the Leaf, Tesla Model 3 and Kona, I've finally gone with a 2019 Bolt EV LT since September and couldn't be happier. I don't regret my move at all. Excellent car with more than enough range and capabilities. Didn't like its look so much at first but it's growing on me more and more everyday.

Cheers to all LEAF owners and enthusiasts, the most important thing in the end, is driving an EV!
Daniel
 
dborn said:
Just a little conclusion of my first EV story:
After considering the Leaf, Tesla Model 3 and Kona, I've finally gone with a 2019 Bolt EV LT since September and couldn't be happier. I don't regret my move at all. Excellent car with more than enough range and capabilities. Didn't like its look so much at first but it's growing on me more and more everyday.

Cheers to all LEAF owners and enthusiasts, the most important thing in the end, is driving an EV!
Daniel

Thanks for the update. Was wondering how it was working out. Looks like the concerns would have been mute anyway. Know someone who had just gone thru a period of -20ºC days and his daily charging regimen was enough to put enough heat in the pack to keep it from freezing. It would appear the car has to sit well over 24 hours straight before battery temperature becomes an issue.
 
I just wanted to verify the statement in the first post here is true:
40KWh: "The Li-ion battery warmer does not operate if the available Li-ion battery charge is less than approximately 15% and the charger is not connected to the vehicle. To help prevent the Li-ion battery from freezing, do not leave the vehicle in an environment if temperatures may go below -1°F (-17°C) unless the vehicle is connected to a charger."

62KWh: "The Li-ion battery warmer does not operate if the normal charger is not connected to the vehicle. To help prevent the Li-ion battery from freezing, do not leave the vehicle in an environment if temperatures may go below -4°F (-20°C) unless the vehicle is connected to a charger."

I had been under the impression it would engage the heater when not plugged in but seems I may be mistaken. I went ahead and put it on l1 tonight just in case.
 
Adding to this because I find this part of the manual poorly written. Or poorly understood by me! This is from page EV-6 2022 manual.

The Li-ion battery warmer operates when
the normal charger is connected to the
vehicle, and it automatically uses electrical
power from either the external source or
from the Li-ion battery.


If the normal charger is plugged in, why would the warmer use electrical power from the Li-ion battery? Does this imply if it's plugged by the EVSE is off, then it would draw from the battery?

Additionally, I haven't seen this discussed. Is it possible if the battery warmer could be turned on to get the batteries to a more efficient operating temperature such that this energy might be less energy than what is lost driving on batteries below the temperature where efficiency is less?

The curve isn't linear so it seems that at some point warming energy would be recouped by more efficient use while driving.
 
If the normal charger is plugged in, why would the warmer use electrical power from the Li-ion battery? Does this imply if it's plugged by the EVSE is off, then it would draw from the battery?

The Leaf is designed so that all accessory power draw that isn't 12 volt comes from the high voltage pack, with the pack getting charged whenever the EVSE is plugged in and a charge timer isn't constraining it from charging. The car's accessories can't ever draw power from the EVSE.
 
LeftieBiker said:
The Leaf is designed so that all accessory power draw that isn't 12 volt comes from the high voltage pack, with the pack getting charged whenever the EVSE is plugged in and a charge timer isn't constraining it from charging. The car's accessories can't ever draw power from the EVSE.

Thanks - but it's still not clear. Is the battery warmer an accessory? If the warmer can only be turned on with the normal charger plugged in, then it would draw from the charger and not the battery. Is the statement I quoted incorrect? It will not draw from the battery?

Asked another way, if it's -10F and it's not plugged in, will the warmer be used to keep the battery from becoming too cold to use?

Edit: From the OP: The Li-ion battery warmer does not operate if the normal charger is not connected to the vehicle.
 
BillAinCT said:
LeftieBiker said:
The Leaf is designed so that all accessory power draw that isn't 12 volt comes from the high voltage pack, with the pack getting charged whenever the EVSE is plugged in and a charge timer isn't constraining it from charging. The car's accessories can't ever draw power from the EVSE.

Thanks - but it's still not clear. Is the battery warmer an accessory? If the warmer can only be turned on with the normal charger plugged in, then it would draw from the charger and not the battery. Is the statement I quoted incorrect? It will not draw from the battery?

Asked another way, if it's -10F and it's not plugged in, will the warmer be used to keep the battery from becoming too cold to use?

Edit: From the OP: The Li-ion battery warmer does not operate if the normal charger is not connected to the vehicle.
The battery warmer is built into the battery in the 40 kWh packs and NOT for the 62 kWh packs. From what we have gathered here, there is some *software* mode warmer, which I'm still in the process of trying to figure out what that means. Since 2019, no one here has posted about battery damage from freezing (from our Canadian neighbors for example), so I am going to guess something does work but it's not clear exactly what it does. Reading the manual makes it seems like it must be plugged into an an EVSE to work, but it should work without it when it comes to keeping the battery warm during very cold times.
 
If the warmer can only be turned on with the normal charger plugged in, then it would draw from the charger and not the battery.

No. You are drawing a conclusion that, while reasonable, goes beyond the available facts. The EVSE charges the main battery, and that's all it does. No Leaf has the capability to draw power from the EVSE for any other purpose. Nissan can tell the battery warmer not to run unless the car is plugged in, but that is not the same, and it apparently also is not the case, despite the poorly worded manual.
 
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