SageBrush
Posts: 4748
Joined: Sun Mar 06, 2011 2:28 am
Delivery Date: 13 Feb 2017
Location: NM

Re: Conditioning Your Battery / Keeping as Healthy as Possible

Thu May 23, 2019 6:20 am

Kieran973 wrote: When I charge to 80% SOC on the dash, Leaf Spy says I have almost 90% SOC. So if the distinction between the dash and Leaf Spy doesn't matter, then wouldn't the distinction between 80% and 90% not matter? If so, why is 80% the max recommended threshold? Why not 90%? I agree that it's a lot more convenient to just use the dash than to take a Leaf Spy reading every time I plug in, but if Leaf Spy is the real (or more real) SOC, and 80% is the max recommended threshold for daily use, and I know that the dash will report an SOC around 8-10% less than Leaf Spy, then it seems like a better daily practice would be to not go above 70-72% dash SOC.
There is not a line in the sand where SoC + 0.00001 is "bad" and SoC - 0.00001 is "good."

The key point you have to understand is that for a car being used most days, battery degradation will occur at about the same rate whether you charge up to 60, 70, 80 or 90% SoC as an isolated variable. The more important (by far) intervention is to minimize the time the battery sits at its peak charge. This is all the more true the higher the battery temperature.

Bottom line: charge after midnight for morning use. Avoid 100% charging when possible, particularly in the summer.
Avoid stuffing the car in a hot, closed garage.
During hot and sunny days, avoid parking the car on hot asphalt and letting it cook there. Walk for shade
2013 LEAF 'S' Model with QC & rear-view camera
Bought off-lease Jan 2017 from N. California
Two years in Colorado, now in NM
03/2018: 58 Ahr, 28k miles
11/2018: 56.16 Ahr, 30k miles
-----
2018 Tesla Model 3 LR, Delivered 6/2018

DaveinOlyWA
Posts: 14107
Joined: Sat Apr 24, 2010 7:43 pm
Delivery Date: 16 Feb 2018
Leaf Number: 314199
Location: Olympia, WA
Contact: Website

Re: Conditioning Your Battery / Keeping as Healthy as Possible

Fri May 24, 2019 9:19 am

Nubo wrote:
This is getting into the realm of splitting hairs, I think. I don't think anyone has quantified the difference between long-term use of 80% charging vs. 90% charging. I don't imagine it's very significant. My 2015 battery is vastly better than my 2012 battery even though the 2012 was regularly charged to 80% via the built-in setting, and the 2015 has almost exclusively charged to 100%. The babied 2012 lost a bar before 3 years, while the 2015 has all 12 bars approaching 5 years, with my "worst-case" charging habits.

Under-charging WILL help extend battery longevity, if you have the inclination to practice it. But I wouldn't obsess over it too much.
Significance must be defined by relevance. Every second a condition exists increases the significance. People will read your statement to mean that its ok when its not. The major issue with EVers is mixed messages creating confusion combined with less than ideal answers to these charge management questions.

Science has already answered the questions of significance. Our only job is weighing the ramifications of our actions verses the role the vehicle needs to play in our lives. Your "my car does fine" has no place in this discussion simply because "fine" is undefined. We all know the 2015 battery is better but does everyone know that? They only see what they understand and that is "it doesn't matter if I charge to 80% because it didn't help so Nissan removed that setting because it was a bad idea"

TBT; Our #1 flaw by a million miles is our unwillingness to "split hairs"

Half the people in the EV World don't know the difference between KW and KWH and frankly don't care.

That is pathetic.
Last edited by DaveinOlyWA on Sun May 26, 2019 6:57 pm, edited 1 time in total.
2011 SL; 44,598 miles. 2013 S; 44,840 miles.2016 S30 deceased. 29,413 miles. 2018 S40; 15,000 miles, 478 GIDs, 37.0 kwh 109.81 Ahr , SOH 94.61, Hx 120.15
My Blog; http://daveinolywa.blogspot.com" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

User avatar
Nubo
Posts: 5355
Joined: Fri May 28, 2010 11:01 am
Delivery Date: 31 Oct 2014
Location: Vallejo, CA

Re: Conditioning Your Battery / Keeping as Healthy as Possible

Sat May 25, 2019 2:58 pm

DaveinOlyWA wrote:
Nubo wrote:
This is getting into the realm of splitting hairs, I think. I don't think anyone has quantified the difference between long-term use of 80% charging vs. 90% charging. I don't imagine it's very significant. My 2015 battery is vastly better than my 2012 battery even though the 2012 was regularly charged to 80% via the built-in setting, and the 2015 has almost exclusively charged to 100%. The babied 2012 lost a bar before 3 years, while the 2015 has all 12 bars approaching 5 years, with my "worst-case" charging habits.

Under-charging WILL help extend battery longevity, if you have the inclination to practice it. But I wouldn't obsess over it too much.
Significance must be defined by relativity. Every second a condition exists increases the significance. People will read your statement to mean that its ok when its not.
Whether it’s “ok” is the thing that’s relative. I’ll give the poster credit for being able to make that determination. I only offer my opinion of the magnitude involved.
The major issue with EVers is mixed messages creating confusion combined with less than ideal answers to these charge management questions.

Science has already answered the questions of significance. Our only job is weighing the ramifications of our actions verses the role the vehicle needs to play in our lives.
Pretty much my point.
Your "my car does fine" has no place in this discussion simply because "fine" is undefined. We all know the 2015 battery is better but does everyone know that? They only see what they understand and that is "it doesn't matter if I charge to 80% because it didn't help so Nissan removed that setting because it was a bad idea"
I give the poster more credit as to what they’re capable of understanding. I’m not trying to write a complete treatise on battery management in a post. If the poster wants and needs that level of detail then obviously they need to do a lot more reading.

TBT; Our #1 flaw by a million miles is our unwillingness to "split hairs"
I determine which hairs I need to split. So do you and so can the poster. Again give them more credit. No need to infantilize them. I assume we’re all reasonably intelligent adults here
I noticed you're still working with polymers.

SageBrush
Posts: 4748
Joined: Sun Mar 06, 2011 2:28 am
Delivery Date: 13 Feb 2017
Location: NM

Re: Conditioning Your Battery / Keeping as Healthy as Possible

Sat May 25, 2019 3:10 pm

DaveinOlyWA wrote: Significance must be defined by relativity.
Is that some new-age gibberish ?

In science significance is a probability threshold set to exclude a finding due to random variation. In and of itself, nothing is said about the *magnitude* of the finding.
2013 LEAF 'S' Model with QC & rear-view camera
Bought off-lease Jan 2017 from N. California
Two years in Colorado, now in NM
03/2018: 58 Ahr, 28k miles
11/2018: 56.16 Ahr, 30k miles
-----
2018 Tesla Model 3 LR, Delivered 6/2018

gncndad
Posts: 136
Joined: Mon Feb 22, 2016 9:02 pm
Delivery Date: 23 Feb 2016
Location: Ft. Worth, TX

Re: Conditioning Your Battery / Keeping as Healthy as Possible

Sun May 26, 2019 11:41 am

Single data point here.
2015 LeafS, DFW region (May-October HOT).
Routine DAILY charging to 100%, rarely drive below 40 (GOM).
Lost my first bar a 27k miles.
Now at 31k miles, GOM routinely shows 83-85 after full charge. Recently drove 71 miles, with A/C, showed 11 miles remaining. (86f ambient)
My wife suffers from "range anxiety", refuses to limit charge to 80-90%. We plug it in daily, car sits outdoors.
No disappointment here, except...except...I'd prefer a VW eGolf...HAHA!
2015 LeafS
2013 Ford Cmax
2014 Toyota Avalon Hybrid Limited
2017 Ford Fusion Hybrid Energi

DaveinOlyWA
Posts: 14107
Joined: Sat Apr 24, 2010 7:43 pm
Delivery Date: 16 Feb 2018
Leaf Number: 314199
Location: Olympia, WA
Contact: Website

Re: Conditioning Your Battery / Keeping as Healthy as Possible

Sun May 26, 2019 6:57 pm

SageBrush wrote:
DaveinOlyWA wrote: Significance must be defined by relativity.
Is that some new-age gibberish ?

In science significance is a probability threshold set to exclude a finding due to random variation. In and of itself, nothing is said about the *magnitude* of the finding.
:lol: umm, thinking something lost in translation. I think that should have been "relevance"
2011 SL; 44,598 miles. 2013 S; 44,840 miles.2016 S30 deceased. 29,413 miles. 2018 S40; 15,000 miles, 478 GIDs, 37.0 kwh 109.81 Ahr , SOH 94.61, Hx 120.15
My Blog; http://daveinolywa.blogspot.com" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

SageBrush
Posts: 4748
Joined: Sun Mar 06, 2011 2:28 am
Delivery Date: 13 Feb 2017
Location: NM

Re: Conditioning Your Battery / Keeping as Healthy as Possible

Mon May 27, 2019 12:06 am

DaveinOlyWA wrote:
SageBrush wrote:
DaveinOlyWA wrote: Significance must be defined by relativity.
Is that some new-age gibberish ?

In science significance is a probability threshold set to exclude a finding due to random variation. In and of itself, nothing is said about the *magnitude* of the finding.
:lol: umm, thinking something lost in translation. I think that should have been "relevance"
Ahh, now I understand your intent.

Best not to redefine significance though, no more than one should redefine arithmetic.
I certainly agree that a significant finding may matter a lot to a person, not at all, or something in between.
2013 LEAF 'S' Model with QC & rear-view camera
Bought off-lease Jan 2017 from N. California
Two years in Colorado, now in NM
03/2018: 58 Ahr, 28k miles
11/2018: 56.16 Ahr, 30k miles
-----
2018 Tesla Model 3 LR, Delivered 6/2018

DaveinOlyWA
Posts: 14107
Joined: Sat Apr 24, 2010 7:43 pm
Delivery Date: 16 Feb 2018
Leaf Number: 314199
Location: Olympia, WA
Contact: Website

Re: Conditioning Your Battery / Keeping as Healthy as Possible

Mon May 27, 2019 6:21 am

SageBrush wrote:
DaveinOlyWA wrote:
SageBrush wrote: Is that some new-age gibberish ?

In science significance is a probability threshold set to exclude a finding due to random variation. In and of itself, nothing is said about the *magnitude* of the finding.
:lol: umm, thinking something lost in translation. I think that should have been "relevance"
Ahh, now I understand your intent.

Best not to redefine significance though, no more than one should redefine arithmetic.
I certainly agree that a significant finding may matter a lot to a person, not at all, or something in between.
Normally I would agree but the trend here and elsewhere is simply some people don't care. They know that high SOC is not good but rather have 30-40 miles on the GOM when they get home in the evening and too many base it on statements like "don't fully charge it and let it sit more than 24 hours" or some crap. But those statements are giving some the wrong impression of right and less right.

I get that the difference between letting it sit 2 hours verses 5 hours is VERY small but making these statements more clear only benefits the people who want to know what matters while the people who don't care likely wouldn't notice anyway.

I am a fan of pushing the bottom end and who knows? That might be worse although I think its marginally better. Now I don't come home with 7 GIDs nearly every day like I used to but I am ok with parking it at 20% overnight if no big trips or super early trips are planned the next day. I just plug in a few hours after I get up to boost into the mid ranges.
2011 SL; 44,598 miles. 2013 S; 44,840 miles.2016 S30 deceased. 29,413 miles. 2018 S40; 15,000 miles, 478 GIDs, 37.0 kwh 109.81 Ahr , SOH 94.61, Hx 120.15
My Blog; http://daveinolywa.blogspot.com" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

SageBrush
Posts: 4748
Joined: Sun Mar 06, 2011 2:28 am
Delivery Date: 13 Feb 2017
Location: NM

Re: Conditioning Your Battery / Keeping as Healthy as Possible

Mon May 27, 2019 7:47 am

DaveinOlyWA wrote:
SageBrush wrote:
DaveinOlyWA wrote:
:lol: umm, thinking something lost in translation. I think that should have been "relevance"
Ahh, now I understand your intent.

Best not to redefine significance though, no more than one should redefine arithmetic.
I certainly agree that a significant finding may matter a lot to a person, not at all, or something in between.
Normally I would agree but the trend here and elsewhere is simply some people don't care.
The ONLY point I wish to make here is that a statistical declaration of a significant finding says NOTHING about the magnitude of the finding. It could mean that your recommendations extend battery life by one minute or a decade.

Perhaps an example would help:
You could e.g. declare that in your experience of 4 cars, reducing the time that a LEAF sits at 100F or higher extends the battery life by 2 years compared to some presumed outcome. You might say further (if true) that stat analysis of your group of 4 cars is that your findings are significant; that is, unlikely to be due to vagaries of random sampling.

Or perhaps the extended battery life worked out to 2 seconds. The significance analysis remains the same.

Clear ? Significance says NOTHING about the magnitude of the effect.
2013 LEAF 'S' Model with QC & rear-view camera
Bought off-lease Jan 2017 from N. California
Two years in Colorado, now in NM
03/2018: 58 Ahr, 28k miles
11/2018: 56.16 Ahr, 30k miles
-----
2018 Tesla Model 3 LR, Delivered 6/2018

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