GRA
Posts: 11213
Joined: Mon Sep 19, 2011 1:49 pm
Location: East side of San Francisco Bay

Re: Electrify America Network

Tue Jun 04, 2019 4:51 pm

SageBrush wrote:
Astros wrote: One thing I noticed in the fine print is that the price does not depend on your actual charge rate. It explicitly says that if the car slows down the charge rate so that you would be in a lower price tier, you will still be charged the higher rate. Of course, chademo is limited to 50kW no matter what, so that won't affect Leaf drivers. Except, the chademo plug seems to always be paired with a low power CCS plug, so I wonder if that will encourage more drivers to use that charger even when they could use a CCS/CCS one.
I'm not positive, but I understood the charging scheme differently. I think you are tiered by the charge rate at the beginning of the session (or close to it.) The general idea is to presumably match your tier to the highest load during the session. This makes more than a little sense since the majority of the electricity costs are demand charges. It would have been fairer to use the peak load from the highest 15 minutes of a charging session since that is what the utility does but it may have been too much for their software .... or they are just screwing you .
If the price doesn't drop as the rate slows down, that will seriously screw Kona/Niro/Soul owners, as their peak rate is 77-78 kW, just above the 75kW cut but about as far below 150kW as it's possible to be. At Gallup, 75kW and below is $0.21/min, while 76 <= 150 kW is $0.58/min! As noted in the Niro topic by Tom Moloughney, the car charges at max rate until about 35% SoC after which it rapidly drops to 39kW, so anyone trying to get the lower rate would need to keep the battery above the 35% level, seriously limiting the useful range. This will have to be changed, through battery buffering or what have you.
Guy [I have lots of experience designing/selling off-grid AE systems, some using EVs but don't own one. Local trips are by foot, bike and/or rapid transit].

The 'best' is the enemy of 'good enough'. Copper shot, not Silver bullets.

Astros
Posts: 132
Joined: Wed Oct 11, 2017 11:21 am
Delivery Date: 28 Apr 2018
Leaf Number: 310136
Location: Seattle, WA

Re: Electrify America Network

Tue Jun 04, 2019 4:59 pm

SageBrush wrote:I'm not positive, but I understood the charging scheme differently. I think you are tiered by the charge rate at the beginning of the session (or close to it.) The general idea is to presumably match your tier to the highest load during the session. This makes more than a little sense since the majority of the electricity costs are demand charges. It would have been fairer to use the peak load from the highest 15 minutes of a charging session since that is what the utility does but it may have been too much for their software .... or they are just screwing you .
I haven't tested this at one of their stations, but the legal stuff you have to agree to in order to use the app is pretty clear that they will charge you the full rate even if your car later limits the rate to a lower tier. Also, if you open up the app and click on a working station, look at the pricing. It lists e.g. "1-125kW $0.69/min", so they are explicit that you might not get the full 125kW. Hopefully you get to choose what tier you want to pay for.
2019 Deep Blue SL Plus

GRA
Posts: 11213
Joined: Mon Sep 19, 2011 1:49 pm
Location: East side of San Francisco Bay

Re: Electrify America Network

Tue Jun 04, 2019 5:04 pm

Astros wrote:
SageBrush wrote:I'm not positive, but I understood the charging scheme differently. I think you are tiered by the charge rate at the beginning of the session (or close to it.) The general idea is to presumably match your tier to the highest load during the session. This makes more than a little sense since the majority of the electricity costs are demand charges. It would have been fairer to use the peak load from the highest 15 minutes of a charging session since that is what the utility does but it may have been too much for their software .... or they are just screwing you .
I haven't tested this at one of their stations, but the legal stuff you have to agree to in order to use the app is pretty clear that they will charge you the full rate even if your car later limits the rate to a lower tier. Also, if you open up the app and click on a working station, look at the pricing. It lists e.g. "1-125kW $0.69/min", so they are explicit that you might not get the full 125kW. Hopefully you get to choose what tier you want to pay for.
Being able to choose your tier and have the charger not provide more than that would solve the problem I mentioned above. in the case of the Korean cars, no one will care about losing 2-3 kW of max. rate for a few minutes given the price difference between the tiers.
Guy [I have lots of experience designing/selling off-grid AE systems, some using EVs but don't own one. Local trips are by foot, bike and/or rapid transit].

The 'best' is the enemy of 'good enough'. Copper shot, not Silver bullets.

GRA
Posts: 11213
Joined: Mon Sep 19, 2011 1:49 pm
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Re: Electrify America Network

Tue Jun 04, 2019 5:56 pm

Here's the official announcement via GCC:
Electrify America launches first mobile app, new membership options and new power-level pricing structure
https://www.greencarcongress.com/2019/0 ... 04-ea.html
. . . How Electrify America determines an EV’s power level and its associated pricing:
  • Car communicates its charging capability: If your EV tells the charger that it can accept a maximum charging power of 95kW, for example, it is placed in the 1-125kW power level.

    Per-minute price is locked in for the session: The power level set according to your EV at the start of your charging session determines the per-minute price, which stays the same throughout the session. You’ll be shown the power level in which your car is placed at the start of the session. Your power level pricing will be shown on the charger screen or on the Electrify America app.

    Session begins, but charging speed may vary: The charging speed may fluctuate throughout your session based on the vehicle’s requested power level depending on: the vehicle model; external temperature; battery age; and the battery’s state of charge when the charging session begins.
So, if EA doesn't allow you to reduce the max. charge rate, then Hyundai/Kia need to reduce it to 75 kW, or allow the owner to do so.
Guy [I have lots of experience designing/selling off-grid AE systems, some using EVs but don't own one. Local trips are by foot, bike and/or rapid transit].

The 'best' is the enemy of 'good enough'. Copper shot, not Silver bullets.

DougWantsALeaf
Posts: 1075
Joined: Fri May 10, 2013 8:21 pm
Delivery Date: 18 May 2013
Leaf Number: 407811
Location: Chicago North Side

Re: Electrify America Network

Tue Jun 04, 2019 6:55 pm

Pricing is purposefully set. Gen 1 cars get the lower rate, gen 2 pay double.

The 50Kw limit on the Chademo with an E+ is the sweet spot as running at a full 50 for long trips is generally good enough for most travelers.
2019 SV Plus Silver
2013 Leaf SV
100 Mile Club Member (Number 87)
Max distance on 13 Leaf: 120 miles
Max distance on 19 Leaf: 242 Highway 4.5 miles/kWh (4.9 KWh remaining)

DaveinOlyWA
Posts: 14247
Joined: Sat Apr 24, 2010 7:43 pm
Delivery Date: 16 Nov 2019
Leaf Number: 319862
Location: Olympia, WA
Contact: Website

Re: Electrify America Network

Wed Jun 05, 2019 6:29 am

Astros wrote:I downloaded the app last night, and it looks like it has a lot of nice features. I like that it tells you when the last charge using each charger was, since that should give an indication of whether it's working before you get there, even if people aren't checking in with plugshare. I also like that it will notify you once the charger is available, if you ask for that. And, the idle fee should encourage people to actually unplug and move when they are done.

One thing I noticed in the fine print is that the price does not depend on your actual charge rate. It explicitly says that if the car slows down the charge rate so that you would be in a lower price tier, you will still be charged the higher rate. Of course, chademo is limited to 50kW no matter what, so that won't affect Leaf drivers. Except, the chademo plug seems to always be paired with a low power CCS plug, so I wonder if that will encourage more drivers to use that charger even when they could use a CCS/CCS one.
"Some" LEAFs are limited to 50 KW (125 amps) while others are not. Have read (and seen LEAF Spy screen) 30 kwh LEAF charging over 135 amps.

So get a very new one or an older one if you want more charge for less money. The rest of us are screwed.
2011 SL; 44,598 mi, 87% SOH. 2013 S; 44,840 mi, 91% SOH. 2016 S30; 29,413 mi, 99% SOH. 2018 S; 25,185 mi, SOH 92.23%. 2019 S Plus; 412 mi, 99.72% SOH
My Blog; http://daveinolywa.blogspot.com" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

GRA
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Re: Electrify America Network

Wed Jun 05, 2019 5:42 pm

I sent the following email to Kia Cust. Serv. re EA's new pricing policy. I recommend others send their own message to any manufacturer as well as EA if the vehicle you're interested in will get screwed by the policy:
Electrify America has just begun a new pricing policy for their quick chargers, fixed at the max. charge rate the car tells the charger it can handle, AT ANY POINT during a charge. For example, at Gallup, NM, the rate is $0.21/minute if your max. rate is up to 75 kW, but jumps to $0.58/minute if the max. rate is over 75 and up to 125kW, and $0.89/minute if the car can take a max. rate up to 350 kW. As the max. rate for the Niro and 2020 Soul BEVs is about 77-78 kW per customer reports, ramping down rapidly @ approx. 35% SoC, this makes using these chargers uneconomic; who wants to pay $0.58/min. instead of $0.21/min. for the entire charge, for an additional 2-3kW charging speed for a few minutes? Unless EA (Volkswagen) can be compelled to change the rate based on the actual charge rate at any given time, in order to use these chargers at the lower price you need to allow the max. rate the car will accept to be settable by the owner, i.e. 75kW (or less, to allow for EA changing the max. rate schedules in the future). Not using EA QCs on road trips is not an option for many, as they have the only (non-Tesla) network that allows long road trips.
Guy [I have lots of experience designing/selling off-grid AE systems, some using EVs but don't own one. Local trips are by foot, bike and/or rapid transit].

The 'best' is the enemy of 'good enough'. Copper shot, not Silver bullets.

GetOffYourGas
Posts: 2052
Joined: Tue Dec 20, 2011 6:56 pm
Delivery Date: 09 Mar 2012
Location: Syracuse, NY

Re: Electrify America Network

Thu Jun 06, 2019 3:07 am

You are asking a Korean company to update their product based on a German company’s pricing in the United States. Good luck with that.
~Brian

EV Fleet:
2011 Torqeedo Travel 1003 electric outboard on a 22' sailboat
2012 Leaf SV (traded for Bolt)
2015 C-Max Energi (302A package)
2017 Bolt Premier

GRA
Posts: 11213
Joined: Mon Sep 19, 2011 1:49 pm
Location: East side of San Francisco Bay

Re: Electrify America Network

Thu Jun 06, 2019 4:59 pm

GetOffYourGas wrote:You are asking a Korean company to update their product based on a German company’s pricing in the United States. Good luck with that.
I'm asking a Korean company to consider the likely effect on their sales if the only U.S. national (non-Tesla) charging network has a pricing structure that disadvantages their cars compared to those from other manufacturers, and to take action accordingly. Naturally, I'm also going to write to EA as well as CARB. The only way to get this changed is for people to speak up, or else vote with their wallets, and the latter eliminates some otherwise desirable options. I don't operate under the naive belief that bringing this change about will be easy, but the more options available, the better the chance we have.

In the meantime, as I read EA's announcement it strikes me that the work-around for now is to charge at the higher (price) rate until the charge rate drops below 75kW, then stop and restart charging again. Assuming that the car signals the new lower maximum rate and not its max. rate ever, you can at least limit the amount of time spent paying $0.58 instead of $0.21/min, at the cost of an additional $1 connection fee (if you haven't opted for the $4/month base fee), which you recoup after less than 3 minutes at the new rate. Maybe someone can give this a shot and let us know if it works.
Last edited by GRA on Thu Jun 06, 2019 5:11 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Guy [I have lots of experience designing/selling off-grid AE systems, some using EVs but don't own one. Local trips are by foot, bike and/or rapid transit].

The 'best' is the enemy of 'good enough'. Copper shot, not Silver bullets.

GRA
Posts: 11213
Joined: Mon Sep 19, 2011 1:49 pm
Location: East side of San Francisco Bay

Re: Electrify America Network

Thu Jun 06, 2019 5:09 pm

The eastbound site in West Unity, OH (I-80/90 just east of Jct. U.S 127) is open, #2 for the month and #201 total.

This shortens the leg between Genoa and Mishawaka from an impractical 155 miles to two legs of 56 and 99 miles. The westbound site should follow shortly.
Guy [I have lots of experience designing/selling off-grid AE systems, some using EVs but don't own one. Local trips are by foot, bike and/or rapid transit].

The 'best' is the enemy of 'good enough'. Copper shot, not Silver bullets.

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