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webb14leafs said:
lorenfb said:
Another perspective of Tesla's "profitability":

https://davidstockmanscontracorner.com/the-green-raw-deal-at-work-teslas-2-billion-zev-credit-haul-from-gm-fiat-is-the-only-reason-its-solvent/
Click to expand...

What's your point? Again, this is all about perspective. You can read this as 1 - "The only reason Tesla has avoided bankruptcy is by selling tax credits," or 2 - "Wow, Tesla makes a lot of money selling tax credits! This should be a significant and growing revenue source for decades."
Click to expand...

As some wish, a future Amazon/Apple/Google/Microsoft/Facebook growth company, right? Laughable!
 
webb14leafs said:
Last I read was that Tesla had 10 months of cash left at their Q1 burn rate.
...
Noone has a crystal ball, and pretending one does just makes one sound like an idiot.
Click to expand...
Here's a fun party game.

Google "Tesla run out of cash". On the results page click "Tools" and then select "Any date range". Now plug in any year for the start and the next year for the end (e.g., start 2014 and end 2015). You fine lots of articles written over the last decade that will talk about "Tesla has N months of cash left at their blah burn rate".

Will they go bankrupt? I don't know. As if oft pointed out, automotive manufacturing is a capital intensive business. Will its survive long term? I don't know.

Interesting fact of the day: GM went bankrupt exactly 10 years ago this week.
 
lorenfb said:
webb14leafs said:
lorenfb said:
Another perspective of Tesla's "profitability":

https://davidstockmanscontracorner.com/the-green-raw-deal-at-work-teslas-2-billion-zev-credit-haul-from-gm-fiat-is-the-only-reason-its-solvent/
Click to expand...

What's your point? Again, this is all about perspective. You can read this as 1 - "The only reason Tesla has avoided bankruptcy is by selling tax credits," or 2 - "Wow, Tesla makes a lot of money selling tax credits! This should be a significant and growing revenue source for decades."
Click to expand...

As some wish, a future Amazon/Apple/Google/Microsoft/Facebook growth company, right? Laughable!
Click to expand...

What are you talking about??????????
 
lorenfb said:
https://forums.tesla.com/forum/forums/did-tesla-mission-change-fiat-connection
Click to expand...

Fiat is paying a heavy price for not having any EVs. At some point they may finally figure it out and start to make a desirable EV. That's the whole goal of ZEV credits. The fact that Tesla benefits from Fiat's errors further's Tesla's ability to offer affordable cars. Without ZEV income, they would have to raise the price of the cars, which would reduce the number of owners that can afford it. Seems like a no brainer to me. How someone can twist this into some kind of negative is even stranger.
Click to expand...
 
webb14leafs said:
lorenfb said:
webb14leafs said:
What's your point? Again, this is all about perspective. You can read this as 1 - "The only reason Tesla has avoided bankruptcy is by selling tax credits," or 2 - "Wow, Tesla makes a lot of money selling tax credits! This should be a significant and growing revenue source for decades."
Click to expand...

As some wish, a future Amazon/Apple/Google/Microsoft/Facebook growth company, right? Laughable!
Click to expand...

What are you talking about??????????
Click to expand...

To help you understand:

Many consider Tesla a growth startup company as were the above five, and can be assumed to have the same significant growth future.
Doesn't appear to be the case as time progresses, does it?
 
lorenfb said:
webb14leafs said:
lorenfb said:
As some wish, a future Amazon/Apple/Google/Microsoft/Facebook growth company, right? Laughable!
Click to expand...

What are you talking about??????????
Click to expand...

To help you understand:

Many consider Tesla a growth startup company as were the above five, and can be assumed to have the same significant growth future.
Doesn't appear to be the case as time progresses, does it?
Click to expand...

I think the question is whether Tesla will be a successful/viable car company, not if they will have a trillion dollar valuation.
 
Looks like the negativity got a little ahead of itself.

https://www.cnbc.com/2019/06/05/tesla-outpacing-ev-competitors-as-may-demand-surprises-analysts.html

Tesla increased total U.S. sales in the month of May by 73% compared to last year, according to data from Motor Intelligence. Meanwhile, sales climbed 39% for competing electric vehicles from Audi, BMW, Jaguar, Chevrolet and Nissan. Morgan Stanley also noted that Tesla’s estimated total U.S. sales of 11,300 vehicles in May was 2.6 times the combined total of its competitors’ EV offerings -- up from 2.1 times last year.
Click to expand...

So much for the competition, they suck, and everyone with any knowledge of EVs knows it. That's why Tesla has 3/4 of the market share and their share is growing not shrinking.
 
LTLFTcomposite said:
Looks like the negativity got a little ahead of itself.

https://www.cnbc.com/2019/06/05/tesla-outpacing-ev-competitors-as-may-demand-surprises-analysts.html

Tesla increased total U.S. sales in the month of May by 73% compared to last year, according to data from Motor Intelligence. Meanwhile, sales climbed 39% for competing electric vehicles from Audi, BMW, Jaguar, Chevrolet and Nissan. Morgan Stanley also noted that Tesla’s estimated total U.S. sales of 11,300 vehicles in May was 2.6 times the combined total of its competitors’ EV offerings -- up from 2.1 times last year.
Click to expand...

So much for the competition, they suck, and everyone with any knowledge of EVs knows it. That's why Tesla has 3/4 of the market share and their share is growing not shrinking.
Click to expand...

Consider reading the above topic on the M3 thread, i.e. a more realistic strategic marketing view.
Bottom Line: The M3 demand is down versus 2018 Q4 - the appropriate base measurement point.
 
lorenfb said:
LTLFTcomposite said:
Looks like the negativity got a little ahead of itself.

https://www.cnbc.com/2019/06/05/tesla-outpacing-ev-competitors-as-may-demand-surprises-analysts.html

Tesla increased total U.S. sales in the month of May by 73% compared to last year, according to data from Motor Intelligence. Meanwhile, sales climbed 39% for competing electric vehicles from Audi, BMW, Jaguar, Chevrolet and Nissan. Morgan Stanley also noted that Tesla’s estimated total U.S. sales of 11,300 vehicles in May was 2.6 times the combined total of its competitors’ EV offerings -- up from 2.1 times last year.
Click to expand...

So much for the competition, they suck, and everyone with any knowledge of EVs knows it. That's why Tesla has 3/4 of the market share and their share is growing not shrinking.
Click to expand...

Consider reading the above topic on the M3 thread, i.e. a more realistic strategic marketing view.
Bottom Line: The M3 demand is down versus 2018 Q4 - the appropriate base measurement point.
Click to expand...

Appropriate according to whom??? "Appropriate" is whatever leads to profitability. "Appropriate" is whatever pays the bills long enough for the company to launch new products that will have similar or higher demand than the current products.

Quarter over quarter growth matters, and shows that demand is not in a free fall. Also good to note that Tesla is STILL selling every expensive compact sedan they make - as fast as they can make them.
 
EVDRIVER said:
EatsShootsandLeafs said:
With their cash burn rate leaving them only several months of expenditures before running out of cash, if they cannot get profitable and maintain (and they can't), they will have to raise again, causing yet more stock dilution.
Click to expand...

Please show me where you got that info. Please quote the fact not a misquoted FUD statement. The Tesla regurgitated nonsense is laughable.
Click to expand...
Before I answer your post can you please clarify if you're being serious or not. Also what exactly you want me to "show", whether it's their cash burn rate or what stock dilution is.

I will remind the class that back in April or so I said essentially the same thing, one guy in this thread called me a troll, TSLA just a few weeks after that had to raise $2.X B, and their stock has been flushed down the toilet since.

I'll admit I'm also triggered any time somebody in a tesla thread uses the word FUD because I've found it to be strongly correlated with a knee-jerk overly defensive reaction from a person who is probably long in the stock, has no idea why it's going down, and is angry about something they don't understand. And this leads to this kind of a statement:

EVDRIVER said:
What you read was a quote that was altered by FUD sites that twisted his words. He never said that. Tesla's biggest issue is disinformation and short sellers, the vast majority of what you read is twisted to fit a narrative and not fact. People here still insist on spreading lies about the technical features of the cars and people take it as fact. Reminds me of some "news" organizations.
Click to expand...

It's actually sad reading comments like this with TSLA currently almost 50% off its highs. Short sellers and FUDsters are not destroying this company. Market reality and increasingly poor leadership from its CEO is.
 
Elon said the money they raised would be burned in 10 month based on XYZ. The FUD media changed it to "they will be out of money in 10 months" This is typical word smithing and headline manipulation. I constantly hear people quoting nonsense and manipulated tag lines about Tesla and then siting it is the cause of the stock dropping. If you do some deep research you may be shocked at what is really going on with Tesla and its stock. Many people that post here have no idea about the actual facts they just repeat the propaganda they hear. Then there are people like Loren that come to this forum with a primary goal to say anything to discredit everything about Tesla with made up "facts" and other nonsense. Loren still insists on technical facts about Teslas that are false yet will not ever accept a challenge to be proven wrong, just silence. I have never seen so many big interests systematically and illegally try to destroy a company, makes you wonder why. In the meantime Nissan has a CEO with an interesting issue yet it has almost no media coverage relative to the nonsense Tesla daily headlines.
 
EVDRIVER said:
that come to this forum with a primary goal to say anything to discredit everything about Tesla with made up "facts" and other nonsense.
Click to expand...

Funny. I thought for sure you were going to write:

that come to this forum with a primary goal to say anything to discredit everything about Nissan with made up "facts" and other nonsense.
Click to expand...
 
EVDRIVER said:
Elon said the money they raised would be burned in 10 month based on XYZ. The FUD media changed it to "they will be out of money in 10 months" This is typical word smithing and headline manipulation. I constantly hear people quoting nonsense and manipulated tag lines about Tesla and then siting it is the cause of the stock dropping. If you do some deep research you may be shocked at what is really going on with Tesla and its stock. Many people that post here have no idea about the actual facts they just repeat the propaganda they hear. Then there are people like Loren that come to this forum with a primary goal to say anything to discredit everything about Tesla with made up "facts" and other nonsense. Loren still insists on technical facts about Teslas that are false yet will not ever accept a challenge to be proven wrong, just silence. I have never seen so many big interests systematically and illegally try to destroy a company, makes you wonder why. In the meantime Nissan has a CEO with an interesting issue yet it has almost no media coverage relative to the nonsense Tesla daily headlines.
Click to expand...
Lots of arguments from both sides about Tesla.

Long story short: the company can't make money. Year after year says "we're almost there to being profitable" and year after year continues not to be profitable.

At some point if a company cannot make money it will dissolve. It's that simple. Tesla has been at this for over a decade. They are running out of time. If they cannot get sustainably profitable they will follow the same path as the majority of automotive companies that have been founded in this country: bankruptcy. Will it be this year or in five who knows, but this is a problem they have been unable to solve.
 
EatsShootsandLeafs said:
EVDRIVER said:
Elon said the money they raised would be burned in 10 month based on XYZ. The FUD media changed it to "they will be out of money in 10 months" This is typical word smithing and headline manipulation. I constantly hear people quoting nonsense and manipulated tag lines about Tesla and then siting it is the cause of the stock dropping. If you do some deep research you may be shocked at what is really going on with Tesla and its stock. Many people that post here have no idea about the actual facts they just repeat the propaganda they hear. Then there are people like Loren that come to this forum with a primary goal to say anything to discredit everything about Tesla with made up "facts" and other nonsense. Loren still insists on technical facts about Teslas that are false yet will not ever accept a challenge to be proven wrong, just silence. I have never seen so many big interests systematically and illegally try to destroy a company, makes you wonder why. In the meantime Nissan has a CEO with an interesting issue yet it has almost no media coverage relative to the nonsense Tesla daily headlines.
Click to expand...
Lots of arguments from both sides about Tesla.

Long story short: the company can't make money. Year after year says "we're almost there to being profitable" and year after year continues not to be profitable.

At some point if a company cannot make money it will dissolve. It's that simple. Tesla has been at this for over a decade. They are running out of time. If they cannot get sustainably profitable they will follow the same path as the majority of automotive companies that have been founded in this country: bankruptcy. Will it be this year or in five who knows, but this is a problem they have been unable to solve.
Click to expand...

No one is profitable with EVs, they took more risk and invested far more. So yes it have been a long time but that would make sense. My issue is the systematic intentional attacks on the company. Tesla is likely the most American car company today and there are many organizations very threatened by their success. There are also plenty of people that just want to spread misinformation about Tesla, a few on this thread with some type of agenda. No one cares what Nissan or other car companies are doing because they do not have a disruptive product yet or the infrastructure in place to support country wide charging yet.
 
EVDRIVER said:
No one is profitable with EVs,
Click to expand...

Nissan claims to be profitable on the LEAF. For years, not three quarters.

https://insideevs.com/news/324017/nissan-ceo-leaf-is-now-profitable-80-of-its-us-sales-come-from-4-cities/
 
WetEV said:
EVDRIVER said:
No one is profitable with EVs,
Click to expand...

Nissan claims to be profitable on the LEAF. For years, not three quarters.

https://insideevs.com/news/324017/nissan-ceo-leaf-is-now-profitable-80-of-its-us-sales-come-from-4-cities/
Click to expand...

Nissan claims quite a few things. Nissan also has been selling the same basic EV for 11 years and has a massive company to absorb costs. They have a battery that was quickly dated, they do almost no significant improvements, don't honor warranties in many cases and have an exiting service network and no charging network. I would hope they are making a profit this far out. They also were not a start up company that has bought other companies and done much more. The comparisons are pretty laughable. If Nissan had the Tesla model they would not have lasted three years tops.
 
EVDRIVER said:
Nissan also has been selling the same basic EV for 11 years and has a massive company to absorb costs. They have a battery that was quickly dated, they do almost no significant improvements, don't honor warranties in many cases and have an exiting service network and no charging network. I would hope they are making a profit this far out. They also were not a start up company that has bought other companies and done much more. The comparisons are pretty laughable. If Nissan had the Tesla model they would not have lasted three years tops.
Click to expand...

Original LEAF has a 24kWh battery. Current LEAF is 62kWh. Looks like a very significant improvement to me.

Nissan's batteries don't catch fire. Tesla's batteries do. Sure, not at the same rate as all ICE cars. Most ICE fires are in fairly old cars. What's going happen when Tesla cars and batteries get old?

Nissan uses automotive grade electronic components. So does every other car company. Other than Tesla, unfortunately for Tesla owners... Yellow lines on your display yet?

Vampire losses, repair costs, the list goes on and on. Sure, is a cool and popular car today. Tomorrow? Next year? Next decade?
 
WetEV said:
EVDRIVER said:
Nissan also has been selling the same basic EV for 11 years and has a massive company to absorb costs. They have a battery that was quickly dated, they do almost no significant improvements, don't honor warranties in many cases and have an exiting service network and no charging network. I would hope they are making a profit this far out. They also were not a start up company that has bought other companies and done much more. The comparisons are pretty laughable. If Nissan had the Tesla model they would not have lasted three years tops.
Click to expand...

Original LEAF has a 24kWh battery. Current LEAF is 62kWh. Looks like a very significant improvement to me.

Nissan's batteries don't catch fire. Tesla's batteries do. Sure, not at the same rate as all ICE cars. Most ICE fires are in fairly old cars. What's going happen when Tesla cars and batteries get old?

Nissan uses automotive grade electronic components. So does every other car company. Other than Tesla, unfortunately for Tesla owners... Yellow lines on your display yet?

Vampire losses, repair costs, the list goes on and on. Sure, is a cool and popular car today. Tomorrow? Next year? Next decade?
Click to expand...


Increasing the pack size after long delays with the same air cooled pack is not a significant improvement it's a stop-gap. That significant improvement did not make for a significant increase in sales. Is the Nissan pack automotive grade? Yes Tesla uses automotive grade parts. I don't have a screen issue or know anyone that does. I have met every single Nissan LEAF engineer form Japan, believe me Nissan is not a progressive cutting edge company. The LEAF was a good EV when it first came out but it was quickly dated but they are great short-distance bargain EVs if you can deal with the degradation and charging restrictions. Comparing Tesla and Nissan is silly they are miles apart in every imaginable way.
 
EVDRIVER said:
Increasing the pack size after long delays with the same air cooled pack is not a significant improvement it's a stop-gap. That significant improvement did not make for a significant increase in sales. Is the Nissan pack automotive grade? Yes Tesla uses automotive grade parts. I don't have a screen issue or know anyone that does.
Click to expand...
My 2013 model S 85 kwh does not have any issues with the screen. Before purchasing I asked what repairs had been done during the first 65,000 miles. There were a few issues with door handles that got fixed, but nothing about the screen or MCU. I still have 2 more years warranty on the battery and drive unit. While I could have some expensive repairs down the road, I saved about $10,000 over the typical price for most used Teslas so I will probably still be ahead. It isn't just that the model S is fun to drive (it is, of course). It has replaced virtually all of my driving, something the Leaf could never do.
 

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