You should have bought a diesel car if you wanted to save the world

As I read a lot of mining news and mining industry stuff this is no surprise to me.

https://www.zerohedge.com/news/2019-04-21/new-study-shocks-electric-cars-considerably-worse-climate-diesel-cars

I bought an electric car to save money and it excels at that.

Garbage article

I know everything you don't agree with is automatically garbage.
Nothing new there.

Right Babyface Braunschweiger.

Briefly, to rebut the crap arguments: the "researchers" assume a 10 year life for a Tesla pack with no second use, and they focus on CO2 while ignoring the particulates and NOx emissions that have been killing Europeans for a decade or more. Supermarket tabloid stuff.

The average age of a vehicle on the road is around 11 years last I checked.
Is there a compelling reason why we should believe the average EV is going to last longer than 11 years?

Right now the second use for a battery pack is put it in another car if the original car gets crashed or put it on ebay.
Otherwise it's pure speculation.
Wasn't there some company that was going to buy up weak EV packs and use them for grid storage and how's that going?

Russian troll source zerohedge run by Daniel Ivandjiiski.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Daniel_Ivandjiiski

Get a real source, Boris.

Oh yeah like mining battery material doesn't generate PM or any other wastes.

If you really wanted to save the word you should be riding a bicycle. Only a bicycle or walking.

So anyone got any numbers related to battery production or do you just not like the source and subject?

Sir Thomas Lippen-Boris would be a good source. Not.

Oilpan4 said:

The average age of a vehicle on the road is around 11 years last I checked.
Is there a compelling reason why we should believe the average EV is going to last longer than 11 years?

Click to expand...

Your crap article states 94k miles for a Tesla battery until end of life. Go ahead -- justify that with references.

As for the mining argument, it is complicated to figure out source emissions but I wonder: have you ever heard of battery recycling ? Did you notice that the diesel emissions did not include the mining to source the diesel ICE ?

SageBrush said:

Your crap article states 94k miles for a Tesla battery until end of life. Go ahead -- justify that with references.

Click to expand...

Sure. This car:

https://www.cars.com/vehicledetail/detail/774039564/overview/


:lol: :lol:

Last time I checked lithium batteries were economiclly recycled for their steel casing, copper and/or aluminum conductors, the only battery materials really being recycled were the cobalt and nickel.
The left over lithium is not normally recycled in the United States or Europe as far as I can tell, it's safe and non toxic enough to go to a land fill.
Cobalt mining is so environmentally horrible and inhumane we are better off recycling it. If you don't know much about cobalt mining, my recommendation is to keep it that way.

China recycles lithium from batteries with essentially free labor and effectively 0 environmental regulation or regard. I'm sure that's great for the people and environment.
So if you want to freight ship your battery to China to get recycled be my guest.
As best I can tell the recycled or recovered lithium in china gets used in ceramics, glass or in cheap batteries where quality and reliably aren't key factors. Not to make new electric car batteries.

Oilpan4 said:

Right now the second use for a battery pack is put it in another car if the original car gets crashed or put it on ebay.
Otherwise it's pure speculation.
Wasn't there some company that was going to buy up weak EV packs and use them for grid storage and how's that going?

Click to expand...

Here are a few examples w/pointers to others:

https://www.energy.ca.gov/research/energystorage/tour/ev_batteries/
https://insideevs.com/news/337850/xstorage-by-nissan-offers-rebuilt-leaf-batteries-for-home-power/
https://cleantechnica.com/2018/03/24/nissan-pushes-energy-storage-second-life-battery-initiative/
https://electrek.co/2018/06/29/nissan-leaf-battery-packs-power-large-energy-storage-johan-cruijff-arena/
https://electrek.co/2018/05/21/bmw-i3-battery-pack-uk-national-grid-energy-storage-project/
https://electrek.co/2017/06/05/renault-home-battery-pack-tesla-powerwall-competitor/
https://insideevs.com/news/343267/audi-installs-used-lithium-ion-batteries-from-phevs-in-factory-vehicles/
https://web.archive.org/web/20150302103917/http://rmp.ucsd.edu/strategic-energy/storage/2-life.html
https://media.gm.com/media/us/en/gm/news.detail.html/content/Pages/news/us/en/2015/jun/0616-volt-battery.html

Oilpan4 said:

Last time I checked

Click to expand...

Check again

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I'm still waiting for you to justify the assumption of 94k miles per Tesla battery. Do you even read the drivel you post here ?

Oilpan4 said:

Oh yeah like mining battery material doesn't generate PM or any other wastes.

Click to expand...

Of course it does. Come back when you have well researched amounts, along with the embedded and full lifecycle pollution of a diesel car.

This isn't just tesla it's all electric vehicles.
For example has already had its battery replaced.
And can pretty much guarantee I will swap it again well before 94,000, as I am currently at 65,000.

Those battery second life articles appear to mostly show the state of "reused batteries" mostly in europe and appear to be using new batteries mostly. One is about a paragraph long and contains no useful information.
Doesn't look like any one is actively buying used up packs and making them part of some grid storage facility unless it's a one off pilot project or science experiment.
Solar and battery powered street lights are stupid. Better off grid tieing the panels and putting the whole battery in a grid storage setup.

Oilpan4 said:

This isn't just tesla it's all electric vehicles.
For example has already had its battery replaced.
And can pretty much guarantee I will swap it again well before 94,000, as I am currently at 65,000.

Click to expand...

That is the problem with the Leaf. Mine lost about 30% in 6 years. However, my 2013 Tesla Model S just hit 90,000 miles (25,000 miles put on by me). It is on the original battery (I checked before purchase what work had been done under warranty) and has 250 mile rated range (95% of its original EPA rated mileage). Haven't seen any detectable change in the two years I have owned it. I charge to 50% during the week to protect the battery as 125 miles is 3 times what I need on a work day and still leaves me a huge cushion should I need it. The Teslas that may need battery replacement are generally those with a lot of supercharger use and charged to full capacity, both of which are not so good for the battery.

Oilpan4 said:

This isn't just tesla it's all electric vehicles.

Click to expand...

Have you paid any attention to Tesla marketshare in the US for EVs ?

More to the point though, batteries and EVs share a common problem (or opportunity, depending on your POV): they can be a solution if implemented wisely, or an indirect fossil use if used unwisely. An EV can be run off PV, or it can be run off coal. A battery can be recycled with zero pollution or carbon emissions, or be dumped into a waste site. The choice is ours. This is ALL about Tesla because they are paving the way for sustainable EV production. Your propaganda OP is the equivalent of trashing EVs because they can be run off coal while ignoring the all important fact that they can run off clean or clean(er) energy.

Diesel ? Bio-diesel had its day but has failed. And fossil derived diesel is filthy from start to finish.

Do you now understand why your article is garbage, even before we consider the flawed methodology and BS source data, e.g. 94k miles useful Tesla battery life and incomplete diesel lifecycle analysis ?

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I do not label posts as garbage if I disagree with them; I disagree with garbage posts.

You:
post nonsensical garbage about nuclear;
are an AGW denialist;
spout trumper BS;
post that diesel is cleaner than EVs.

You might some day post something that is not garbage ...

This
https://innovationorigins.com/no-diesel-is-not-better-for-the-environment-than-electric/

is a full rebuttal of the OP propaganda.

Electric vehicles and renewables are dependent on fossil fuel power for every stage of their production too. With out the nuclear and fossil fuel back bone of the power grid no one would be charging their car.

Bio diesel hasn't failed I regularly fill up my diesel cans with B20 for my tractor. It's still out there. The only way it fails is economically produced bio diesel is not suitable for use in cold climates during the winter.

There is no way a batter can be recycled with 0 CO2 or pollution. That's a ridiculous fantasy.
A used up lithium battery will likely have to be shipped at least hundreds if not a thousand miles or more on average to the recycling place.
Then there is the chemical seperation of the battery materials. There is a reason it's only being done on a large scale where there no environmental regulations. They can dump the spent/left over chemicals in a river until it kills or sickens a few thousand people down stream. They're non toxic enough so they can probably dump truck loads of chemicals in this way with out messing up people down stream very much.
All the chemicals used to break down and recycle the lithium battery materials will come from the petrochemical industry.