I Want my (fast) DC!

edatoakrun said:

"whining?"

"complaining?"

Well, maybe I erred in attempting to coin a humorous title to this thread, and maybe some should take the time to read my comments more carefully.

The "Suggestion for Nissan" I have made, is that certain aspects of EV development may be over-subsidized by both Nissan and government programs, such as early vehicle sales and home L2 installations, and too little consideration and neccessary subsidies have been given to the development of the fast charge network.

Nissan will lose a lot of money on every LEAF sale in the US for the next few years, and the governmental subsidies each early buyer receives are very expensive to federal (and some State) taxpayers. I believe that, in order for EV's to be profitable for Nissan (and other manufactures), and beneficial to the Nation as a whole, they will need to conveniently and rapidly rechargeable. And the only major fault in The LEAF roll-out, IMO, is the lack of opportunities, both present and in the advanced planning stage, to use the L3 option.

Eventually, fast charging must be a profitable market. It will not be until a sufficient number of EV's are on the road, just as LEAF sales will not be profitable until sales number in the hundreds of thousands-at least. Nissan has made the strategic decision to absorb current vehicle production losses as it's long range profit strategy. Waiting for other entities to provide the missing piece of the LEAF, the L3 chargers, may prove to be a strategic blunder. If Nissan would only select a number of dealers in critical locations for L3 installations, for example, I think future LEAF sales prospects would be greatly improved.

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Please understand that there's nothing wrong with what you're suggesting - and we'll certainly get there! But a "version 1.0" EV with a 100 mile range and concerns about battery degradation with regular L3 charging is not necessarily the best candidate for cross-country travel.

L3 IS ON THE WAY!

The I5 corridor is first in line for complete electrification and there are already L3 units on the ground and in operation.

Considering that until late last summer there was not an approved L3 charger device available to be installed in the US, and considering that this type of deployment requires plenty of government action, and considering that government bodies move at the speed...of government...and not the speed of 'sports car' ...we'll need to keep gently pushing to overcome inertia.

I don't agree that L3 is a strategic necessity at this point because the vast majority of owners will be staying in their local areas. From a business perspective, I think concentrating on L2 deployment is a much better use of the money because that's going to have the largest positive impact on the largest number of drivers.

Please take a quick look at the numbers on this map: http://electric.carstations.com/ Please note the big red "256" hanging over California. Now please note the "59" over Texas. San Antonio is the country's sixth largest city - and so far we have FIVE charge points on the ground - and two of those are Nissan dealers and one is a regular 120V outlet installed in a church parking lot. Wanna trade?

Personally, I'd love to be able to get in an EV and drive from San Antonio to LA, but I'm certainly not holding my breath for that, and didn't even order an L3 option on my Leaf.

As for the perception that EV tax credits are either harmful to government or over subsidized, I offer this...

[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cWt8hTayupE[/youtube]

edit...and considering it could be useful to finish a sentence...

Andy is right....remember "Daddy Oil" still controls the money. until we can prove that "we" know whats best, we wont have another choice. but as more EV'ers get out there, choices will come along with more ways to get a charge.

when did gas stations start? when cars did??

well, that be wrong.

gas stations started when people wanted to go farther away from home than their car would allow because gas used to be home delivery.

now, right now we EVers will bask in the glow of just having an EV. but eventually we will realize that it works and we will want more. then we will start talking with our vote and our money and then Daddy Oil will have to let go which wont happen anyway btw. they are smart enough and rich enough to bail from a sinking ship so L3 will happen and when it does, it will happen in a big way because Big Oil with its Billions will do it and make sure that is only marginally cheaper than their inflated gasoline.

"The I5 corridor is first in line for complete electrification and there are already L3 units on the ground and in operation."

Not exactly, AFAIK. but please post updates.

Prior thread:

http://www.mynissanleaf.com/viewtopic.php?f=4&t=1990

Hi, LakeLeaf.

I've been agitating locally, also.

Check out the blog entry, and the "collaborative" link below:

REU's Paul Hauser doesn't think there's much of a market in Redding for electric cars. Not the right demographics -- too few yuppie "early adopters" is basically what he said on the radio the other morning.

What he didn't say - for obvious reasons - is that owners of new-generation electric cars like the Nissan Leaf would be better off with PG&E because it'll offer time-of-use pricing, allowing owners to recharge overnight when rates are lower. (Even so, an acquaintance who has priced out a Nissan Leaf tells me even with REU's higher rates electricity is still cheaper than gasoline.)

If Hauser won't consider a new rate structure, here's something he could do: Install a public fast-charging station in the parking lot across from the Sundial Bridge. GM and Nissan dealers hereabouts will probably have chargers soon. In a few years - as EV infrastructure grows, a public charging station near the Sundial Bridge might lure some of those early-adopting yuppies off I-5

From one study:

"For example, it may make sense to have public charging well-represented in beach communities or tourist destinations that attract visitors from many miles away, as well as along adjacent travel corridors."

http://www.evcollaborative.org/evcpev123/wp-content/uploads/2010/07/Taking_Charge_final2.pdf

Besides taking in Calatrava's beautiful bridge and the Sacramento River Trail they might also check out Turtle Bay Exploration Park or one of our restaurants while their vehicles are charging. Now wouldn't that be nice? "

http://blogs.redding.com/mbeauchamp/archives/2010/12/instead-of-reu.html

edatoakrun said:

"The I5 corridor is first in line for complete electrification and there are already L3 units on the ground and in operation."

Not exactly, AFAIK. but please post updates.

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Yes - I'm aware of the other thread and the population gap in Nrn California. But the Baja to Vancouver corridor has the vast majority of focus and has for a number of years. Nissan Corporate has stated that I5 is their first focus with I10 from LA to Phoenix second.

Washington:
http://www.commerce.wa.gov/site/636/default.aspx

Vehicle Electrification and Transportation - We are working with others at the national, state and local level to develop consistent standards and infrastructure to support Vehicle Electrification with a focus on the I-5 corridor.

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http://www.energyboom.com/transport...interstate-5-going-become-electrified-highway

The goal is to place 7 to10 level 3 charging stations along the well-used I-5 corridor, allowing EV drivers to charge a typical battery to 80% in under 30 minutes.

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Oregon:
http://www.plugincars.com/plug-char...corridor-oregon-aims-mexico-canada-82435.html

ECOtality, one of the largest suppliers of electric vehicle charging equipment and networks, today announced that they will be expanding the EV Project in Oregon to include DC fast charging stations on the southern stretch of Interstate 5 in Oregon. This announcement came hand-in-hand with Oregon's governor, Ted Kulongoski, committing to spending his state's own funds to install more DC fast charging stations to fill in any missing holes.

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http://www.oregonlive.com/pacific-n...electric_car-charging_stations_along_i-5.html

EUGENE -- Oregon has won $700,000 in federal stimulus dollars to install up to eight fast-charging stations for electric cars along Interstate 5 from Eugene to the California border.

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http://www.pacificcoastcollaborative.org/priorities/transportation/Pages/GreenHighways.aspx

To accelerate adoption of new transportation technologies and stimulate private infrastructure investment, the Pacific coastal jurisdictions are working to establish a "green highway", intermittent alternative energy fuelling stations that will support electric and alternative fuel-powered vehicles along the Interstate 5/Highway 99 corridor leading from Southern California to Whistler, British Columbia through a variety of individual and joint agreements and initiatives.

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We don't have a single L3 in San Antonio and I'm not aware of plans to install one. There's one planned in Houston as an electric company demonstration project. I can drive to Austin because it's only 60 miles. I'm planning to drive my car from Dallas to San Antonio when I bring it home - and that journey is only possible because there are Nissan dealers spaced down I35. San Antonio to Dallas is out of the question as is anywhere in Texas to El Paso. Sniff...

AndyH said:

As for the perception that EV tax credits are either harmful to government or over subsidized, I offer this...

[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cWt8hTayupE[/youtube]

edit...and considering it could be useful to finish a sentence...

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love that video but do you realize that our Oil budget takes up almost 3/4 of the pennies on the right side of the blue line? (the money we have to borrow?)

DaveinOlyWA said:

love that video but do you realize that our Oil budget takes up almost 3/4 of the pennies on the right side of the blue line? (the money we have to borrow?)

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I wonder how many pennies cover subsidies to the petroleum industry?

edatoakrun said:

Hi, LakeLeaf.

I've been agitating locally, also.

Check out the blog entry, and the "collaborative" link below:

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Good work edtoakrun! If we can just get a couple of QC stations in to allow EV's to access some interesting, beautiful, eco destinations - I think the support in terms of visitation and tourism that will result will provide some impetus for more such attempts. After all - the Leaf is at it's very roots a car, and in America we love our cars, love the freedom the give us and the places they allow us to visit. What better way to get out for a nice afternoon or a nice weekend, then to be able to spend a few hours driving your electric car and enjoying the beauty around you.

Don't get me wrong - I completely agree with the folks here who say the Leaf really is a commuter car - as it clearly is. But as you point out, and they point out, in the future there will be longer range and providing a couple of early "EV destinations" would be fabulous and help point the way to the future.

If everybody contributed, each year, the cost of one meal eaten out, we would have quite a bit to fund growing the L3 network over the next 20 years.

Keep in mind that $400,000 for installing a single L3 station is ... WAY high.

Of course, getting fancy with resturants over the freeway costs a lot more, and is not really necessary.

We don't need to contribute anything. Let the gas hogs do it for us. If the average cost of a QC station was $150,000 then a single days oil bill would be enough to install 160 chargers IN EVERY STATE!!

+10,000,000 :lol:

garygid said:

If everybody contributed, each year, the cost of one meal eaten out, we would have quite a bit to fund growing the L3 network over the next 20 years.

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You've already contributed more than enough - Fear not!

From Oil Change International - The thank you letter you didn't receive last year:

Dear average American taxpayer,
As 2010 comes to a close, your friends in the oil industry would like to acknowledge your ongoing generosity and support.

Last year, in addition to the roughly $2300 you spent on gasoline, you gave us at least $10 billion in subsidies. You have our assurances that this money will be used to continue to buy your government, violate human rights, pollute your backyard and the whole planet, and greenwash our image. We're sorry about that little issue with the Gulf of Mexico, but we'd like you to believe its all gone now, and so we'll spend several tens of millions more on an advertising campaign to reassure you.

Your contributions to the oil industry are generously matched by, well, no one. You give us the most. Thanks .

Over the coming year we'll keep buying your democracy, you keep giving us billions, and it'll all be good.

Sincerely,
Big Oil

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garygid said:

Keep in mind that $400,000 for installing a single L3 station is ... WAY high.

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Where in the world did this number come from?! Even the expensive units are only $50K plus installation - and the Nissan units are supposed to be closer to $15-ish thousand. Which side are you on here?

Somebody mentioned over $200 million for under 400 L3 stations, as I recall (perhaps incorrectly). I might be deluded. :lol:

Of course, the most expensive part of most charging stations is the space (possibly land), permits, environmental impact studies, entry and exit plans, traffic impact, the construction, new power service, and finally the install, NOT the cost of the QC itself.

Of course that is possible but at the same time existing sites will be ultilized. Park and ride upgrades. Existing parking lots etc where industrial power would not be a major expense.

In the $150,000 scenario the site development is expected tone the bulk of the cost. The charging unit itself is not that much.

So we may see one unit costing $150,000 but a second unit in the same location costing $15,000 more.

AndyH said:

garygid said:

Keep in mind that $400,000 for installing a single L3 station is ... WAY high.

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Where in the world did this number come from?! Even the expensive units are only $50K plus installation - and the Nissan units are supposed to be closer to $15-ish thousand. Which side are you on here?

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Might include pulling three phase power to remote areas.

Not a bad idea for the USA.

"Japan’s Sumitomo, Nissan Motor and NEC are teaming up to develop a membership-based electric vehicle (EV) charging service in Japan. The firms will carry out a joint study to install standard and quick charging stations in key locations, including for residents of apartment buildings and for monthly parking users. NEC will provide various systems which use cloud computing for membership management, including quick charging services, member authentication and payment processing."

http://cleantech.strategyeye.com/article/gTfLOxe4oF6/2011/01/06/sumitomo_nissan_and_nec_plan_ev_charging_service/

The NYT, in a fair LEAF review yesterday, concluded:

"Will the E.V. genus blossom and proliferate as a result of the Leaf’s introduction?

No single model from any automaker will answer that question, of course. If anything, the Leaf demonstrates how much the widespread acceptance of vehicles that produce zero tailpipe emissions will depend on external factors like a charging infrastructure."

http://www.nytimes.com/2011/01/23/automobiles/autoreviews/23WHEEL.html?pagewanted=1&hpw

Jimmydreams said:

edatoakrun said:

"L3 is being worked in a number of areas - and there are already L3 chargers in operation."

How many in the USA? (actually less now than a few years ago)

Can Bay area LEAF owners conveniently drive to Reno/Tahoe?

Can SoCal owners recharge on the the way to Las Vegas?

"Getting my L2 EVSE was enough of a nightmare that I can easily understand Nissan leaving L3 chargers to individual cities or entities that can make it work."

And it was a "nightmare" of very limited benefit, useful only to yourself.

A great virtue of EV's is the utility of being able to charge at home, whether you choose level 1 or 2 home charging.

But the greatest drawback of EV's will always be limited range, making the PUBLIC infrastructure crucial.

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My point about the nightmare of my L2 was to illustrate that the nightmare must be exponentially worse for L3 systems, public or private.

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Was the nightmare caused by the local government requiring overpriced "Special" licensed individuals, inspectors and other ideots who know nothing about your charger to approve it?

A charger should not require much knowledge beyond a basic electrician, assuming of coarse your homes service is large enough to feed the charger. Even very old homes usually have 240/100 service

I think the nightmare would go away if the fed would ban and limit the ability of localities on this issue directly because there are local ordinances that outright ban having a primary electric vehicle charger on premises by virtue of making the requirements impossible to meet. I often have to wonder what alterior motives go on within town boards and housing comissions.

Sometimes I wonder if the board smokes crack all day and makes writes down what ever comes into their head as law.

Also I've found some rather terrible hurtfull regulations go away if enough people throw a fit and threaten the board, but you need at least 70 other angry people to make problems suddenly go away. Like the you can't store anything under your deck or the you can't have a trailer on the property (anywhere) BS in the middle of the woods up here in WI.

rmay635703 said:

[Was the nightmare caused by the local government requiring overpriced "Special" licensed individuals, inspectors and other ideots who know nothing about your charger to approve it?

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Yes. Apparently, the city I live in won't approve a simple electrical permit unless they have ridiculous levels of supporting docs. It's CYA on steroids. :evil:

Jimmydreams said:

rmay635703 said:

[Was the nightmare caused by the local government requiring overpriced "Special" licensed individuals, inspectors and other ideots who know nothing about your charger to approve it?

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Yes. Apparently, the city I live in won't approve a simple electrical permit unless they have ridiculous levels of supporting docs. It's CYA on steroids. :evil:

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I guess they apparently expect and want everyone to break the law then.

There was at one time legislation to require fair and straightforeward processes and procedures at the local level, (wonder where that went) I'm not sure where you can go but I have a feeling they need to get sued or have a large # of individuals strongly state their oppinion repeatedly over months about their permit process.

You would be amazed what a large angry group can accomplish, around here if it isn't angry they don't seem to care or listen.

Jimmydreams said:

rmay635703 said:

[Was the nightmare caused by the local government requiring overpriced "Special" licensed individuals, inspectors and other ideots who know nothing about your charger to approve it?

Click to expand...

Yes. Apparently, the city I live in won't approve a simple electrical permit unless they have ridiculous levels of supporting docs. It's CYA on steroids. :evil:

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That is where a plug in evse works. Can't be a big deal to just install an outlet. Tell them it is for a welder if you must.

I am not sure why so many get their jumpers in a bunch to plug in an silly appliance.