alozzy said:
Interesting. So I assume it reads BMS data?
Best cells donor for 2012 SL
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Interesting. So I assume it reads BMS data?
Thanks guys for interesting facts. Seems 30kwh effort doesn't worth it: more expensive and heavier battery, adapter to connect it to gen1 + pair tool, both for "who-knows-what" money that's not even announced by this NZ company, plus higher chances to get same problem that I have now rather sooner than later. And only for 6kwh - low ROI I'd say.
Thanks a bunch, queried them.
alozzy said:
Thanks a bunch, queried them.
alozzy
Well-known member
LeftieBiker said:
Based on the sales copy, it's a test loop that allows you to measure the current flow using a clamp style ammeter:
If you are trying to measure the battery capacity of a pack that's been removed from a LEAF already, this would be pretty much the only easy way to do so.
Can the current yield the capacity if you don't know the SOC? I guess the voltage would determine that...
Andrey said:
To be fair, the tool is individually and hand made by the company (quite well, too), so they're targeted to shops that repair cars (not individuals). The price is known, but not published on the website. The best plan for an individual is to rent the tool, as it would be very expensive to buy for just a single swap. The engineer at the company is very professional, helpful, and has done numerous presentations to help EV's and the EV market. He provides rather rare service for Leafs in New Zealand, which is important, as the only support and supply for those Leafs is imports.
I know all of this because I've used the tool to swap batteries between two cars. It worked exceptionally well with no issues. I don't own the tool--I rented one from a "local" shop that has them. In short: The company is real, is doing a significant service to EVs and in particular Leaf owners, and the tool is not "upcoming" or vaporware.
That said, you can't use this tool to pair a 30 or 40kWh pack--unless you already have a 30 or 40kWh car. The tool only supports pairing like for like batteries. At some point in the future, someone may provide a solution to install a 30 or 40 kWh battery into a 24 kWh car and have it work properly, but that does not currently exist. Nissan has engineered the batteries to be incompatible, even though it would be rather easy to make them compatible. The connectors, mounting brackets, and physical external of the pack are identical. People have mounted 30 or 40 kWh cells into a 24 kWh battery pack, using the 24 kWh BMS. And the range estimation and charging circuitry don't work right (due to different voltage curves), but otherwise everything functions. So, if Nissan really wanted to provide 40 kWh replacements for 24 kWh cars, it would be trivial to do so.
In any case, if you're looking to do this, you need to search for either 48 24kWh individual battery modules (96 total cells), open up your pack, and swap the cells, or you need to do a full pack swap with a 24 kWh pack. The best pack to use would be a 2015 pack with 12 bars, but realistically, any 11 or 12 bar pack from 4/2013 or later would be a good choice. Keep in mind that the packs are 600-800 pounds each, so installing them is no trivial matter. You need heavy duty tools, preferably lift tables.
Opening up the pack is even more dangerous--you have to disassemble 48 modules in a pack that, even with the safety fuse pulled, has > 200V running through the busbars. You need the necessary HV safety gloves and insulated tools for such a job. This is why the NZ tool was developed--when doing a pack swap, you can pull the safety fuse, which eliminates any external electrocution hazard when doing the pack swap.
Hope this helps.
Yes it does, Lothsahn, thank you for sharing this info. Do you know the place where can I rent this tool in CA?
Nissan could do better job for EV customer perspective, that's 100%, but they care about their profit, not customer satisfaction.
I've seen lots of videos how people repacks those, and realize danger of HV. BTW in my country 240v is network voltage, and I did electric works myself there. But first I still need to find a good battery assuming worst case scenario - seller doesn't know/didn't capture anything about battery and it's already dismounted.
Nissan could do better job for EV customer perspective, that's 100%, but they care about their profit, not customer satisfaction.
I've seen lots of videos how people repacks those, and realize danger of HV. BTW in my country 240v is network voltage, and I did electric works myself there. But first I still need to find a good battery assuming worst case scenario - seller doesn't know/didn't capture anything about battery and it's already dismounted.
Andrey said:
Some people have built custom cabling they can hook up to the battery and hook that up to a CAN adapter for LeafSpy. You could message Cor about that. I don't have such an adapter and thus can't tell. If you can get such an adapter, Leafspy can tell you the SOH off the battery pack without being installed in a car.
Alternatively, you could try to figure out whether it's a gen 1 or gen 2 pack. If it's a Gen2 pack, it's likely (but not guaranteed to be) in good condition. Here's how to see the difference between a Gen1 and Gen2 pack:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fqAbiyZqp1w
If you want to do a pack swap, you'll need the plastic panels that protect the battery from water and road debris, as they differ from Gen1 to Gen2. You'll also need the mounting brackets as the mounting holes differ on the two cases. If you don't have the mounting brackets or panels, you'll have to buy them from Nissan or a junkyard.
Lothsahn said:
So gen2 battery is mountable to gen1? But I guess I'd need to replace BMS there + wiring + busbars there, I wonder if it fits new shell.
To make things even worse - if I buy wrecked leaf, is it possible to swap gen2 engine + charger to gen1 to get 6.6kw charging? Maybe even together with cooling system. Will such car be street legal and do I need to register the changes?
PS: this car seems to be a victim of BMS reset, ins't it? 23k miles, 12 bars battery, 8 bars charge and only 51 range in ECO.
https://3f6a09f79258cdaaf7a5-6c8ccb4d9e1f436af1543351d3131b41.ssl.cf2.rackcdn.com/vid33801547_uid5d2eab6c63e11.jpg
Andrey said:
Two options:
1) Swap the battery cells. In this case, you drop the pack, open it up, remove all the old Gen1 cells, and put the new Gen2 cells in. Close up the pack and reinstall into your car. No new brackets, harnesses, adapters, or panels are needed, as the cells fit right in. However, you're opening up a 200V+ battery pack that is energized, so the risk is higher. Also, this won't reset your car's battery capacity bars--you'll have a 7 bar car that has the range of a new battery. Matters if you try to sell your car...
2) Swap the entire pack. In this case, yes, you'll need new panels and a mounting harness as the shells are slightly different. The car will recognize the new pack and the battery capacity bars will reflect the new pack.
No, you cannot use a 2013+ charger in a 2011/2012 leaf. The charger/motor/inverter stack and location is totally different, so upgrading to 6.6kw charging is essentially not possible. There are a couple people who did it with aftermarket chargers, but nobody's used the stock leaf charger from a 2013 in a 2011/2012. If you swapped the entire EV stack--VCM, Inverter, Motor, charger, and wiring harnesses, then yes, it'd work--you'd have a 2013 car in a 2011 body. But who wants to do all THAT work? Just sell the car and buy a 2013 at that point...
Lothsahn said:
Will I need to ask dealer to pair the battery or do swap BMS? Benefit of this that I would be able to cell my 8 bar battery.
Yes, that's what I talk about. From that perspective I start to realize the amount of work, even for DIY. I keep forgetting it's not a toy but 1.5 ton car, even if it looks like a toy. BTW I don't see any difference in 2012 and 2013 bodies.Lothsahn said:
Can you advice on if it's BMS reset victim or not? I updated previous post with the link.
Thanks LothSahn, you're just priceless source of Leaf knowledge!
The Gen I Leaf has marker lights on the sides of the front fenders. Also, it isn't obvious, but the Gen I uses some aluminum body panels. I don't know if the Gen I body is different in the rear cargo area to accommodate the onboard charger, but it may be.
BMS resets are temporary and the car will start to lose capacity bars from the display over the course of weeks or months, rather than years, as it relearns the pack's real capacity. One immediate way to tell is to range test the car, and see if the actual range gibes with the displayed capacity. LeafSpy can be fooled by a recent reset, but as time passes it can be used to show that one has been done.
Right, nothing special in gen2 body.LeftieBiker said:
I know that, and probably guys selling leafs too, so I wonder is it possible to distinguish it by looking at dashboard picture.LeftieBiker said:
23k miles isn't too much for 2015, but it depends - how many QC, what charge-discharge percentage it hit permanently, and how hot it was for extended period.
If you could tell a BMS reset by looking at a photo of the dash, things would be much easier for all of us - and there would be few if any intentional resets. If you see 12 capacity bars and an estimated range of 50 miles with a full charge, that could indicate a reset - or it could indicate a lead-footed test drive before the last recharge.
Andrey said:
If you use the tool, you won't need a dealer at all. If you don't use the tool, you'll need a dealer to activate, not swap, the BMS, which my local dealers refused to do. Some are more willing to do so. Keep in mind the BMS is located inside the battery pack, so when you swap the pack, you swap the BMS. "Pairing the battery" is the same thing as "pairing the BMS"--you're linking the BMS to the VCM (vehicle control module).
Either way, you'll have your old 8-bar battery that you can sell for solar projects, etc.
Andrey said:
Yes, and you might have to swap a good number of the wiring harnesses, and be super careful, because the pinouts may differ. Keep in mind that while the body did not significantly change from 2012 to 2013, it was a refresh, so many of the connectors, wiring, and harnesses are totally different. You'll essentially have to rebuild the entire car and your donor car better have basically all the parts.
Lothsahn said:
I don't know if this is a BMS reset or not. The 51 miles seems like a reasonable, but low, estimate for a 70% charged 85% SOH pack. If not a BMS reset, I suspect this pack is about to hit 11 bars soon. Any way to get a Leafspy reading of that battery pack?
Keep in mind the miles remaining is affected by outside temperature. If that picture was taken on a 2011, 2012, or 2013+ S-trim when it was really cold, it might be severely lowering the estimated range, due to the inefficient heating system.
If a BMS reset occurs, I fully expect the range estimation to be the full estimate when charged (~100 miles), as the BMS would be telling you to expect max range. Then, as you drive the car, the range estimation should plummet very quickly because for each mile you drive, you're using 2 or 3 miles of the 100 mile range.
Is this prospective battery pack a gen1 or a gen2 pack? Personally, I would only be interested in buying Gen2 packs. Gen1 packs will degrade very quickly. https://youtu.be/fqAbiyZqp1w
Lothsahn said:
You are very welcome!
I just drove my 12 bar, 87% SOH (it's almost an 11 bar) Leaf, and I had 51 miles remaining with 8 bars on the dash. Here's a picture of my dash:
http://lothsahn.com:3172/IMG_20190718_185743.jpg
So it may or may not be a BMS reset. If you can get that battery for a reasonable price, it could make a very good battery.
http://lothsahn.com:3172/IMG_20190718_185743.jpg
So it may or may not be a BMS reset. If you can get that battery for a reasonable price, it could make a very good battery.
