Warning: Battery Replacement Cost Increase (now $8500)

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cwerdna said:
SageBrush said:
Lothsahn said:
Nearly 40% of 2012 Teslas have had the drive unit replaced?
Very few failures. The motors were replaced due to noise and only in the context of other-worldly customer support by Tesla.
Besides, it was first year model, small numbers were made, and it was resolved quickly.
If you had a car
Thanks for the anecdotes.

Why don't you post anecdotes of LEAFs that lose battery capacity at crazy rates.
That should keep you busy.
 
I’m beginning to wonder how desirable a non-warranty replacement battery will actually be for a 2011-2012-early2013 LEAF. I’ve signed up with Fenix Power for a battery replacement/subscription if/when their product becomes viable, but there has been little progress and the latest news on their website is dated October 2018. At some point as an original 2012 owner, I’m probably going to say the vehicle just isn’t worth the cost regardless of how much I like the car. Even with a new 24kwhr battery, I’ll still only get 70+ miles, far better financially to get a 2015 at the same price or so for the around-town runabout. But I really, really like my electronic parking brake so what do I do?

As time passes, I think my better options are to either keep the car as is until it just dies, or take whatever Carvana or other dealer will give me as a trade...I think a private sale could happen but not likely with far better options available. Even Tesla will generally meet a Carmax offer on a trade.

At this point, I’m pretty bummed about the LEAF. It was such an amazing experience in early 2012 with decent commuter abilities, solid comfort, and low maintenance requirements. As time and battery depreciation rapidly happened but not rapidly enough to take advantage of the capacity warranty, the vehicle became less and less amazing. Then in 2018 a spark of hope with 3rd parties making waves about alternate battery options. And as the time continues without a real delivered solution, disappointment creeps back in.

So after all this introspection, I have a few outcomes:
1- the EV is only recently and only with some EVs an ICE replacement vehicle. I’m thrilled that I can own a Tesla Model 3 which did indeed replace an ICE for me.
2- my LEAF ownership gave me insights into a far better (at least for me) way of driving, with different expectations and greater awareness of just how hard any massive conversion to EVs will really be. It also showed me that just because you are manufacturing an EV doesn’t remotely mean you can design a navigation system.
3- I fault Nissan for not providing any sort of capacity warranty with the interim exception of the 5-year one for early LEAFs. Many ICE vehicles have a 100,000-mile or better powertrain warranty and the battery IS the powertrain engine-equivalent in an EV.
4- I feel Tesla has done a bit of a disservice in focusing more on their self-driving technology and less on the pure goodness of being an outstanding electric car. With their superior range and minimal capacity degradation, that’s a wonderful story to tell, and the technology stuff is just add on. My Model 3 is in every way the very best most exciting car I’ve owned or driven, even without the tech tricks.
5- traditional ICE manufacturer’s dealerships really do not want to deal with EVs. We’ve had not a single Bolt come through locally since they’ve been in production, and the number of local Volts is very very small and now of course discontinued. Want an iPace? Good luck, and either order it or go to Atlanta. Want an eTron? Pretty much the same. Same for the other EVs. The wave of buyers seeing the light and migrating in droves to EVs in only a couple of years (from 2012) just did not happen. The Model 3 is the first spike in EV ownership, and I hope it continues to stimulate EVs as I think will. Rivian is an unknown potential with its $0.5billion investment from Ford but could be incredible. Or not.
6- maybe the biggest bang for the buck will be in commercial fleets with the Tesla Semi. So many trucking carriers and companies have these on order (each requiring a $50,000 deposit) primarily for reduced operating costs that trucking may just be the real growth arena for EVs. I hope so. Individual EV car sales are still a small portion of overall, and electric busses are almost a rounding error with very very slow growth.

Back to the topic, I question the viability of a battery replacement at almost any cost above a few thousand dollars for a 2011-2013 vintage car. Just doesn’t seem to work.
 
SalisburySam said:
Back to the topic, I question the viability of a battery replacement at almost any cost above a few thousand dollars for a 2011-2013 vintage car. Just doesn’t seem to work.
-
My take is different. I figure that any car that costs me less than $150 a month for amortized purchase, repairs, maintenance, insurance and fuel is a bargain.

When our LEAF is no longer usable we will become a single car family with our Tesla Model 3 and that will be fine. If we actually needed a commuter to go along with the Tesla I would be OK spending $6,000 for a battery replacement if I thought the car was otherwise in excellent condition and the battery good for 5 years of use. After all, that is $100 a month with some room for repairs and maintenance.
 
SalisburySam said:
I’m beginning to wonder how desirable a non-warranty replacement battery will actually be for a 2011-2012-early2013 LEAF. I’ve signed up with Fenix Power for a battery replacement/subscription if/when their product becomes viable, but there has been little progress and the latest news on their website is dated October 2018. At some point as an original 2012 owner, I’m probably going to say the vehicle just isn’t worth the cost regardless of how much I like the car. Even with a new 24kwhr battery, I’ll still only get 70+ miles, far better financially to get a 2015 at the same price or so for the around-town runabout. But I really, really like my electronic parking brake so what do I do?

I really disagree. I think there's a lot of demand for a 60 mile range Leaf. Assuming Fenix is able to bring the battery to market, a guaranteed 80%+ SOH battery gives a permanent 60 mile range, forever, on their subscription. That means it will be a very useful second car for a lot of families and never go bad. The monthly cost of the battery roughly covers the gas savings in a lot of locales, and half the gas savings in others. So for cheapskates like me, there's no cheaper car to own, plus all the benefits of an EV.

If I still don't have you convinced, Fenix is hoping to release a 30kWh battery. If that happens, it will change everything.

I still assert that if Nissan had done nothing other than offer 40kWh batteries as replacement for all model Leafs, at cost, they would not be dealing with the customer ill will they have. A 40 kWh battery in a 2011 Leaf would be an incredibly good car, heat pump or no. The problem isn't the car, or the age. The problem is that 24kWh is extremely small for modern EVs in the US.

I still assert, as a reservation holder, that Fenix is extremely high risk and unlikely to pan out. This is a very difficult business and technical problem, and we've heard very little updates from them in the last few months. So I think the biggest problem with Fenix isn't that the product would be useful for 2011/2012 owners, but instead that it won't ever graduate from vaporware status.
 
Lothsahn said:
I still assert, as a reservation holder, that Fenix is extremely high risk and unlikely to pan out.
To put it mildly.


Quoting the fenix:
Our guiding principle behind our engineering and design is that we believe the battery is NOT a component of the car, but rather a part of the fuel.

And by the way, vapor has a price
Buy your Batteries: $1,500 installation, approximately $6,000 for the battery modules, and a reasonable monthly service plan.
 
I would not do a "subscription" unless it was significantly cheaper or higher capacity than a battery I could buy. If Nissan would offer a 30 kWh or larger battery (with same warranty as new car batteries of that size) for my car, I would probably buy one. I most likely will not buy a replacement 24 kWh battery with only 60,000-mile capacity warranty at current prices because it makes more sense to buy a new car, take the tax credit again, and have a longer range car with a 100,000-mile battery warranty.
 
^^ Yep

When NIssan raised 24 kWh battery price to $8,500 installed it was a polite way of Nissan saying "we do not want to sell a replacement battery for the LEAF."

I hope they change their mind
 
GerryAZ said:
I most likely will not buy a replacement 24 kWh battery with only 60,000-mile capacity warranty at current prices because it makes more sense to buy a new car, take the tax credit again, and have a longer range car with a 100,000-mile battery warranty.

Gerry, what would your out of pocket be for a new Leaf? Looks like ~$24k in my area... Is it a lot lower there?
 
Was the $8500 cost for a 24kwh battery, or larger? Reason I ask is that I thought I had read somewhere, that Nissan does all replacements with 40kwh packs.

I have a 2016 with a 30kwh pack that has lost 2 bars. As of Aug 2021, a Denver-area Nissan dealer quoted a cash price of $13,500 to install a 40kwh pack. If your quote was actually for a 40kwh pack replacement, then Nissan battery prices are increasing exponentially!

So much for the “circular economy” the ivory-tower environmental economists talk about. LOL

Lothsahn said:
I just called Nissan about a replacement battery because my 2011 Nissan leaf is down to 8 bars and I only get about 35 miles on a charge. I was informed that the battery replacement cost is now $7000 plus labor and taxes (up from $5499). This means replacement costs are around $8500. This change occurred a couple months ago. I expressed my displeasure that as battery pack costs continue to drop, Nissan has actually raised their pack pricing.

Wanted to warn everyone out there that this change occurred. This makes it significantly more expensive to repair your used Nissan Leaf, so plan accordingly. It doesn't look like Nissan has any plans to lower pack pricing as manufacturing costs drop.

Also, they said the refurbished battery program in Japan likely won't be coming to the US anytime soon due to EPA regulations.

References:
[1] https://insideevs.com/breaking-nissan-prices-leaf-battery-replacement-5499-new-packs-heat-durable/
[2] https://electrek.co/2017/01/30/electric-vehicle-battery-cost-dropped-80-6-years-227kwh-tesla-190kwh/
 
Eddie16 said:
Was the $8500 cost for a 24kwh battery, or larger? Reason I ask is that I thought I had read somewhere, that Nissan does all replacements with 40kwh packs.

I have a 2016 with a 30kwh pack that has lost 2 bars. As of Aug 2021, a Denver-area Nissan dealer quoted a cash price of $13,500 to install a 40kwh pack. If your quote was actually for a 40kwh pack replacement, then Nissan battery prices are increasing exponentially!

So much for the “circular economy” the ivory-tower environmental economists talk about. LOL

Lothsahn said:
I just called Nissan about a replacement battery because my 2011 Nissan leaf is down to 8 bars and I only get about 35 miles on a charge. I was informed that the battery replacement cost is now $7000 plus labor and taxes (up from $5499). This means replacement costs are around $8500. This change occurred a couple months ago. I expressed my displeasure that as battery pack costs continue to drop, Nissan has actually raised their pack pricing.

Wanted to warn everyone out there that this change occurred. This makes it significantly more expensive to repair your used Nissan Leaf, so plan accordingly. It doesn't look like Nissan has any plans to lower pack pricing as manufacturing costs drop.

Also, they said the refurbished battery program in Japan likely won't be coming to the US anytime soon due to EPA regulations.

References:
[1] https://insideevs.com/breaking-nissan-prices-leaf-battery-replacement-5499-new-packs-heat-durable/
[2] https://electrek.co/2017/01/30/electric-vehicle-battery-cost-dropped-80-6-years-227kwh-tesla-190kwh/

30 kwh pack has degradation warranty good for 8 years or 100,000 miles so unless you are in dire straits with range, I would not pay to upgrade and yeah, it would be a 40 kwh pack either way. If you are in dire straits with range, I would look at upgrading to a Gen two. More money but will last.
 
Eddie16 said:
Was the $8500 cost for a 24kwh battery, or larger? Reason I ask is that I thought I had read somewhere, that Nissan does all replacements with 40kwh packs.

I have a 2016 with a 30kwh pack that has lost 2 bars. As of Aug 2021, a Denver-area Nissan dealer quoted a cash price of $13,500 to install a 40kwh pack. If your quote was actually for a 40kwh pack replacement, then Nissan battery prices are increasing exponentially!
The number you quoted (bolded by me above) is slightly above what it cost me to do a 24->40 kWh pack upgrade myself (https://www.electricauto.org/blog/keeping-your-nissan-leaf). That doesn't count the CAN-bridge converter (probably not necessary in your case) or what I "recovered" through the sale of my (old) battery pack, but it's in the ballpark.

We can debate cost/value all day long, but I had great results (the 40 kWh pack I found was practically brand new) and would do it again in a heartbeat (love my Gen1 Leaf).

As a side note, the only way I know of to get a 40 kWh pack in a 24 kWh Leaf is DIY.
 
Well, i took my 2017 leaf into Coulter Nissan today for a battery check, and luckily for me, it has degraded sufficiently to be covered under a full replacement for free. I’m glad, given we really like our Leaf. They will order one in and let me know when it arrives for the installation.

BUT, I had a very interesting chat - it was closing time so I didn’t get many details. The customer service rep said “sure is good thing yours is under warranty!” I said why..”You know how expensive those are to replace off warranty?” I said its been a few years since I looked at it, but I thought maybe 6k. He said “nope. 20k!” “No way” i said.

He said “I’ll show you - pulled up the warranty request paperwork for my Leaf and sure enough, $19,000 for the battery and $1,000 for labor. I was shocked. He said another one, a 2015 with 80k miles on it, came through earlier the prior week and was not under warranty and the lady was appalled. “I don’t blame her” I said.

Very glad our is under warranty - big reason we searched out a 2017 with the longer warranty to buy - a showroom demo with 500 miles on it, for $17k - basically new, off the floor.

Not sure we will get another battery replaced under warranty, but he as heck we won’t pay 20k for one if not. Incredible. I’ll post more details as I get them, including what size battery that was quoted.

RHK
 
RawhideKid said:
Well, i took my 2017 leaf into Coulter Nissan today for a battery check, and luckily for me, it has degraded sufficiently to be covered under a full replacement for free. I’m glad, given we really like our Leaf. They will order one in and let me know when it arrives for the installation.

BUT, I had a very interesting chat - it was closing time so I didn’t get many details. The customer service rep said “sure is good thing yours is under warranty!” I said why..”You know how expensive those are to replace off warranty?” I said its been a few years since I looked at it, but I thought maybe 6k. He said “nope. 20k!” “No way” i said.

He said “I’ll show you - pulled up the warranty request paperwork for my Leaf and sure enough, $19,000 for the battery and $1,000 for labor. I was shocked. He said another one, a 2015 with 80k miles on it, came through earlier the prior week and was not under warranty and the lady was appalled. “I don’t blame her” I said.

Very glad our is under warranty - big reason we searched out a 2017 with the longer warranty to buy - a showroom demo with 500 miles on it, for $17k - basically new, off the floor.

Not sure we will get another battery replaced under warranty, but he as heck we won’t pay 20k for one if not. Incredible. I’ll post more details as I get them, including what size battery that was quoted.

RHK

More expensive, yes but its a 40 kwh pack that has better chemistry than your OEM.
 
SageBrush said:
DaveinOlyWA said:
More expensive, yes but its a 40 kwh pack that has better chemistry than your OEM.
That explains a $10k price. The other $10k is Nissan humor
I might be laughing...all the way to the bank (although some of you may disagree).
I did my 24kWh->40kWh battery upgrade for ~$12k "all in" (bought Gen2 salvage Leaf/sold Gen1 battery pack) and I've noticed that (salvaged) car prices have done nothing but go up since I did mine earlier this year.
 
Stanton said:
I did my 24kWh->40kWh battery upgrade for ~$12k "all in" (bought Gen2 salvage Leaf/sold Gen1 battery pack) and I've noticed that (salvaged) car prices have done nothing but go up since I did mine earlier this year.

It's borderline worthwhile to retrofit an older LEAF with a 40 kWh pack at that price, as there's some risk that a very expensive HV component fails as the car ages. A used 2018 would have warranty for several more years.

The other risk is if you ever have to sell the car, will prospective buyers see the value that you added and be willing to pay a substantial premium compared to other LEAFs of the same vintage. If I did the upgrade, I would definitely plan on driving it into the ground. Sometimes life has other ideas though.
 
alozzy said:
If I did the upgrade, I would definitely plan on driving it into the ground.
That is exactly what I intend to do, and with the Leaf's (good) track record I may be very happy for a long time.
 
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