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EVDRIVER said:
There are still yet no EV's on the market that compete head to head with Tesla. None produced or announced. All the so called "Tesla Killers" ended up being duds. <snip>
The Taycan has certainly been announced, and is due to be introduced on Sept. 4th. I take it you don't believe that a fully-engineered and developed Porsche will compete with the Model S, especially as the latter is now 7 years old? The P100DL may be faster 0-60, but the Taycan can do that a lot more times without limiting itself, and it will undoubtedly handle like Porsche owners expect, plus the Taycan can charge faster. At least in Europe high-power QCs are plentiful, and the number is growing here thanks to EA and to some extent, EVgo.

At the lower end of the premium range (3 SR+), I agree that as yet there's little competition, although we'll have to see what happens with the Polestar 2 and others of that ilk (which are a price notch up compared to the SR+, but there may be some overlap).
 
GRA said:
EVDRIVER said:
There are still yet no EV's on the market that compete head to head with Tesla. None produced or announced. All the so called "Tesla Killers" ended up being duds. <snip>
The Taycan has certainly been announced, and is due to be introduced on Sept. 4th. I take it you don't believe that a fully-engineered and developed Porsche will compete with the Model S, especially as the latter is now 7 years old? The P100DL may be faster 0-60, but the Taycan can do that a lot more times without limiting itself, and it will undoubtedly handle like Porsche owners expect, plus the Taycan can charge faster. At least in Europe high-power QCs are plentiful, and the number is growing here thanks to EA and to some extent, EVgo.

At the lower end of the premium range (3 SR+), I agree that as yet there's little competition, although we'll have to see what happens with the Polestar 2 and others of that ilk (which are a price notch up compared to the SR+, but there may be some overlap).

It will not sell like the 3. Charge faster where? Good luck for now.
 
EVDRIVER said:
GRA said:
EVDRIVER said:
There are still yet no EV's on the market that compete head to head with Tesla. None produced or announced. All the so called "Tesla Killers" ended up being duds. <snip>
The Taycan has certainly been announced, and is due to be introduced on Sept. 4th. I take it you don't believe that a fully-engineered and developed Porsche will compete with the Model S, especially as the latter is now 7 years old? The P100DL may be faster 0-60, but the Taycan can do that a lot more times without limiting itself, and it will undoubtedly handle like Porsche owners expect, plus the Taycan can charge faster. At least in Europe high-power QCs are plentiful, and the number is growing here thanks to EA and to some extent, EVgo.

At the lower end of the premium range (3 SR+), I agree that as yet there's little competition, although we'll have to see what happens with the Polestar 2 and others of that ilk (which are a price notch up compared to the SR+, but there may be some overlap).

It will not sell like the 3. Charge faster where? Good luck for now.


Are you referring to the Polestar etc., or the Taycan? if the latter, of course the Taycan won't sell like the Model 3, as it's far more expensive and will directly compete with the Model S. The Polestar slots in between the 3 and S pricewise. As to where the Taycan can charge faster, as I mentioned above, in the U.S. any EA hwy site and a few EVgo ones; in much of western Europe, with density and coverage increasing rapidly.
 
EVDRIVER said:
cwerdna said:
goldbrick said:
That could all be true but the 'general public' often doesn't know or care as much about the facts as they probably should. Ie, image matters a lot and people can be biased for no good reason. That's one reason companies care so much about their image and reputation in the marketplace and why a CEO (or company) who seems arrogant and smarter than everyone can piss a lot of people off. And folks who have a choice usually will pick a product from a company that they feel good about, for better or worse. For now, Tesla is the cool choice for the early adopters and techno-geeks and self-styled cool kids. For Joe Sixpack in Toledo, not so much.
Indeed on all of the above. I work in Silicon Valley and my company is partially a tech company. We have tons of Teslas and it seems like we have some fanboys amongst us.

At the same time, Elon is very polarizing. When Elon tweeted that you had to work 80 to 100 hours/week to "change the world" (https://www.inc.com/business-insider/elon-musk-says-you-need-to-work-80-hours-a-week-to-save-the-world.html), there was some REALLY negative reaction from some folks within my company.

Yes Millennials don't generally like to work much at all and everyone lovers long hours. There are still yet no EV's on the market that compete head to head with Tesla. None produced or announced. All the so called "Tesla Killers" ended up being duds. What is doing very well is Tesla FUD and stock manipulators as well as experts on the Tesla products that have never driven one. Not to mention auto journalists that give bad reviews on AP while having AP turned off during testing claiming it does not work. The nonsense and ignorance is surreal.
You're pointing out the result, but not the why.

Why are there no competitors with Tesla? Hint: nobody really cares to make one.

Although that was a statement I made a few months ago as well. It's not true anymore. Anybody who's read a review of the Taycan and was thinking about a model s is probably closing their wallet.

It dawned on me a year or two ago that the reason there was no competition was simply a lack of will, not ability, and that in time the competition would come in. They are doing that now. The Taycan is a superior EV to the Model S.

As for FUD, dishonesty is lauded more by musk than anybody else. Didn't he say there would be a million car robo fleet next year? And he said that recently! The guy is a bullshit artist. Don't forget about the teslas which are supposedly going to appreciate in value. When backed into a corner he just starts making ever more ridiculous claims.
 
EVDRIVER said:
GRA said:
EVDRIVER said:
There are still yet no EV's on the market that compete head to head with Tesla. None produced or announced. All the so called "Tesla Killers" ended up being duds. <snip>
The Taycan has certainly been announced, and is due to be introduced on Sept. 4th. I take it you don't believe that a fully-engineered and developed Porsche will compete with the Model S, especially as the latter is now 7 years old? The P100DL may be faster 0-60, but the Taycan can do that a lot more times without limiting itself, and it will undoubtedly handle like Porsche owners expect, plus the Taycan can charge faster. At least in Europe high-power QCs are plentiful, and the number is growing here thanks to EA and to some extent, EVgo.

At the lower end of the premium range (3 SR+), I agree that as yet there's little competition, although we'll have to see what happens with the Polestar 2 and others of that ilk (which are a price notch up compared to the SR+, but there may be some overlap).

It will not sell like the 3. Charge faster where? Good luck for now.
Taycan is not a competitor with the 3.

And as for competing with the Model S, let's put guessing aside and go with Motortrend's opinion. Bold is mine.
https://www.motortrend.com/news/2020-porsche-taycan-review-electric-car-tesla-fighter/

Should Tesla be worried? Absolutely. Even from the passenger seat, it's clear the Porsche is dynamically superior in every way. And if the numbers we've seen hold up under our testing, go-fast Teslas such as the Model S 100D may not have a decisive range advantage over the Taycan, especially when driven hard. Combine that with noticeably better build quality—even on the preproduction car—and the cachet of that Porsche badge, and it all adds up to one thing: The Taycan is a game-changer.

Much conjecture over the past couple of years about what would happen when a real car company put their weight behind an EV. And now we know. Big surprise, it turns out that those dinosaur car companies actually are pretty good at making EVs if they really want to.
 
EVDRIVER said:
Name one.


Obviously he just did, so why be deliberately obtuse? And why should this be a surprise? It's not as if there aren't plenty of legacy car manufacturers fully capable of producing an excellent BEV if they want to. Here's Car and Driver's take, from their first ride-along in a prototype: https://www.caranddriver.com/reviews/a28662827/2020-porsche-taycan-prototype-ride/

Note that Porsche is now claiming a sub-3.0 sec. 0-60 time, down from their earlier, more conservative 3.5 sec. claim. Something I hadn't seen before is that the Taycan will have a two-speed rear axle. I suspect this one will be a lot more reliable than the one in the early Tesla roadsters, but we'll see. One potential sales downside vs. the S is that it will be a sedan and not a hatch, which will definitely lessen the appeal to some.

In other news, via IEVS:
Nextmove Refutes Tesla On Order Cancellation: With Documents
https://insideevs.com/news/366374/nextmove-tesla-order-cancellation-documents/
 
That car with options will be very expensive, have very limited charging network and will not be mass produced. The market share will no be any competitive threat to Tesla models and you can get a 3P that will perform at 95% for half the cost, is more efficient, has more range and you can drive distances. Wait for until people actually own and drive these cars.
 
Sure it will be expensive, but do Porsche buyers care? No more than Model S P100D buyers do, which will be the competition. It will be what Porsche buyers expect. As has been pointed out to you repeatedly, while all charge networks (including the SC network) are currently "very limited", the high-power CCS network is rapidly expanding, currently far quicker than Tesla's own V3 SCs are. And while the Model 3 will closely approach the Taycan's charge rate, the Model S won't.

Porsche seems to have as many reservations for the Taycan as they can handle. Now, maybe major problems will develop with the car once it gets into the hands of owners, but that's far less likely than was the case with Tesla, given that Tesla was essentially starting from scratch 16 years ago.
 
EVDRIVER said:
That car with options will be very expensive, have very limited charging network and will not be mass produced. The market share will no be any competitive threat to Tesla models and you can get a 3P that will perform at 95% for half the cost, is more efficient, has more range and you can drive distances. Wait for until people actually own and drive these cars.
You have a muscle car mentality. Saying that a 3 will perform 95% as well is like saying I can buy a sub $100k dodge hellcat that does an amazing 0-60, therefore a $400k ferrari is a waste of money.

Taycan will take S buyers whether you like it or not and, to the point, it proves that a dinosaur can build a superior EV.
 
Yes some sales will go to fans and others that’s not my point. None of the car makers are making EVs that will sell in the same numbers as the 3. I’m sure Ferrari and other super cars take sales as well. The s is also a much larger car in a different class. Until there is a very good and reliable charge infrastructure and EVs that are more efficient there still will be no significant competitors. The S has huge cargo capacity, a 370 mile range and the worlds best charging network that is reliable. The LEAF is also a Tesla competitor.
 
EVDRIVER said:
Yes some sales will go to fans and others that’s not my point. None of the car makers are making EVs that will sell in the same numbers as the 3.

Not yet, but they obviously can. But that wasn't your claim. In reply to EatsShootsandLEAFs' statement that
Much conjecture over the past couple of years about what would happen when a real car company put their weight behind an EV. And now we know. Big surprise, it turns out that those dinosaur car companies actually are pretty good at making EVs if they really want to
you wrote
Name one.


I take it you are now agreeing that the Taycan is a good (B)EV. So are the Bolt, Niro, and Kona, ftm, and you might even put the LEAF in that category for a limited climate range. None of them will sell as well as the 3, but then neither will the S or X. So what? BEVs still aren't equal to less expensive ICEs in many ways, and they remain niche vehicles dependent on subsidies, perks, mandates and 'cool' factor for sales. Only the higher end of the market can ignore the price and infrastructure disadvantages they still labor under.
 
webb14leafs said:
I'm a little perplexed by your comments on the Model 3's reliability. Not refuting them at all, as I've read similar complaints before; but I know several Model 3 owners who absolutely love their car and have had no problems whatsoever. Most of them are hardcore fanboys though, so that might be why.

Evaluating what I have seen, read and people I know, the greatest category by far is people who love their 3's AND have had problems including one lady who had hers in the shop a DOZEN (not kidding here) times exceeding a year. Her final resolution? Tesla bought her car back and she got another 3!

Now that is fanboyism!
 
GRA++

DaveinOlyWA said:
webb14leafs said:
I'm a little perplexed by your comments on the Model 3's reliability. Not refuting them at all, as I've read similar complaints before; but I know several Model 3 owners who absolutely love their car and have had no problems whatsoever. Most of them are hardcore fanboys though, so that might be why.

Evaluating what I have seen, read and people I know, the greatest category by far is people who love their 3's AND have had problems including one lady who had hers in the shop a DOZEN (not kidding here) times exceeding a year. Her final resolution? Tesla bought her car back and she got another 3!

Now that is fanboyism!
My God, who has time for that sort of nonsense. In the shop a dozen times.

A scathing article just came out by Vanity Fair: https://www.vanityfair.com/news/2019/08/how-elon-musk-gambled-tesla-to-save-solarcity

I believe this sums up my thoughts on Musk perfectly. As I've noted before, I had a deposit on a Model 3 until some time in 2018 when I became thoroughly disenchanted by Musk and the company. I don't know what Musk used to be, but nowadays I think he is the pied piper.

But over the years, many skeptics have come to see Musk’s stunts—from smoking pot during an interview to calling a diver who helped rescue kids trapped in a Thailand cave a “pedo guy”—as more unhinged than iconoclastic. One close observer of Musk recalls how he promised, back in 2001, to give away half of his equity in PayPal—dividing it evenly between “the people that have worked hard to build the company” and “causes I believe make the world a better place.” But Musk never made good on the pledge, and the observer came to see the episode as “symbolic of Musk’s penchant for making grandiose statements that he either knows are not true at the time he makes them, or that he has no real intent of following through on.” Others see Musk’s promises as purposefully manipulative. “Musk has a habit of overstating Tesla’s operational capabilities and its prospects for profitability, especially when the company is preparing to raise capital, collect customer deposits, or secure regulatory benefits,” says Brian Horey of Aurelian Partners, an investment firm.

Yep. He is, in short, a BSer. He BSes, he lies. He cannot be trusted.
 
EatsShootsandLeafs said:
EVDRIVER said:
That car with options will be very expensive, have very limited charging network and will not be mass produced. The market share will no be any competitive threat to Tesla models and you can get a 3P that will perform at 95% for half the cost, is more efficient, has more range and you can drive distances. Wait for until people actually own and drive these cars.
You have a muscle car mentality. Saying that a 3 will perform 95% as well is like saying I can buy a sub $100k dodge hellcat that does an amazing 0-60, therefore a $400k ferrari is a waste of money.

Taycan will take S buyers whether you like it or not and, to the point, it proves that a dinosaur can build a superior EV.

Will it? Or will it just help expand the market? Which is better for Tesla, 90% of a niche market, or 30% of a huge market? The adoption curve beckons. We've barely entered the "early adopter" phase, if at all.

Technology-adoption-curve-including-select-electric-vehicle-markets.png
 
Nubo said:
EatsShootsandLeafs said:
EVDRIVER said:
That car with options will be very expensive, have very limited charging network and will not be mass produced. The market share will no be any competitive threat to Tesla models and you can get a 3P that will perform at 95% for half the cost, is more efficient, has more range and you can drive distances. Wait for until people actually own and drive these cars.
You have a muscle car mentality. Saying that a 3 will perform 95% as well is like saying I can buy a sub $100k dodge hellcat that does an amazing 0-60, therefore a $400k ferrari is a waste of money.

Taycan will take S buyers whether you like it or not and, to the point, it proves that a dinosaur can build a superior EV.

Will it? Or will it just help expand the market? Which is better for Tesla, 90% of a niche market, or 30% of a huge market? The adoption curve beckons. We've barely entered the "early adopter" phase, if at all.

Technology-adoption-curve-including-select-electric-vehicle-markets.png
If it works out that way for them yes :)
 
The Verge:
Tesla launched a car insurance product, then spent the next 24 hours fixing it
6
Some owners were getting quoted higher-than-expected rates before the website went down
https://www.theverge.com/2019/8/29/20839607/tesla-car-insurance-broken-high-rate-quotes-california

California only for now. Apparently back up as of 8 p.m. EDT. AP article describing potential need for Tesla to cover its autonomous cars next year, if commercial carriers won't: https://www.latimes.com/business/st...rance-to-owners-of-its-vehicles-in-california
 
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