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Nubo
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Re: Berkeley, CA becoming first city in U.S. to ban natural gas in new buildings

Mon Aug 26, 2019 5:45 pm

danrjones wrote:
Mon Aug 26, 2019 3:52 pm
Good luck fire roasting peppers on an electric stove!
I've had pretty good luck cutting in half and using a cast iron pan. Or two pans, by laying a heated pan on top to help flatten for maximum contact.
I noticed you're still working with polymers.

danrjones
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Re: Berkeley, CA becoming first city in U.S. to ban natural gas in new buildings

Mon Aug 26, 2019 6:14 pm

LeftieBiker wrote:
Mon Aug 26, 2019 4:04 pm
Would I give them up to save the world? Probably. But don't deny the fact that gas has advantages. Almost everyone I know who has had a electric and gas range in their life prefers gas. Its just a better way to cook. Good luck fire roasting peppers on an electric stove!

Kudos for almost deciding to help save the world. I'm sure it was close.
Lol

I'm pretty sure me cooking with electricity isnt going to save the world. The world, and the USA, has much bigger problems, such as our lousy health care system.

I actually have used single burner portable inductive cooking for hotpot, etc. It's nice. But it doesnt put out the massive btus that gas does for cooking that I've seen. We replaced our gas stove about 5 years ago and the gas ranges all had higher BTU max burners than electric.

I was not talking about heat pumps though, since someone asked. But that does raise a question- in cold areas heat pumps bottom out and emergency heating is needed. Gas, oil or resistive electric. Resistive electric is very inefficient. Sure a ground system is nice but its pricey. Gas is cheap. Like it or not, money matters.


Maybe someday gas can go but right now my guess is most of the country will view that in the same light as uber liberals banning bbqs. Or soda. It will just create more push back on a serious issue with little real benefit. Just my 2 cents.
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danrjones
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Re: Berkeley, CA becoming first city in U.S. to ban natural gas in new buildings

Mon Aug 26, 2019 6:18 pm

Nubo wrote:
Mon Aug 26, 2019 5:45 pm
danrjones wrote:
Mon Aug 26, 2019 3:52 pm
Good luck fire roasting peppers on an electric stove!
I've had pretty good luck cutting in half and using a cast iron pan. Or two pans, by laying a heated pan on top to help flatten for maximum contact.

Or you can just use fire. I know, it's almost too simple. If Ron Popeil was around I'm sure he could invent a pepper roaster for you.

Actually I have one of his dehydrators somewhere, it burned stuff too. Just slowly.
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iPlug
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Re: Berkeley, CA becoming first city in U.S. to ban natural gas in new buildings

Mon Aug 26, 2019 6:42 pm

danrjones wrote:
Mon Aug 26, 2019 6:14 pm
I actually have used single burner portable inductive cooking for hotpot, etc. It's nice. But it doesnt put out the massive btus that gas does for cooking that I've seen. We replaced our gas stove about 5 years ago and the gas ranges all had higher BTU max burners than electric.
Perhaps, but you seem to stuck on old technology from many years ago.

No one is talking about portable induction cooking gizmos here. Those are puny 120V. We are talking about main appliances. Induction cooktops are built-in and 240V. They achieve high temperatures faster than gas and hotter than anything needed for cooking. One of the many really nice things about induction is that it instantaneously heats the pot/pan without energy lost to the surface or air, so much faster, much more precisely, more efficient, and hotter per unit energy output due to much fewer transfer losses. Any yes, plenty hot to roast vegetables this way if you like.
danrjones wrote:
Mon Aug 26, 2019 6:14 pm
I was not talking about heat pumps though, since someone asked.
It seems so, but that's what all these articles and the thread here are about.
danrjones wrote:
Mon Aug 26, 2019 6:14 pm
But that does raise a question- in cold areas heat pumps bottom out and emergency heating is needed.
Seems you're stuck in tech from many years ago. Modern air sourced heat pumps continue to run into the teens. We're talking about California here (population of a mere 40 million). >99% of Californians could switch to air sourced heat pumps based on their climate. All new systems come with emergency resistive backup. Although inefficient, most would never use it and if they did only for a tiny percent of their use.

That's another topic, but for new construction in colder climates, ground sourced heat pumps work very well. This is a problem we can tackle down the road. Air sourced heat pumps are lower hanging fruit ripe for picking right now.
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Re: Berkeley, CA becoming first city in U.S. to ban natural gas in new buildings

Mon Aug 26, 2019 6:51 pm

I don't want anyone to think I'm making light of a serious issue though.

But just look at it from a cost standpoint. During the summer my gas bill for my drier, stove and water heater is about $10.

Replacing them all plus my furnace? My drier has the 240 plug so that's just the cost of the unit. But my stove and my hot water are not wired for electric. Worse my breaker box is 100 amps. In CA that's another 2 plus grand to upgrade to 200 amps.

The furnace is even worse. I use a swamp cooler so it's a big job to put in a heat pump. The heat pump alone would be 6k plus ducting work. If I did it all it would probably be 15 to 20k with permits, etc. And I'd need a much bigger solar system.

That just won't work for most people. How is a teacher pulling down 35k in Kansas going to do that? Same problem with EVs.

At least with EVs the feds *could* offer a tax rebate for used EVs. Say 4k for families under 40k and 2.5k for famlies under 60k. Etc
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GRA
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Re: Berkeley, CA becoming first city in U.S. to ban natural gas in new buildings

Mon Aug 26, 2019 7:39 pm

iPlug wrote:
That's another topic, but for new construction in colder climates, ground sourced heat pumps work very well. This is a problem we can tackle down the road. Air sourced heat pumps are lower hanging fruit ripe for picking right now.

I have no personal experience, but from what I've read ground source heat pumps make it possible, depending on the rate at which heat is pulled from the ground (and replenished over the summer) to pull too much heat out of the ground. See https://www.withouthotair.com/c21/page_152.shtml and the following two pages.
Last edited by GRA on Mon Aug 26, 2019 7:52 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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iPlug
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Re: Berkeley, CA becoming first city in U.S. to ban natural gas in new buildings

Mon Aug 26, 2019 7:48 pm

danrjones wrote:
Mon Aug 26, 2019 6:51 pm
I don't want anyone to think I'm making light of a serious issue though.

But just look at it from a cost standpoint. During the summer my gas bill for my drier, stove and water heater is about $10.

Replacing them all plus my furnace? My drier has the 240 plug so that's just the cost of the unit. But my stove and my hot water are not wired for electric. Worse my breaker box is 100 amps. In CA that's another 2 plus grand to upgrade to 200 amps.

The furnace is even worse. I use a swamp cooler so it's a big job to put in a heat pump. The heat pump alone would be 6k plus ducting work. If I did it all it would probably be 15 to 20k with permits, etc. And I'd need a much bigger solar system.

That just won't work for most people. How is a teacher pulling down 35k in Kansas going to do that? Same problem with EVs.

At least with EVs the feds *could* offer a tax rebate for used EVs. Say 4k for families under 40k and 2.5k for famlies under 60k. Etc
Berkeley is only implementing this for new construction. There are municipalities in California that have some very generous incentives for replacing electric and gas appliances with heat pumps. Sacramento (SMUD) for example, will give up to $3k for material cost and installation for upgrading a gas water heater to a heat pump. That allows for an upgrade at no cost to the consumer.

GRA wrote:I have no personal experience, but from what I've read ground source heat pumps make it possible, depending on the rate at which heat is pulled from the ground
Yes, I had done lots of reading on this when I researched it for our home. Article does not mention if it is talking about horizontal or deep vertical wells. No problems in the suburbs with vertical wells even if everyone is doing it.
Last edited by iPlug on Mon Aug 26, 2019 7:54 pm, edited 2 times in total.
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Oilpan4
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Re: Berkeley, CA becoming first city in U.S. to ban natural gas in new buildings

Mon Aug 26, 2019 7:50 pm

Ha, good luck getting a panel and service up grade for around $2,000.
If they only charge around $2,000 I would be seriously worried.

Resistance heat is actually very efficient, nearly 100%. It's just crazy expensive compared to natural gas.

120v Inductive cookers run at say 12 amps, 1,440 watts, if the cooker could convert 100% of electricity to food cooking heat you could get 4,770BTU per hour. A small natural gas burner does more like 10,000btu per hour.
Inductive heaters are really only limited by power source and budget. Pumping say 10kw into something the size of a cast iron frying pan is easily within the capabilities of induction.

I like the simplicity of gas. I can buy a nice gas range a lot cheaper than an induction.
Plus gas still works when the power goes out.
Right now I have a cheap glass top non inductive electric range I will probably replace it with propane and connect it to its own 100lb tank.
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iPlug
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Re: Berkeley, CA becoming first city in U.S. to ban natural gas in new buildings

Mon Aug 26, 2019 8:12 pm

Oilpan4 wrote:
Mon Aug 26, 2019 7:50 pm
I can buy a nice gas range a lot cheaper than an induction.
Let's keep up with the times folks. That was true years ago, but has not been for some time now.

Our 5-burner 36" build-in induction range is better than most high end gas cooktops, and we got it for $800 several months ago. Entry level build-in induction ranges can be hand for a few hundred less. I pulled the old gas cooktop out myself and dropped in the induction cooktop. Cost me <$200 to have a 240V circuit run through our attic from a sub panel in our garage.

Recommend interested parties head over to homedepot.com and sort for induction cooktops by price if this was your impression.

Again, the articles are about new construction where 200A service panels have been the norm for many years. Berkeley and others are not insisting others upgrade. We are 100% electric at our home including our 2 BEVs and have "only" 200A service.
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danrjones
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Re: Berkeley, CA becoming first city in U.S. to ban natural gas in new buildings

Mon Aug 26, 2019 9:05 pm

And what does all that electricity cost?

Again my summer bill for gas is $10!
That's for cooking, drying clothes and hot water.

I know for a fact people in my area can hit $300 to $400 a month electric bills for cooling this time of year.

Sure, I can offset all the electricity with more solar. Solar installers here are charging about $3 watt. So to add another 6 KW DC is another 18 grand. Not including all the other stuff (panel, dryer, range, water heater, heat pump)

This falls under the cut your foot off to treat a hang nail. Not happening.


I do understand the concern about natural gas. But considering many areas still burn coal, and gas is a lot cleaner than coal, it seems like coal should be the first target.

Has Europe committed to getting off Russian gas?
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