Nubo
Well-known member
danrjones said:
I've had pretty good luck cutting in half and using a cast iron pan. Or two pans, by laying a heated pan on top to help flatten for maximum contact.
Berkeley, CA becoming first city in U.S. to ban natural gas in new buildings
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I've had pretty good luck cutting in half and using a cast iron pan. Or two pans, by laying a heated pan on top to help flatten for maximum contact.
danrjones
Well-known member
LeftieBiker said:
Lol
I'm pretty sure me cooking with electricity isnt going to save the world. The world, and the USA, has much bigger problems, such as our lousy health care system.
I actually have used single burner portable inductive cooking for hotpot, etc. It's nice. But it doesnt put out the massive btus that gas does for cooking that I've seen. We replaced our gas stove about 5 years ago and the gas ranges all had higher BTU max burners than electric.
I was not talking about heat pumps though, since someone asked. But that does raise a question- in cold areas heat pumps bottom out and emergency heating is needed. Gas, oil or resistive electric. Resistive electric is very inefficient. Sure a ground system is nice but its pricey. Gas is cheap. Like it or not, money matters.
Maybe someday gas can go but right now my guess is most of the country will view that in the same light as uber liberals banning bbqs. Or soda. It will just create more push back on a serious issue with little real benefit. Just my 2 cents.
danrjones
Well-known member
Nubo said:
Or you can just use fire. I know, it's almost too simple. If Ron Popeil was around I'm sure he could invent a pepper roaster for you.
Actually I have one of his dehydrators somewhere, it burned stuff too. Just slowly.
iPlug
Well-known member
Perhaps, but you seem to stuck on old technology from many years ago.danrjones said:
No one is talking about portable induction cooking gizmos here. Those are puny 120V. We are talking about main appliances. Induction cooktops are built-in and 240V. They achieve high temperatures faster than gas and hotter than anything needed for cooking. One of the many really nice things about induction is that it instantaneously heats the pot/pan without energy lost to the surface or air, so much faster, much more precisely, more efficient, and hotter per unit energy output due to much fewer transfer losses. Any yes, plenty hot to roast vegetables this way if you like.
It seems so, but that's what all these articles and the thread here are about.danrjones said:
Seems you're stuck in tech from many years ago. Modern air sourced heat pumps continue to run into the teens. We're talking about California here (population of a mere 40 million). >99% of Californians could switch to air sourced heat pumps based on their climate. All new systems come with emergency resistive backup. Although inefficient, most would never use it and if they did only for a tiny percent of their use.danrjones said:
That's another topic, but for new construction in colder climates, ground sourced heat pumps work very well. This is a problem we can tackle down the road. Air sourced heat pumps are lower hanging fruit ripe for picking right now.
danrjones
Well-known member
I don't want anyone to think I'm making light of a serious issue though.
But just look at it from a cost standpoint. During the summer my gas bill for my drier, stove and water heater is about $10.
Replacing them all plus my furnace? My drier has the 240 plug so that's just the cost of the unit. But my stove and my hot water are not wired for electric. Worse my breaker box is 100 amps. In CA that's another 2 plus grand to upgrade to 200 amps.
The furnace is even worse. I use a swamp cooler so it's a big job to put in a heat pump. The heat pump alone would be 6k plus ducting work. If I did it all it would probably be 15 to 20k with permits, etc. And I'd need a much bigger solar system.
That just won't work for most people. How is a teacher pulling down 35k in Kansas going to do that? Same problem with EVs.
At least with EVs the feds *could* offer a tax rebate for used EVs. Say 4k for families under 40k and 2.5k for famlies under 60k. Etc
But just look at it from a cost standpoint. During the summer my gas bill for my drier, stove and water heater is about $10.
Replacing them all plus my furnace? My drier has the 240 plug so that's just the cost of the unit. But my stove and my hot water are not wired for electric. Worse my breaker box is 100 amps. In CA that's another 2 plus grand to upgrade to 200 amps.
The furnace is even worse. I use a swamp cooler so it's a big job to put in a heat pump. The heat pump alone would be 6k plus ducting work. If I did it all it would probably be 15 to 20k with permits, etc. And I'd need a much bigger solar system.
That just won't work for most people. How is a teacher pulling down 35k in Kansas going to do that? Same problem with EVs.
At least with EVs the feds *could* offer a tax rebate for used EVs. Say 4k for families under 40k and 2.5k for famlies under 60k. Etc
GRA
Well-known member
iPlug said:
I have no personal experience, but from what I've read ground source heat pumps make it possible, depending on the rate at which heat is pulled from the ground (and replenished over the summer) to pull too much heat out of the ground. See https://www.withouthotair.com/c21/page_152.shtml and the following two pages.
iPlug
Well-known member
Berkeley is only implementing this for new construction. There are municipalities in California that have some very generous incentives for replacing electric and gas appliances with heat pumps. Sacramento (SMUD) for example, will give up to $3k for material cost and installation for upgrading a gas water heater to a heat pump. That allows for an upgrade at no cost to the consumer.danrjones said:
Yes, I had done lots of reading on this when I researched it for our home. Article does not mention if it is talking about horizontal or deep vertical wells. No problems in the suburbs with vertical wells even if everyone is doing it.GRA said:
Ha, good luck getting a panel and service up grade for around $2,000.
If they only charge around $2,000 I would be seriously worried.
Resistance heat is actually very efficient, nearly 100%. It's just crazy expensive compared to natural gas.
120v Inductive cookers run at say 12 amps, 1,440 watts, if the cooker could convert 100% of electricity to food cooking heat you could get 4,770BTU per hour. A small natural gas burner does more like 10,000btu per hour.
Inductive heaters are really only limited by power source and budget. Pumping say 10kw into something the size of a cast iron frying pan is easily within the capabilities of induction.
I like the simplicity of gas. I can buy a nice gas range a lot cheaper than an induction.
Plus gas still works when the power goes out.
Right now I have a cheap glass top non inductive electric range I will probably replace it with propane and connect it to its own 100lb tank.
If they only charge around $2,000 I would be seriously worried.
Resistance heat is actually very efficient, nearly 100%. It's just crazy expensive compared to natural gas.
120v Inductive cookers run at say 12 amps, 1,440 watts, if the cooker could convert 100% of electricity to food cooking heat you could get 4,770BTU per hour. A small natural gas burner does more like 10,000btu per hour.
Inductive heaters are really only limited by power source and budget. Pumping say 10kw into something the size of a cast iron frying pan is easily within the capabilities of induction.
I like the simplicity of gas. I can buy a nice gas range a lot cheaper than an induction.
Plus gas still works when the power goes out.
Right now I have a cheap glass top non inductive electric range I will probably replace it with propane and connect it to its own 100lb tank.
iPlug
Well-known member
Oilpan4 said:
Let's keep up with the times folks. That was true years ago, but has not been for some time now.
Our 5-burner 36" build-in induction range is better than most high end gas cooktops, and we got it for $800 several months ago. Entry level build-in induction ranges can be hand for a few hundred less. I pulled the old gas cooktop out myself and dropped in the induction cooktop. Cost me <$200 to have a 240V circuit run through our attic from a sub panel in our garage.
Recommend interested parties head over to homedepot.com and sort for induction cooktops by price if this was your impression.
Again, the articles are about new construction where 200A service panels have been the norm for many years. Berkeley and others are not insisting others upgrade. We are 100% electric at our home including our 2 BEVs and have "only" 200A service.
danrjones
Well-known member
And what does all that electricity cost?
Again my summer bill for gas is $10!
That's for cooking, drying clothes and hot water.
I know for a fact people in my area can hit $300 to $400 a month electric bills for cooling this time of year.
Sure, I can offset all the electricity with more solar. Solar installers here are charging about $3 watt. So to add another 6 KW DC is another 18 grand. Not including all the other stuff (panel, dryer, range, water heater, heat pump)
This falls under the cut your foot off to treat a hang nail. Not happening.
I do understand the concern about natural gas. But considering many areas still burn coal, and gas is a lot cleaner than coal, it seems like coal should be the first target.
Has Europe committed to getting off Russian gas?
Again my summer bill for gas is $10!
That's for cooking, drying clothes and hot water.
I know for a fact people in my area can hit $300 to $400 a month electric bills for cooling this time of year.
Sure, I can offset all the electricity with more solar. Solar installers here are charging about $3 watt. So to add another 6 KW DC is another 18 grand. Not including all the other stuff (panel, dryer, range, water heater, heat pump)
This falls under the cut your foot off to treat a hang nail. Not happening.
I do understand the concern about natural gas. But considering many areas still burn coal, and gas is a lot cleaner than coal, it seems like coal should be the first target.
Has Europe committed to getting off Russian gas?
And that, in short, is how we got here, at the Beginning of the End.
danrjones
Well-known member
LeftieBiker said:
Yeah maybe but one thing I learned as an engineer is that you can't just have technically feasible solutions but solutions that are logstically feasible, as well as affordable.
Europeans would love to get off gas simply because it would free up political options in dealing with Russia. But that gas is the only affordable means that keeps them from freezing.
Nubo
Well-known member
danrjones said:
Set it and forget it!
Electric stovetop, but if I wanted to roast a whole unsliced pepper for some reason I suppose I could use our propane camp stove. Or maybe head outside with a big fresnel lens :mrgreen:
Usually I'm just looking to add to soups or stews or make sauce and the cast iron does a good job without having to heat up the oven. Cast Iron works well in general to mitigate the annoyances of resistance stovetops. helps spread the heat and buffers against the on/off cycling.
My wife will not allow builder grade or entry level and she likes gas.
I take gas over electric just on account of it working when there is a power outage.
Nothing wrong with natural gas. We got no shortage of people on here that use it for home heating.
Unless you are off grid everyone uses natural gas power to charge their cars.
I take gas over electric just on account of it working when there is a power outage.
danrjones said:
Nothing wrong with natural gas. We got no shortage of people on here that use it for home heating.
Unless you are off grid everyone uses natural gas power to charge their cars.
danrjones said:
If you are looking for critical thinking, logical discussion and reasonable compromise you came to the wrong place.
Actually I'm surprised our resident natural gas using troll hasn't chimed in and called you stupid for trying to be reasonable and accused you of being a environment hating repuke, or something juvenile such as that.
danrjones
Well-known member
Oilpan4 said:
LOL
I'm in neither party, and refuse to join. I understand the intent, but natural gas is fairly clean and money does matter. There are just far bigger issues to expend political capital on than trying to get everyone off natural gas, which would simply cause push-back by the masses and even less would get done.
The point I was making is that solutions are great, but people on the left (or right) must understand that to be practical, people have to be able to afford them. While I actually COULD afford to spend 30-40k to overhaul my house and add more solar, I think the reactions from my wife would go like this:
"You want to spend 40k of our savings / retirement to save $10 a month in gas? You say it will save the world? You are an idiot. I want a divorce."
I don't have gas just because out on the coop it's $25 a month and my house was never set up for natural gas.
To make that $25 a month gas surcharge worth it I would really need to convert over to gas heat to make it worth the install. Then gas water heater, range and gas dryer to get some use out of that $25 per month that will make up about the vast majority the summer time gas bill.
Heat pump dryers are stupid. They are stupid expensive starting at $800 and $900 for the cheapest 2, ridiculously slow, they get plugged up with dryer lint, the heat pump system is very expensive to repair, they are tiny, typically 4 cubic feet in capacity where standard gas and electric dryers are around double that and they don't appear to save enough electricity to make them worth all the trouble. The ones I looked at still required 240v power.
It looks like you have to be willing to periodically take it apart and blow it out with compressed air every so often, based on a YouTube video where a guy got a like new almost free heat pump dryer and got it going again after a good hard cleaning.
Heat pump water heaters are another one. When they break plumbers don't know how to work on heat pumps and most hvac guys don't know how to work or don't want to work on a hot water heater. I have an etech add on heat pump hot water heater and love it, helps air condition the house a little during the summer.
But I wouldn't buy a premade unit starting at $850.
When my little etech quits and I can't fix it I just close 2 valves, unhook the water, unplug it from its power supply, plug in the range cord attached to my hot water heater returning it to normal resistance heating operation and take the etech unit to my favorite local hvac shop.
Some one said "induction ranges aren't more expensive than gas" and that is total BS. On Lowe's when I search induction ranges the cheapest 2 are $999 and $1,040. If you don't like either of those to the 3rd cheapest is $2,000.
The oven in an induction range is no different than the oven in a standard electric range so no efficiency gains there.
With gas ranges I see 7 under $500.
Right now everything is on sale too so those numbers are subject to change.
To make that $25 a month gas surcharge worth it I would really need to convert over to gas heat to make it worth the install. Then gas water heater, range and gas dryer to get some use out of that $25 per month that will make up about the vast majority the summer time gas bill.
Heat pump dryers are stupid. They are stupid expensive starting at $800 and $900 for the cheapest 2, ridiculously slow, they get plugged up with dryer lint, the heat pump system is very expensive to repair, they are tiny, typically 4 cubic feet in capacity where standard gas and electric dryers are around double that and they don't appear to save enough electricity to make them worth all the trouble. The ones I looked at still required 240v power.
It looks like you have to be willing to periodically take it apart and blow it out with compressed air every so often, based on a YouTube video where a guy got a like new almost free heat pump dryer and got it going again after a good hard cleaning.
Heat pump water heaters are another one. When they break plumbers don't know how to work on heat pumps and most hvac guys don't know how to work or don't want to work on a hot water heater. I have an etech add on heat pump hot water heater and love it, helps air condition the house a little during the summer.
But I wouldn't buy a premade unit starting at $850.
When my little etech quits and I can't fix it I just close 2 valves, unhook the water, unplug it from its power supply, plug in the range cord attached to my hot water heater returning it to normal resistance heating operation and take the etech unit to my favorite local hvac shop.
Some one said "induction ranges aren't more expensive than gas" and that is total BS. On Lowe's when I search induction ranges the cheapest 2 are $999 and $1,040. If you don't like either of those to the 3rd cheapest is $2,000.
The oven in an induction range is no different than the oven in a standard electric range so no efficiency gains there.
With gas ranges I see 7 under $500.
Right now everything is on sale too so those numbers are subject to change.
iPlug
Well-known member
You continue to dispense purposefully false information and the fact that you did not bother to report that my references above refuted your lies shows your continued disservice to the new folks here who aren't yet wise to your childish games and agendas. One more time, go back and read again, "Recommend interested parties head over to homedepot.com and sort for induction cooktops by price if this was your impression."Oilpan4 said:
Too many incessant false items from you to be worthy of anyones time, but let's just address this one further since you were not capable of going to the website above and reporting that it completely disproved your misinformation:
$297
https://www.homedepot.com/p/True-In...p-Vertical-Orientation-Black-TI-2BN/306165033
$370
https://www.homedepot.com/p/Empava-...-Elements-Booster-Burner-EMPV-IDC30/309421162
$590
https://www.homedepot.com/p/Ancona-...g-Individual-Boost-Function-AN-2412/302454308
$809 (the one we bought and better than the nicest gas cooktop costing $1k+ more)
https://www.homedepot.com/p/Frigida...in-Black-with-5-Elements-FFIC3626TB/304289285
All can be ordered online as we did.
SageBrush would likely be described by most here for his perpetual grouchiness, but he is no fool and does have you pegged correctly. Maybe he would be a little less angry if you would cease spreading knowingly false information.
Please spare danrjones your intentional fiction. He at least shows some interest in learning here even if he does not have all the means to pick high hanging fruit.
danrjones
Well-known member
I don't want to get between you two, but those examples are cook-tops. I for one was talking about RANGES.
A range is usually defined as a freestanding unit that includes an oven.
I know I live in the sticks but our home depot, as of three days ago, had no cheap induction ranges that I saw.
I like gas for cooking. But YMMV.
Anyway, I'm not spending 40 grand to convert my house, that's for sure.
A range is usually defined as a freestanding unit that includes an oven.
I know I live in the sticks but our home depot, as of three days ago, had no cheap induction ranges that I saw.
I like gas for cooking. But YMMV.
Anyway, I'm not spending 40 grand to convert my house, that's for sure.
iPlug
Well-known member
Yes, these are cook-tops because that was what I was discussing and what I claimed and because Oilpan went off on a purposefully misleading and still inaccurate direction. Induction cooktops are unquestionably NOT more expensive than gas cooktops.
There is no problem talking about ranges as well, especially if that was what you would have to replace if you were thinking so. However, those too are not more expensive than gas equivalents, for example:
$898 (the induction elements here will outperform most gas cooktops)
https://www.homedepot.com/p/Frigida...-Oven-in-Stainless-Steel-FFIF3054TS/302939756
There is no problem talking about ranges as well, especially if that was what you would have to replace if you were thinking so. However, those too are not more expensive than gas equivalents, for example:
$898 (the induction elements here will outperform most gas cooktops)
https://www.homedepot.com/p/Frigida...-Oven-in-Stainless-Steel-FFIF3054TS/302939756
