Chademo Getting a Boost Mode

webeleafowners said:

danrjones said:

DougWantsALeaf said:

Even 73-74 feels a good step faster than the 44 you usually get from the older Chademos.

Guess we need the new EVGo stations up to see if the Leaf can do better.

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Doesn't EA bump their $ rate up at 75 KW, so if you touch 75 for even a few seconds, you bump into the next cost tier?

So ideally you want to stay at 74 or bellow. It would suck to get charged the higher rate for charging briefly at 76 KW

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Speaking of which. One of the folks on Facebook reported 76 Kw (and an apparent screen shot) on a new 2019 Eplus at one of the new BC hydro Chademo s. I don’t think they are charging for it yet as they usually don’t charge for the first 6 months in operation. Debugging?

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It sure would be nice if Nissan gave you a way to set a charge rate limit, such as 70 KW max, along with the missing charge % limit. Seems like turning off the charging at a certain % would be easy, since they can turn it off with a timer. Not sure about limiting Fast Charge though to a certain KW?

I don’t think Chademo ever goes to the next cost level, as it’s stated as 50.

At the faster EA station I was still above 60 at 50% SOC.

DougWantsALeaf said:

I don’t think Chademo ever goes to the next cost level, as it’s stated as 50.

At the faster EA station I was still above 60 at 50% SOC.

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What was the sticker (50kW, etc) on the faster station?

What was your battery temps?

NotATesla said:

DaveinOlyWA said:

NotATesla said:

The Nissan Leaf + is supposed to take 100kW. Otherwise why would their website say:
45 MINUTES
62 kWh BATTERY 80% CHARGE: [*]
100 kWh DC QUICK CHARGE (clearly they meant kW here :roll: )

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Even that example doesn't equate to 100 KW. You are getting what? Maybe 45 kwh in 45 mins. That is 60 kw. Figure in the inevitable ramp down and its still nowhere near 100 kw.

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kW is the rate of charge which can reach 100kW for the Nissan Leaf + at peak. I am not suggesting that the car will charge at 100kW or average 100kW for the duration of the charging session.

The max charge rate we have seen for our car is 74kW at an Electrify America station. The sticker on it stated 50kW but peak was higher than this and averaged higher for 15 minute charge session.

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200 Amp max. I leave the rest of the arithmetic to you

SageBrush said:

NotATesla said:

DaveinOlyWA said:

Even that example doesn't equate to 100 KW. You are getting what? Maybe 45 kwh in 45 mins. That is 60 kw. Figure in the inevitable ramp down and its still nowhere near 100 kw.

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kW is the rate of charge which can reach 100kW for the Nissan Leaf + at peak. I am not suggesting that the car will charge at 100kW or average 100kW for the duration of the charging session.

The max charge rate we have seen for our car is 74kW at an Electrify America station. The sticker on it stated 50kW but peak was higher than this and averaged higher for 15 minute charge session.

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200 Amp max. I leave the rest of the arithmetic to you

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What is setting the 200 amp max? Chademo 2.0 supports 400 amp.

Trying to understand why 100kW peak isn't possible?

NotATesla said:

SageBrush said:

NotATesla said:

kW is the rate of charge which can reach 100kW for the Nissan Leaf + at peak. I am not suggesting that the car will charge at 100kW or average 100kW for the duration of the charging session.

The max charge rate we have seen for our car is 74kW at an Electrify America station. The sticker on it stated 50kW but peak was higher than this and averaged higher for 15 minute charge session.

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200 Amp max. I leave the rest of the arithmetic to you

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What is setting the 200 amp max? Chademo 2.0 supports 400 amp.

Trying to understand why 100kW peak isn't possible?

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Charging power is always the lesser of:

1. Charger maximum of amperage and voltage. For EA, I think it is 500 Amps and 700 volts (not sure)
2. Protocol maximum
3. Cable maximum. At EA, 200 Amps for CHAdeMO, I think 400 Amps for the CCS cable. EA currently derates CHAdeMO to 100 Amps pending resolution of problems at higher rates.
4. Car electronics maximum. New LEAF, 200 Amps. Old LEAF, 125 Amps
5. Car Amperage maximum by cell voltage. Amperage tapers down after ~ 3.75 volts

SageBrush said:

NotATesla said:

SageBrush said:

200 Amp max. I leave the rest of the arithmetic to you

Click to expand...

What is setting the 200 amp max? Chademo 2.0 supports 400 amp.

Trying to understand why 100kW peak isn't possible?

Click to expand...

Charging power is always the lesser of:

1. Charger maximum of amperage and voltage. For EA, I think it is 500 Amps and 700 volts (not sure)
2. Protocol maximum
3. Cable maximum. At EA, 200 Amps for CHAdeMO, I think 400 Amps for the CCS cable. EA currently derates CHAdeMO to 100 Amps pending resolution of problems at higher rates.
4. Car electronics maximum. New LEAF, 200 Amps. Old LEAF, 125 Amps
5. Car Amperage maximum by cell voltage. Amperage tapers down after ~ 3.75 volts

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All of this I understand. For #3 that doesn't mean charging above 200 amps isn't possible, it just means you can't do it at the provided EA chargers.

What I didn't know is #4, where did you learn this information? I haven't seen a limit of 200 amps for the leaf posted anywhere.

danrjones said:

DougWantsALeaf said:

Even 73-74 feels a good step faster than the 44 you usually get from the older Chademos.

Guess we need the new EVGo stations up to see if the Leaf can do better.

Click to expand...

Doesn't EA bump their $ rate up at 75 KW, so if you touch 75 for even a few seconds, you bump into the next cost tier?

So ideally you want to stay at 74 or bellow. It would suck to get charged the higher rate for charging briefly at 76 KW

Click to expand...

The rate is based on the station you plug into. 50 KW will never charge the higher rate no matter how fast you charge. Conversely, you plug into a 150 KW station with a 100 KW car that whose SOC is past the knee and you never get more than 40 kw, you will still be charged the higher rate.

DaveinOlyWA said:

Conversely, you plug into a 150 KW station with a 100 KW car that whose SOC is past the knee and you never get more than 40 kw, you will still be charged the higher rate.

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Are you sure, as in proven by experience ?

DaveinOlyWA said:

danrjones said:

DougWantsALeaf said:

Even 73-74 feels a good step faster than the 44 you usually get from the older Chademos.

Guess we need the new EVGo stations up to see if the Leaf can do better.

Click to expand...

Doesn't EA bump their $ rate up at 75 KW, so if you touch 75 for even a few seconds, you bump into the next cost tier?

So ideally you want to stay at 74 or bellow. It would suck to get charged the higher rate for charging briefly at 76 KW

Click to expand...

The rate is based on the station you plug into. 50 KW will never charge the higher rate no matter how fast you charge. Conversely, you plug into a 150 KW station with a 100 KW car that whose SOC is past the knee and you never get more than 40 kw, you will still be charged the higher rate.

Click to expand...

So if you plugged a 50 kW CCS into one of the 150 or even 350 kW plugs, and never drew more than a peak of 50 kW, you get charged at a higher rate? That's not what I expected.

On their website they say "Our DC fast charging stations have a range of 50kW, 150kW, and 350kW chargers. These kW values refer to the maximum power each charger can provide"

For CA, their rate plans are listed at 75 or less, 125 or less and 350 or less.

So to hit 75, wouldn't you "theoretically" have to use the 150kW charger?

Sorry, something just doesn't make sense.

I have read before from EA that the tariff is set by the power going to the car. That still leaves a lot of uncertainty but it contradicts @DaveInOly

Here is the EA verbiage

Electrify America’s charging costs are by the minute. These per-minute costs are dependent on your location and the power level in which your car is placed at the beginning of the charging session. This new pricing structure is called power level pricing.

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And Electrek from June:

Electrify America’s new pricing structure is based on three power levels: 0-75 kW, 76kW-125 kW, and 126kW-350kW. The charging network notes that pricing is by the minute, and the per-minute costs will be determined both by the power level the car is capable of charging at, and the state where the charger is located.

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I find it amusing that so far I cannot find pricing experiences over 75 kW at EA. Says something about the state of charging in the non-Tesla world. Personally, I'm looking forward to 250 kW at a V3 Tesla Supercharger

If you look a couple minutes into this video, it looks like he able to maintain over 60 kilowatt charging speed beyond 80%.

Hopefully the new EVGo 100 KW chargers here come online soon.

https://youtu.be/fNs9J5CoXVo

DougWantsALeaf said:

If you look a couple minutes into this video, it looks like he able to maintain over 60 kilowatt charging speed beyond 80%.

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Are we looking at the same video ? I see 46 kW (127 Amps) at 40% SOC

SageBrush said:

DaveinOlyWA said:

Conversely, you plug into a 150 KW station with a 100 KW car that whose SOC is past the knee and you never get more than 40 kw, you will still be charged the higher rate.

Click to expand...

Are you sure, as in proven by experience ?

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Check the Kona pages on FB. The posts are all over the place with people saying this.

danrjones said:

DaveinOlyWA said:

danrjones said:

Doesn't EA bump their $ rate up at 75 KW, so if you touch 75 for even a few seconds, you bump into the next cost tier?

So ideally you want to stay at 74 or bellow. It would suck to get charged the higher rate for charging briefly at 76 KW

Click to expand...

The rate is based on the station you plug into. 50 KW will never charge the higher rate no matter how fast you charge. Conversely, you plug into a 150 KW station with a 100 KW car that whose SOC is past the knee and you never get more than 40 kw, you will still be charged the higher rate.

Click to expand...

So if you plugged a 50 kW CCS into one of the 150 or even 350 kW plugs, and never drew more than a peak of 50 kW, you get charged at a higher rate? That's not what I expected.

On their website they say "Our DC fast charging stations have a range of 50kW, 150kW, and 350kW chargers. These kW values refer to the maximum power each charger can provide"

For CA, their rate plans are listed at 75 or less, 125 or less and 350 or less.

So to hit 75, wouldn't you "theoretically" have to use the 150kW charger?

Sorry, something just doesn't make sense.

Click to expand...

Its also not what I said. If your car can't charge faster than 75 KW, it doesn't matter which plug you use. If your car "can" charge at 75+KW under the right circumstances, then you will be charged that rate if you use the higher rated station.

Have seen several reports of vehicles, mostly Kona's getting billed the higher rate despite not actually attaining more than 75 KW even briefly. Now we can hardly say that EA's billing has launched w/o hitches and this is something that may have been addressed but there were several reports of this.

As far at EA charging summaries; there have also been several people reporting that EA claimed a much higher peak charging rate than they actually received.

DaveinOlyWA said:

Its also not what I said. If your car can't charge faster than 75 KW, it doesn't matter which plug you use. If your car "can" charge at 75+KW under the right circumstances, then you will be charged that rate if you use the higher rated station.

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.
I'm more than a little skeptical.

I'm interested in the Kona reports but I avoid FB like the plague. Perhaps the explanation for the anecdotes is that EA is pricing by the peak electrical load rather than the power to the car. Find a report of a car that took in no higher than say 65 kW and was charged the 75+ tier and I'll reconsider my opinion. Or, as you say, it is a simple glitch

SageBrush said:

DaveinOlyWA said:

Its also not what I said. If your car can't charge faster than 75 KW, it doesn't matter which plug you use. If your car "can" charge at 75+KW under the right circumstances, then you will be charged that rate if you use the higher rated station.

Click to expand...

.
I'm more than a little skeptical.

I'm interested in the Kona reports but I avoid FB like the plague. Perhaps the explanation for the anecdotes is that EA is pricing by the peak electrical load rather than the power to the car.

Click to expand...

Well, that would support one of the quotes you posted. I get that ideology since EA does not control charge curve or ramp down, but imm, a reputable company would realize when the charge was complete that 75 KW was never achieved and should say "Your bill has been adjusted to reflect the level of service you received" and there are reports that some people did get refunds so maybe an issue they are working?

DaveinOlyWA said:

SageBrush said:

DaveinOlyWA said:

Its also not what I said. If your car can't charge faster than 75 KW, it doesn't matter which plug you use. If your car "can" charge at 75+KW under the right circumstances, then you will be charged that rate if you use the higher rated station.

Click to expand...

.
I'm more than a little skeptical.

I'm interested in the Kona reports but I avoid FB like the plague. Perhaps the explanation for the anecdotes is that EA is pricing by the peak electrical load rather than the power to the car.

Click to expand...

Well, that would support one of the quotes you posted. I get that ideology since EA does not control charge curve or ramp down, but imm, a reputable company would realize when the charge was complete that 75 KW was never achieved and should say "Your bill has been adjusted to reflect the level of service you received" and there are reports that some people did get refunds so maybe an issue they are working?

Click to expand...

.
So far as I know, the handshake between the charger and the car is:
"How much power do you want?"
And never
"What is your theoretical peak power ?"

How *close* were the Kona anecdotes to 75 kW ? Do you have an anecdote of a Kona never going above say 60 kW yet being charged in the 75 - 125 kW tier ? An easy test would be for a Kona to show up at an EA station with 90% SoC and charge for a minute.

It DOES sound like 200 Amp cars are going to get killed on pricing at EA stations, particularly the ~ 40 kWh models that tend to charge well into the taper. The work-around is going to be to start a new charging session once the power delivery goes below the expensive tier. Just call it the LEAF and Kia tax

DaveinOlyWA said:

I get that ideology since EA does not control charge curve or ramp down, but imm, a reputable company would realize when the charge was complete that 75 KW was never achieved and should say "Your bill has been adjusted to reflect the level of service you received" and there are reports that some people did get refunds so maybe an issue they are working?

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That is not what I am saying. EA has a pricing scheme that passes demand charges on to the consumer. Perhaps power is charged at the meter, not power into the car.

That's my guess, that at start of charge, the car tells the charger what the max rate it can take, and that sets the pricing.

Except for the Chademo's those are baked in at the lowest pricing tier, which I am completely ok with paying. at .18-.25 minute (or for 0-60% SOC about 1 KW per minute) , while above my home price by a few cents, for the few times I have needed it, happy to pay the premium.