June update. 342 GID's 75.04AH SOH=94.42% Hx=81.67% 62347 total mi. 117418 mi on new battery. 15 DCFC and 331 l2 charges on the new battery. The new battery continues to do better than the old one but May was exceptionally wet and cool. June is still relatively cool so far this year but the battery is holding up better than I expected. I'm down 6% from new in just under a year and at this rate the car will meet my needs for 3 more years but I'll probably sell or trade it in after I hit 100K. I've learned that 30 KWH Is more than adequate for my normal daily use but that 24 KWH is marginal and 20 KWH means an extra charge most days (5-10 KWH somewhere just to make sure I can make it home with some reserve). I'm sure that having to charge every day takes a toll on the battery even if it's mostly L2 charging. My next car is going to need to have at least 50-60 KWH and 250 mile range or better. If I could get 300 miles of range then I could charge to 80% and drive for 3 days between charges.
2016 30 kWh Battery data
- Thread starter Turbo3
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WetEV
Well-known member
johnlocke said:
The first 5% loss is usually faster than later loss.
Aug update. 337 GID's 73.81AH SOH=92.87% Hx=78.57% 65250 total mi. 20321 mi on new battery. 17 DCFC and 387 l2 charges on the new battery. The new battery is still doing better than the first one. I'm down 7% from new in just over 13 months. That would put me down around 20% at 100K miles and 2 1/2 more years of operation. I would expect this battery to last about 5 years before it hits 8 bars. Although the range is adequate for now, I just put new tires on and took a small hit in mileage (5%). Doesn't seem like much but it adds up and cuts the range by 4-5 miles overall. I get uncomfortable when I have to run extra errands. I just need a bigger battery overall or one that doesn't degrade over time. 80% of original capacity is about as low as I can practically use without resorting to DCFC a couple of times a week while out in town. My expectation at this point is that I'll trade the Leaf in a couple of years for something with more range and better electronics.
Sept update. 333 GID's 72.97AH SOH=91.82% Hx=76.52% 66772 total mi. 24843 mi on new battery. 18 DCFC and 416 l2 charges on the new battery. The new battery is still doing better than the first one. I'm down just over 8% from new in just over 14 months. That still puts me down around 20% at 100K miles and 2 more years of operation. This battery may last 4 more years before it hits 8 bars. Range is adequate for now but I get uncomfortable when I have to run extra errands. I find that I'm hitting the low battery warning once or twice a month now. At 80% usable capacity that's going to be happening every other day and I'll be hitting the chargers out in town regularly.
Oct update. 326 GID's 71.24AH, SOH=89.63%, Hx=71.99%, 68500 total mi. 23571 mi on new battery. 18 DCFC and 450 l2 charges on the new battery. Okay, the good news is that the new battery is holding up better than the old one, the bad news is that it's not a whole lot better. I have 15 months use on the new battery and am down by 10%. The old battery was down 10% after just 10 months of use and was down by 14% at 15 months. The cumulative mileage on both batteries was similar so my usage habits haven't changed. As it stands now I expect to be able to get 70000-80000 miles out of this battery before it hits 8 bars. That puts the car over the warranty limit so no third battery for me. Current trade-in value is around $7K according to several dealers so there's no point in buying a new battery. I might be able to get $10K from a private sale but still not much better.
I've looked at a Tesla III and at a Nissan Leaf +. Top end Leaf SV+ is pretty similar to a Standard + III and the costs are similar. The Leaf gets a bigger Rebate but there's no TMS and DCFC problems. The Leaf fits like an old shoe and I feel very comfortable in it but the battery worries me. The III is all whizzbang and sleek. It's a different idea of what a car is or could be. I find that I'm not entirely comfortable with just a touch screen. I like it mechanically and I might be able to get used to the lack of physical controls. Problem is neither car wows me and makes me say "I got to have one". The VW ID 4 is still a year out and I don't know if I want to wait for it.
I've looked at a Tesla III and at a Nissan Leaf +. Top end Leaf SV+ is pretty similar to a Standard + III and the costs are similar. The Leaf gets a bigger Rebate but there's no TMS and DCFC problems. The Leaf fits like an old shoe and I feel very comfortable in it but the battery worries me. The III is all whizzbang and sleek. It's a different idea of what a car is or could be. I find that I'm not entirely comfortable with just a touch screen. I like it mechanically and I might be able to get used to the lack of physical controls. Problem is neither car wows me and makes me say "I got to have one". The VW ID 4 is still a year out and I don't know if I want to wait for it.
jlv
Well-known member
FWIW, it's a Model 3, not a "III".johnlocke said:
webeleafowners
Well-known member
johnlocke said:
We went thru the same decision process. We loved our model 3 test drives and we spent over three hours in the car. Truly impressive. At the end of the day we wrote it out and went with the leaf. The model 3 has a lot going for it but personal needs won out. Here’s our list.
Nissan over Tesla.
- Hatchback
- Easier ingress and egress.
- Heated steering wheel for sore 56 year old hands
- Homelink standard. (Not really important for us)
- Heat pump so less energy use in mildly cold temps...like where we live in BC.
- E-Pedal. (One of our favourite things about the Leaf.
- all around 360 view camera display
- pretty much no vampire drain. Important for us as we leave the country for a month or more at a time without being able to plug in.
- rear cross traffic alert avoidance system.
- much quieter than the model 3.
- local service
Oils4AsphaultOnly
Well-known member
webeleafowners said:
Those are all good solid reasons. But since you live in BC, you'll never come close to see the battery degradation that johnlocke has painstakingly documented. An EV without some sort of thermal management system just isn't going to work for him.
Oils4AsphaultOnly said:
In the end as much as I like the Leaf I have to rule it out. The lack of TMS for the battery is the killer. Slow multiple fast charges aren't really a problem as I probably won't use the car for cross country trips. The larger battery means fewer charges for a given distance and a good chance that the battery sits at 40 to 70% most of the time rather than fully charged waiting for the next trip. Even so, I still worry about battery life and a lease is nearly as much as buying outright with the mileage I put on a car. With the 62 KWH battery, I'm pretty sure I'd make it past 100K and the warranty but I 'm not sure about how much further it would go. I usually drive a car for 200,000+ miles before I get a new one and I just don't think the Leaf is capable of that. It would still run but the degradation of the battery toward the end would be terrible. Nissan won't sell me an upgraded battery or provide a reasonable cost replacement either so when the battery goes you have to junk the car. Resale value is terrible too.
The Model 3 solves my concerns about the battery, promises to last longer than I'm likely to drive it, and has good resale value as well. I can update the software and even add features like FSD later if I want to. It's not a hatchback though and I'm not in love with the control system. Since I'm getting older, there may come a time when FSD is something I need or just want. I can upgrade the Model 3 but the Leaf doesn't even have the option for that. Tesla has already stated that the battery will be repairable and I expect that it will be able to be upgraded (at some additional cost) as well.
webeleafowners
Well-known member
Oils4AsphaultOnly said:
Yah I get that. We just don’t have that degradation worry in this climate. Honestly if there is any degradation in our 2016 SV I don’t notice it. A full charge (which we do about once per month fir a certain trip) still yields around 200 km on the GOM. (Speed limits are slower here).
Cheers.
I will know how well the 62 kWh battery holds up in the heat after a few years. My concerns/advantages/disadvantages list between Model 3 and SL+ are similar. The lack of a speedometer directly in front of the steering wheel and vampire load while parked are my biggest concerns. I already left the 2019 parked for 2 weeks while I took a motorcycle trip. State of charge when I returned was virtually identical to what it was when I left. I am also concerned about availability of replacement parts and technical information so I can maintain the car after the warranty expires. I have the Nissan service manual and I know I can order parts through any Nissan dealer. It is not clear how well Tesla will support do it yourself or independent shop repairs.
DougWantsALeaf
Well-known member
It does appear Tesla has taken the stings to its service level seriously, as they have been onboarding a number of additional body shops and repair centers into their certified list places to get work done.
That was certainly still one of the advantages of going with the mainline companies (GM, Nissan,etc..) but is quickly leveling, even since the spring.
That was certainly still one of the advantages of going with the mainline companies (GM, Nissan,etc..) but is quickly leveling, even since the spring.
GerryAZ said:
In the end, the lack of a TMS on the Leaf really kills it for me. The bigger battery means fewer charges and a lot less time sitting idle at full charge but without a TMS I can't trust the battery and I don't trust Nissan to make things right if a problem does show up. Also Nissan still doesn't have a 90% charge option. I don't want a car that I have to junk when the battery fails outside of the warranty. Tesla appears to be aiming at a 20 year service life for the 3 as opposed to Nissan's 8-10 year service life. Tesla will at least make an effort if there's a problem and they've already committed to battery repairs as an option .
There's a difference in philosophy here. Tesla wants the whole world driving electric cars, trucks, buses. They would like it if most of them were Tesla's but the goal is to eliminate ICE. Nissan just wants to sell you a car and when it breaks sell you another. Tesla wants lots of used Tesla cars still running around in 10-15 years replacing those old ICE clunkers. I believe that Tesla will have easy parts availability for the small stuff (Amazon maybe?) and service centers for battery or motor replacement. I think Elon Musk really wants to to save the world and this is just the start.
cwerdna
Well-known member
^^^
While I don't disagree w/many of your points about Nissan, good luck w/your inferences about Tesla. I think you've drank the Kool Aid.
I've pointed to 3 folks on their 7th+ drive unit on the Model S at https://www.mynissanleaf.com/viewtopic.php?f=10&t=18016&p=541134&hilit=7th+drive+unit#p541134.
https://teslamotorsclub.com/tmc/threads/shoddy-quality-and-poor-qc-and-missing-parts.117356/page-5#post-3516347 has over a dozen Model 3 drive unit failures I'd compiled on/off by end of March 2019. I don't browse TMC that much any longer but I know there have been more Model 3 DU failures posted since then.
I started https://teslamotorsclub.com/tmc/threads/automotive-reliability-and-durability-testing.56176/ and just hear crickets. Seems like every single vehicle model they've produced is a late rush job w/insufficient validation or changes made that aren't validated properly.
I suspect that many (most?) Model 3 will become illogical or uneconomical to repair and keep running well before the 20 year mark. Just look at some of the example I cited already with Model S at https://www.mynissanleaf.com/viewtopic.php?p=569077#p569077 once the 4 year/50K mile warranty basic is over.
I'd seen this story, possibly aired on CNBC: https://www.cnbc.com/2019/08/24/tesla-roadster-repairs-medlock-sons-in-seattle.html. Tesla already doesn't seem to support their 2008 to 2012-produced Roadster particularly well at this point.
I don't blame for you being jaded about Nissan as some of their behavior/attitude re: EVs is vexing but "the grass is greener on the other side" isn't always true and I think you've been misled. Tesla and Elon are all about hype.
While I don't disagree w/many of your points about Nissan, good luck w/your inferences about Tesla. I think you've drank the Kool Aid.
I've seen no evidence of the former. Tesla reliability is still not good: https://www.cnbc.com/2018/10/24/tesla-reliability-slips-to-third-worst-in-us-consumer-reports-says.html. Model X is still a reliability disaster, ending up every year in the bottom 10 of reliability where CR has data: https://www.consumerreports.org/car-reliability-owner-satisfaction/10-least-reliable-cars/. See https://www.mynissanleaf.com/viewtopic.php?f=10&t=18016&p=541134#p541134.johnlocke said:
I've pointed to 3 folks on their 7th+ drive unit on the Model S at https://www.mynissanleaf.com/viewtopic.php?f=10&t=18016&p=541134&hilit=7th+drive+unit#p541134.
https://teslamotorsclub.com/tmc/threads/shoddy-quality-and-poor-qc-and-missing-parts.117356/page-5#post-3516347 has over a dozen Model 3 drive unit failures I'd compiled on/off by end of March 2019. I don't browse TMC that much any longer but I know there have been more Model 3 DU failures posted since then.
I started https://teslamotorsclub.com/tmc/threads/automotive-reliability-and-durability-testing.56176/ and just hear crickets. Seems like every single vehicle model they've produced is a late rush job w/insufficient validation or changes made that aren't validated properly.
I suspect that many (most?) Model 3 will become illogical or uneconomical to repair and keep running well before the 20 year mark. Just look at some of the example I cited already with Model S at https://www.mynissanleaf.com/viewtopic.php?p=569077#p569077 once the 4 year/50K mile warranty basic is over.
Earlier in the year way before what I'm posting below even existed, I was talking to my auto insurance agent over the phone and he claimed that some folks w/older Model S have had trouble getting parts (for accident repairs). I didn't even ask him about this. He brought it up. He said in some cases, parts had to be specially manufactured. (I didn't ask him for details as I already had ruled out the 3 and had my Bolt for a few months.)johnlocke said:
I'd seen this story, possibly aired on CNBC: https://www.cnbc.com/2019/08/24/tesla-roadster-repairs-medlock-sons-in-seattle.html. Tesla already doesn't seem to support their 2008 to 2012-produced Roadster particularly well at this point.
Do watch the video...
I don't blame for you being jaded about Nissan as some of their behavior/attitude re: EVs is vexing but "the grass is greener on the other side" isn't always true and I think you've been misled. Tesla and Elon are all about hype.
DaveinOlyWA
Well-known member
cwerdna said:
Spot on but I think the ideology behind Tesla and support for its older fleet is simply the result of wanting to not only the "be all now but the be all first" a goal Tesla is not accomplishing on either front.
"We think you are important but we spent all the money on future development and current customers so here is 2 dollars. Sorry, I want to do more but simply don't have the money... "
This is the norm for a company who built wealth on promises and splash. You must keep the wave machine running or your value plummets when investors realize you are now just another car company.
TBT; Tesla isn't (or shouldn't be) a consumer car company. The real money is OTR transport industry. The SC network, Tesla Semi's, Powerwalls? All of that is not done for the consumers; its simply proof of concept that the company can take up the greatest challenge of the century; electrification of the trucking industry.
You might be right about me drinking Tesla Kool-aid but I'm not swallowing any more of Nissan's hogwash either. Nissan has a car that works well in Europe and Japan. It doesn't work well in the US and Nissan doesn't care. The Model 3 is going to be a high volume car, with 400,000 coming out of Fremont and probably several 100,000 out of Shanghai next year. Tesla will probably start a new Gigafactory in Europe next year although it will probably take a couple of years to build (unlike Shanghai which was built in six months). After Europe, I'd expect that the next plant goes in in India or maybe Brazil.cwerdna said:
After you get a a couple of million of these on the street, Third party manufacturers will start building OEM equivalents for most of the body parts and running gear. Reverse engineering parts is a lot easier then designing them in the first place and Tesla has already released a number of patents for anyone to use so patent infringement is less of an issue.
Expect the Model Y to be big seller as well and 75% of it's parts are in common with or derived from the Model 3. That creates an even bigger market for aftermarket parts. Since the Tesla warranty is 8 years or 100K miles, You might expect to see 4 million 3's and Y's in the US alone before the first warranties expire. That's a large parts market just waiting to be tapped.
You need to think of this like a Volkswagen Beetle. Not much to go wrong and most mechanical repairs are relatively simple. Lots of them all around the world and everyone just keeps on repairing them. The only non-repairable items are likely the motor and the battery pack. Everything else can be repaired or replaced. I'd be willing to bet that someone could rebuild the motor if necessary. That leaves the battery pack which is likely one of the most reliable parts of the car and Tesla has quoted $5000-$7000 to repair a pack with new battery modules. That's a lot of money to put in an old car unless you can expect to drive it for another 4-5 years and then maybe sell it for $3000.
WetEV
Well-known member
johnlocke said:
The Leaf works well for some people in the USA. The Leaf doesn't work well for everyone in the USA, or Europe or Japan.
Same is true for the Tesla's, just for different people.
cwerdna
Well-known member
You have a source for the latter? Sounds way too low. As for the former... umm... let's just say I disagree given Tesla's track record on that.johnlocke said:
This weekend, I can point you to a bunch of Teslas w/pack replacements for whatever reason, in some cases, failure.
I think much the same, but I'll add two more thoughts:johnlocke said:
1. The Model 3/Y will have a healthy used parts marketplace
2. The Tesla propensity to improve and revise parts at a very high frequency complicates the replacement parts story. Unless Tesla decides to help in this regard with accessible information the electronic and electric repairs are going to be ... tricky.
cwerdna
Well-known member
https://www.mynissanleaf.com/viewtopic.php?p=558262#p558262 has a pointer to a couple Model 3 pack failures that I collected in a narrow window of time.cwerdna said:
johnlocke: Not sure if you ever saw my post at https://www.mynissanleaf.com/viewtopic.php?p=553832#p553832.
No it is not. The Model 3 warranty is 4 years/50K miles: https://www.tesla.com/support/vehicle-warranty.johnlocke said:
The VW Beetle (I'm talking the FWD water cooled version that was recently discontinued) in the past had a terrible reliability record. It isn't any simpler than other ICEVs of similar size and price. Looking at CR, it look like VW finally got their act together with only 1 year of below average reliability, 3 years of average and 1 year of above average reliability. For the years before model year '12, they have insufficient data.cwerdna said:
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