Weather reduction on range

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Thoth1987

Member
Joined
Oct 4, 2019
Messages
7
Location
British Columbia
Hi all, I'm a very fresh EV owner. I've had mine for about 4/5 months and have put just over 15000 kms on it so far. 2017 S 30kwh. Loving it to pieces. The temp outside has gotten to 6-12 degrees Celsius regularly over the last week here[live in BC Canada]and I've noticed my drive to work typically took about 23% to do, but now takes about 35%. Even when I used the AC and occasionally the heater for the whole trip it was still 22-25% per trip. So now instead of about 50% for the whole day it's closer to 65%. I use a level 1 charger at home so I'm going to have to use the chargers a block or 2 away from work every 2nd or 3rd day now. Really not a problem, still much better than our outrageous gas prices but I'm really curious as to why. Does a 10 degree drop in weather really cause this much power loss? It's also been raining a fair bit but ever when it's not the range is still poop. And if the temp drop is the main culprit - does that mean when it gets to -5 - -10 Celsius that it'll be even worse?
I've also got 17" winter tires on now, switched from the factory M+S 16" wheel/tire combo. Current tires are at 36psi and are just a good set of generic winter tires, nothing 'ev specific'. Could that also be a factor?
Thanks in advance
 
This is why we ask people to put their year and model Leaf in their signature line, via the user control panel. In your case we don't even know for a fact that it's a Leaf! I'm assuming that it is a Leaf, and here is the situation: cold weather always reduces EV range. Between the drop in battery chemical efficiency, increased use of the heater (the #1 factor) and increased rolling resistance, this is inevitable. Do you have a Leaf S? because if you do, then the resistance heater that provides all of the car's heat really uses a lot of power, even in milder temps. Canadians should avoid Leafs with no heat pump-assisted heat for this reason - although once temps drop below something like -5 to -10C it no longer matters, because all Leafs rely on resistance heat from that point down. I hope that you at least have the heated seats and steering wheel...
 
Just finished my first “colder run” in the Leaf Plus. 48-51F outside for 470 miles today (Chicago to Door County and back). You can definitely feel the slightly diminished range (thicker air?). I was driving to match speed to destination in the last hour, so if I was babying it, i don’t know what would have been the true delta vs. prior long drives. At the rate I was going extrapolating to a full tank, would say the range was about 210 max given speed and cold.

They really need a fast charger installed North of Milwaukee. Level 2 doesn’t cut it.

Left 100% ; arrived EVGo on Capitol at 69% ; nctc to 92% ; arrived door county at 21% ; level 1 and 2 to 80% ; arrived capitol EVGo at 3% ; charged to 40% to drive back to Chicago. Arrived home at 2% and 5.5kWh remaining per Leafspy.

Efficiency was upper 3’s for most of the highway sections.

65-70 most of the drive except for construction zones (a couple nasty ones at night between Chicago and Milwaukee). Bits a little faster or slower.

With fast charging, doing over 500 miles in a normal day I think is very doable.
 
Yes, sorry will fix.

Additional notes are that at about 50F I think is Goldilocks outside temp for the car as even during relatively fast driving (70-75 is fast for me) the temp stayed constant and after quick charge (temp rose 9F over the 35 minutes of charging at 35kW) the temp declines by 5 of those degrees in the 90 minutes of driving post the charge.
 
Thoth1987 said:
Hi all, I'm a very fresh EV owner. I've had mine for about 4/5 months and have put just over 15000 kms on it so far. 2017 S 30kwh. Loving it to pieces. The temp outside has gotten to 6-12 degrees Celsius regularly over the last week here[live in BC Canada]and I've noticed my drive to work typically took about 23% to do, but now takes about 35%. Even when I used the AC and occasionally the heater for the whole trip it was still 22-25% per trip. So now instead of about 50% for the whole day it's closer to 65%. I use a level 1 charger at home so I'm going to have to use the chargers a block or 2 away from work every 2nd or 3rd day now. Really not a problem, still much better than our outrageous gas prices but I'm really curious as to why. Does a 10 degree drop in weather really cause this much power loss? It's also been raining a fair bit but ever when it's not the range is still poop. And if the temp drop is the main culprit - does that mean when it gets to -5 - -10 Celsius that it'll be even worse?
I've also got 17" winter tires on now, switched from the factory M+S 16" wheel/tire combo. Current tires are at 36psi and are just a good set of generic winter tires, nothing 'ev specific'. Could that also be a factor?
Thanks in advance
I would suspect the range hit was mostly caused by the change in tires than the temperature.
 
Thoth1987 said:
Hi all, I'm a very fresh EV owner. I've had mine for about 4/5 months and have put just over 15000 kms on it so far. 2017 S 30kwh. Loving it to pieces. The temp outside has gotten to 6-12 degrees Celsius regularly over the last week here[live in BC Canada]and I've noticed my drive to work typically took about 23% to do, but now takes about 35%. Even when I used the AC and occasionally the heater for the whole trip it was still 22-25% per trip. So now instead of about 50% for the whole day it's closer to 65%. I use a level 1 charger at home so I'm going to have to use the chargers a block or 2 away from work every 2nd or 3rd day now. Really not a problem, still much better than our outrageous gas prices but I'm really curious as to why. Does a 10 degree drop in weather really cause this much power loss? It's also been raining a fair bit but ever when it's not the range is still poop. And if the temp drop is the main culprit - does that mean when it gets to -5 - -10 Celsius that it'll be even worse?
I've also got 17" winter tires on now, switched from the factory M+S 16" wheel/tire combo. Current tires are at 36psi and are just a good set of generic winter tires, nothing 'ev specific'. Could that also be a factor?
Thanks in advance

Does your level 1 home charging take too long to replenish 65% of the battery? Do have any access to a 240V outlet in your garage? I'd seriously consider such if it will save you having to charge away from home on a regular basis.

I believe your winter tires are responsible for the biggest hit here. Low rolling resistance tires would have made a big difference, and, honestly, changing to the larger wheels probably added to your energy consumption, too. My '17 SV has the 17 inch wheels and if I decide to put winter tires on the car, I'll probably go the other direction and put 16" wheels on for that.
Wet pavement and head winds can deal a blow as well.

You will find that the range gets worse as the temperatures get colder still, since lubricant drag, wind resistance, rolling resistance, heating power draw will all get worse with the colder temps. Have you heated seats and a heated steering wheel? Consider making major use of those if they'll let you turn the heater down. Experiment!
 
Thoth1987 said:
Hi all, I'm a very fresh EV owner. I've had mine for about 4/5 months and have put just over 15000 kms on it so far. 2017 S 30kwh. Loving it to pieces. The temp outside has gotten to 6-12 degrees Celsius regularly over the last week here[live in BC Canada]and I've noticed my drive to work typically took about 23% to do, but now takes about 35%. Even when I used the AC and occasionally the heater for the whole trip it was still 22-25% per trip. So now instead of about 50% for the whole day it's closer to 65%. I use a level 1 charger at home so I'm going to have to use the chargers a block or 2 away from work every 2nd or 3rd day now. Really not a problem, still much better than our outrageous gas prices but I'm really curious as to why. Does a 10 degree drop in weather really cause this much power loss? It's also been raining a fair bit but ever when it's not the range is still poop. And if the temp drop is the main culprit - does that mean when it gets to -5 - -10 Celsius that it'll be even worse?
I've also got 17" winter tires on now, switched from the factory M+S 16" wheel/tire combo. Current tires are at 36psi and are just a good set of generic winter tires, nothing 'ev specific'. Could that also be a factor?
Thanks in advance
As Leftie said, since you have an S model(as do I) even using the heat sparengly it will really kill your range, a Leaf with a heat pump heater and temps you described will basically effect range similar to the A/C, IOW very little. Again like Leftie said, once you get into the single digits and colder(F) the heat pump Leaf will be basically like our S models. Moderate use of heat really kills your range when using the regular resistive heater(S model heater and heat pump heater in single-digit(F) and colder temps) even when new it made my 70 mile Leaf barely able to make 60 miles(I have the old 24 kWh battery). The more you use your heater the more it will affect your range. What I do but you really need a L2 EVSE to make it work is to preheat my Leaf whenever the temps are going to drop below say 20F. Starting out with a 80F interior lets you just use the heater while driving minimally, increasing your range, otherwise not a whole lot you can do if you like heat or even need heat to defrost your windshield.
Another thing no one touched on(well Chris did slip in before my post, while I was composing it :lol: ) were your tires, they can make a BIG difference and if you were going from very low rolling resistance(LRR) to snow tires, which are inherently much higher RR, that will also make a big difference on your range. If you had Bridgestone Ecopias(about lowest RR as you can find) and switched to a set of generic snows, that would be a BIG hit.
I personally was looking into snows for my '12SL, Michelin X-ICE3 are supposed to be somewhat low RR, nothing like Ecopias but good for snows but now I'm pretty sure I'm going to go with a good set of "winter rated"(mountain peak icon on the tire) all seasons. I like the Michelin Cross Climates but I'm also looking into the Firestone Weathergrips as I'm thinking I can get them for roughly $43USD less(per tire) than the Michelins.......so far I haven't found a good site comparing the RRs of either of these "winter rated" all seasons, that will also affect my decision but yes, tires make a BIG difference on range. Oh and lastly, I'd personally suggest near the max inflation pressure on whatever tire you get, I usually run 44psi on my Ecopias, which I believe is near max, this also helps range and I personally don't feel it affects the ride all that much.
 
LeftieBiker said:
This is why we ask people to put their year and model Leaf in their signature line, via the user control panel. In your case we don't even know for a fact that it's a Leaf! I'm assuming that it is a Leaf, and...

Way to go Mr Modjulator--are you trying to run the new guy off on his first post? And without even a word of Welcome? Too bad we can't block high frequency (low S/N) posters on this forum.
 
For winter in places where it gets cold you will probably really want to get level 2 charging at home. Even if it's just a lowly 16 amp 240v evse setup.
A 16 amp 240v evse will charge nearly 4 times faster than 12 amp 120v trickle charging.
 
Oilpan4 said:
For winter in places where it gets cold you will probably really want to get level 2 charging at home. Even if it's just a lowly 16 amp 240v evse setup.
A 16 amp 240v evse will charge nearly 4 times faster than 12 amp 120v trickle charging.

And the level 2 will let you preheat from the grid, which can make a big difference.
 
The snow tires are probably responsible for about 1/3 of the range loss, with the rest being from using heat. As noted above you should consider inflating them (and the Summer tires) above the low 36psi on the door sticker. 40psi is a good compromise between Winter traction and rolling efficiency.

My tone wasn't intended to be at all harsh. Welcome to the forum, Thoth1987.
 
Well first off, I did state which car I had in the opening of my message. It's a Leaf forum and I said 2017 S 30 KWH! All good Leftie, I used to be very busy on forums so I can understand the annoyance of not knowing basic stuff when questions are posed.

Anyways, lot of good advice, lot more replies then I had anticipated. I knew the wheel/tire combo would be a bit of a burden. They're at 36 psi but if I can bump them up to 42ish then I absolutely will. They came as a set privately and look excellent so my inner car guy couldn't resist. I was unaware that the S models had different heating systems and I did a good amount of research on Leafs before I jumped on it. Though I couldn't find much negative info besides the rapid gate stuff. Oh well. I do have heated seats but not wheel. I also am mainly confused as I've used the heater a lot without having so much loss in range but perhaps it's more the tires then the heater. Or the heater working harder due to the colder outside temp.
I am not able to replenish the 65% loss during the night as the level one just barely gets me 50% and that's assuming I get home at a reasonable time, which I usually do. I also only have the level one charger and am living in a big arse 5th wheel[because screw rent prices]which doesn't have an extra 30 amp outlet anyways. I may be getting one but I'll need the L2 charger cable as well which I may not be able to get until after winter.
I was fore-warned about this issue cropping up in the cold so like I said before, I'm not too concerned as long as the issues going on are normal and expected for my situation[tires/wheels/S model heater etc].
Lastly I do have the morning pre-heat enabled for about 5 minutes before I get up. So nice! Though I'm sure with a L1 charger it'll kill 1% or so - ah well! Thanks again for the help fellas! Any more tips are certainly welcome. I also have a teeny deposit on a 2019 or 2020 Leaf Plus. So I should be able to get into one of those in.... 6ish months
70539608_10162378511070333_5759331340394692608_o.jpg
 
LeftieBiker said:
The snow tires are probably responsible for about 1/3 of the range loss, with the rest being from using heat. As noted above you should consider inflating them (and the Summer tires) above the low 36psi on the door sticker. 40psi is a good compromise between Winter traction and rolling efficiency.

My tone wasn't intended to be at all harsh. Welcome to the forum, Thoth1987.

In another conversation, you disagreed that snow tires are not great for EVs. Yes, snow tire lower your range and should really not be used if you can help it...
 
powersurge said:
LeftieBiker said:
The snow tires are probably responsible for about 1/3 of the range loss, with the rest being from using heat. As noted above you should consider inflating them (and the Summer tires) above the low 36psi on the door sticker. 40psi is a good compromise between Winter traction and rolling efficiency.

My tone wasn't intended to be at all harsh. Welcome to the forum, Thoth1987.

In another conversation, you disagreed that snow tires are not great for EVs. Yes, snow tire lower your range and should really not be used if you can help it...


Snow tires are great for EVs in Winter - they help keep them on the road. Snow tires also can (but don't always) reduce range by varying degrees. It isn't a perfect world. I wouldn't want to crash my Leaf on a slippery road because I'd hoped for a few more miles of range...
 
Well first off, I did state which car I had in the opening of my message. It's a Leaf forum and I said 2017 S 30 KWH! All good Leftie, I used to be very busy on forums so I can understand the annoyance of not knowing basic stuff when questions are posed.

My apologies for failing to see that - I must have been tired. If you have heated seats, then you should also have the heated steering wheel! Look for a button with an icon showing a steering wheel radiating heat, in the group of buttons on the far left of the dashboard, near the door. I'll shortly link my Tips & Tricks post for more useful info on driving a Gen...1.75?...Leaf.

https://www.mynissanleaf.com/viewtopic.php?f=38&t=23297&p=482154
 
I don't think the S has the heated steering wheel. At least this one doesn't.

Welcome--I drive an S-30 as well.

One thing that kind of surprised/impressed me is that a trip home last Spring through a few inches of fresh, untracked slush didn't use as much energy as I thought it would. A theory is that in slippery winter conditions, you partially exchange air resistance for snow resistance and the overall loss isn't as large.

You can also experiment with intermittent heat use. I saw a video explaining how to set the system to recirc when off, and switch to fresh air when on. Then the system can be turned on and off, and cold air won't come in the vents when off. I usually bundle up, with snowpants, gloves, and wool socks, use the heated seats, and use the heater on the first fan speed, as needed.

On the Prius I used to drive, the economy difference between winter tires and all-seasons wasn't significant. There are also some all-season tires that have very strong winter performance, and some that are quite poor. I use the survey results from Tirerack to select tires. Some grand touring tires are strong winter performers: https://www.tirerack.com/tires/surveyresults/surveydisplay.jsp?type=GTAS
 
PrairieLEAF said:
One thing that kind of surprised/impressed me is that a trip home last Spring through a few inches of fresh, untracked slush didn't use as much energy as I thought it would. A theory is that in slippery winter conditions, you partially exchange air resistance for snow resistance and the overall loss isn't as large.

That will depend on where you are driving. If you are driving at 60 km/h where you would normally drive at 100 km/h, aerodynamic drag will be reduced significantly. If you have slowed down because of smooth ice and not soft snow or slush, you might even come out ahead. If you are driving at 30 km/h where you would normally drive at 50 km/h, the aerodynamic advantage is minimal and you will use significantly more energy if you are plowing through soft snow or slush. There is also the effect of climate control being a roughly constant draw, which makes more of a difference when a 20 km city drive takes 45 minutes instead of half an hour than when a 20 km highway drive takes 20 minutes instead of 12.
 
Yea definitely doin't have a heated steering wheel. I'll survive though haha. Thanks a lot for all the tips and that link was a nice rundown. The fastest speed on the route I take to work and back is 80 so at most I'm doing 85. I know to reduce speed a bit though, I learnt that on my first road trip to my parents. I did inflate the tires. They actually went from about 34 down to 30[I guess due to the cold temp and sitting?], so I pumped them all up to 46. That alone has absolutely made a difference. Not huge - but I'll take it. Looks like the rest is as stated above to manage my heating usage through fresh air and recirc mode when needed.
Thanks again!
 
Thoth1987 said:
I also only have the level one charger and am living in a big arse 5th wheel[because screw rent prices]which doesn't have an extra 30 amp outlet anyways.

Your 5th wheel most likely connect to a Nema 14-50 plug. Depending where your trailer is setup (campground, friends field, etc.) do you have access to 220-240V?

If you do have a decent supply, I would buy a dumb level 2 charger like a Duosida or similar. When you get home unplug the trailer (run on battery) and plug the car in for a couple of hours, this will do the bulk of the charging. Then plug the trailer in and use your level 1 charger to top up over night.

Even better would be to make a plug splitter so you can run both at the same time, the 5er will only have a significant draw when you are running the air conditioning or if you cook with electric.
 
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