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DougWantsALeaf said:
The reason why I ask, is that I don't know if I really want Tesla Perusing all of my driving data.
Why don't you wonder the same about Nissan?
DougWantsALeaf said:
Those free updates...aren't free.
It's odd how you equate the updates with any potential monitoring. They aren't the same. In fact, OTA updates usually download over WiFi.
 
TonyWilliams said:
GRA said:
- I'm ready for BEVs, but BEVs and their infrastructure aren't ready for me, although they're finally getting close. Since many of my friends like to visit similar areas and do similar things, few of us are able to make the switch, even though we're all environmentalists who'd love to be able to wave good-bye to fossil-fuels.

You’re not an environmentalist if you’re driving a fossil fuel powered car in 2019.

I’m dumbfounded why you keep preaching anti-EV BS on this forum, for almost a decade. Why haven’t you gotten that hydrogen car that you seem fond of?

The simple answer is, at the core, you prefer oil and fossil fuels over being an environmentalist, because of your misguided self interests, and poor knowledge of EVs. The rest of us are just “doing it”, and you’re still finding reasons why to support oil.

<snip>

You are NOT an environmentalist. You and your friends are a proud oil consumers.


Really not worth a reply as I've explained the reasons for my decision at length, but I do find it ironic to be criticized for not being an environmentalist by someone who believes they are one, who, during the period I've been a member here, by their own account bought at least 9 cars (it may well be more now) with all the attendant energy and resource use attendant on their production and disposal, often discarding them in a year or two; who's proud of having driven 300,000 miles electrically (I've averaged less than 4k miles driving/year over the same period); and who has also flown commercially on several occasions, including to the Middle East, instead of say sailing there:
Let’s make clear what this means. Flying [inter-continentally] once per year has an energy cost slightly bigger than leaving a 1 kW electric fire on, non-stop, 24 hours a day, all year.
https://www.withouthotair.com/c5/page_36.shtml

and also
GCC: Flying first class on a single domestic round trip can contribute more greenhouse gas emissions than a year of driving
https://www.mynissanleaf.com/viewtopic.php?f=13&t=29605

(In addition to choosing to limit my driving I've also chosen not to fly anywhere since 2001).

Apparently I'm not the only environmentalist who makes tradeoff decisions re fossil fuels and their capabilities vs. other techs, and are "proud oil consumers". Enjoy the view out of your all-glass house, and welcome to the club with the rest of us environmentalist sinners. Enough said.
 
Oils4AsphaultOnly said:
DougWantsALeaf said:
Why are Model 3's not making it Germany? Even the Leaf outsold it in October.

https://i.imgur.com/FYonrT6.png

It's called "the wave" delivery method. The cars are sent out in batches (~3000 per boat), and they didn't send out any ships in the last few weeks of Sept to minimize how much cars are "in inventory", so there aren't any product to deliver in Oct. It's a well known Tesla phenomenon that the first month of every quarter has the lowest deliveries for every quarter. Plus they have nationalistic pride (totally normal) to sell against too, so Germany may never be as big of a european market as Norway or the UK for Tesla.


Your second reason seems more likely to be true than the first. Via IEVS:
Germany Sets Huge All-Time Plug-In EV Car Sales Record In October
https://insideevs.com/news/382155/germany-plugin-car-sales-record-october-2019/


Almost 12,000 new passenger plug-in electric cars were registered and most of them were PHEVs. . . .

BEV/PHEV comparison

The big surprise in October was the number of plug-in hybrid registrations, which went through the roof (new volume and share record).

BEVs: 4,979 – up 47% at ~1.75% market share
PHEVs: 6,947 – up 248% at ~2.44% market share

Moreover, PHEVs significantly exceeded BEVs. Was it only a single explosion or a new trend?

One of the biggest eye-openers in October was Mercedes-Benz, which managed some way to achieve 2,355 plug-in hybrid registrations, including 1,564 E-Class and 748 C-Class, as well as an additional 50 BEVs. For the brand, 2,405 total registrations is almost 7.2% share.

But it was BMW that sold the most - 2,681 registrations (858 BEVs and 1,823 PHEVs), including 861 BMW i3, 592 BMW 225xe Active Tourer PHEV, 545 BMW 530e PHEV and 438 BMW 330e PHEV.

Another premium brand that shined last month is Porsche - 801 (66 BEVs and 735 PHEVs, including 596 Cayenne PHEV).

Interestingly, Volkswagen noted 1,034 registrations (888 BEVs and 146 PHEVs), which is less than smart (1,066).

Tesla had a slower month this time (no surprise here as it's the 1st month of a quarter) - 293 registrations.

Brand/model results suggest that the plug-in hybrids from premium brands are in high demand in Germany.


That a PHEV is capable of high-speed cruising on the autobahn over a much greater distance than any BEV may also be a factor, seeing as how these are all higher-end marques. We'll have to see how the Taycan and similar German BEVs do vis-a-vis PHEVs once they're introduced.
 
Can you work a little harder to hide your bias? Right after you've stated "your second reason seems to be more likely", you cite an insideev's report for the 293 sales, to which the author wrote:

"Tesla had a slower month this time (no surprise here as it's the 1st month of a quarter)"

To which, if you had searched Germany's September EV sales, you'd get this:
https://insideevs.com/news/376705/plugin-market-share-germany-almost-4/

1516 in Sept. 7676 YTD, second only to the Zoe.

And just to refute your claims about PHEV's and highway cruising on the autobahn, the YTD top 3 plug-in vehicles are all BEV's: https://cleantechnica.com/2019/10/18/tesla-model-3-1-in-ev-sales-in-germany-in-record-month-cleantechnica-ev-sales-report/

Just give it a rest GRA. Your anti-BEV bias is blantantly clear. Only you are blind to it.


GRA said:
Oils4AsphaultOnly said:
DougWantsALeaf said:
Why are Model 3's not making it Germany? Even the Leaf outsold it in October.

https://i.imgur.com/FYonrT6.png

It's called "the wave" delivery method. The cars are sent out in batches (~3000 per boat), and they didn't send out any ships in the last few weeks of Sept to minimize how much cars are "in inventory", so there aren't any product to deliver in Oct. It's a well known Tesla phenomenon that the first month of every quarter has the lowest deliveries for every quarter. Plus they have nationalistic pride (totally normal) to sell against too, so Germany may never be as big of a european market as Norway or the UK for Tesla.


Your second reason seems more likely to be true than the first. Via IEVS:
Germany Sets Huge All-Time Plug-In EV Car Sales Record In October
https://insideevs.com/news/382155/germany-plugin-car-sales-record-october-2019/


Almost 12,000 new passenger plug-in electric cars were registered and most of them were PHEVs. . . .

BEV/PHEV comparison

The big surprise in October was the number of plug-in hybrid registrations, which went through the roof (new volume and share record).

BEVs: 4,979 – up 47% at ~1.75% market share
PHEVs: 6,947 – up 248% at ~2.44% market share

Moreover, PHEVs significantly exceeded BEVs. Was it only a single explosion or a new trend?

One of the biggest eye-openers in October was Mercedes-Benz, which managed some way to achieve 2,355 plug-in hybrid registrations, including 1,564 E-Class and 748 C-Class, as well as an additional 50 BEVs. For the brand, 2,405 total registrations is almost 7.2% share.

But it was BMW that sold the most - 2,681 registrations (858 BEVs and 1,823 PHEVs), including 861 BMW i3, 592 BMW 225xe Active Tourer PHEV, 545 BMW 530e PHEV and 438 BMW 330e PHEV.

Another premium brand that shined last month is Porsche - 801 (66 BEVs and 735 PHEVs, including 596 Cayenne PHEV).

Interestingly, Volkswagen noted 1,034 registrations (888 BEVs and 146 PHEVs), which is less than smart (1,066).

Tesla had a slower month this time (no surprise here as it's the 1st month of a quarter) - 293 registrations.

Brand/model results suggest that the plug-in hybrids from premium brands are in high demand in Germany.


That a PHEV is capable of high-speed cruising on the autobahn over a much greater distance than any BEV may also be a factor, seeing as how these are all higher-end marques. We'll have to see how the Taycan and similar German BEVs do vis-a-vis PHEVs once they're introduced.
 
Oils4AsphaultOnly said:
Can you work a little harder to hide your bias? Right after you've stated "your second reason seems to be more likely", you cite an insideev's report for the 293 sales, to which the author wrote:

"Tesla had a slower month this time (no surprise here as it's the 1st month of a quarter)"

To which, if you had searched Germany's September EV sales, you'd get this:
https://insideevs.com/news/376705/plugin-market-share-germany-almost-4/

1516 in Sept. 7676 YTD, second only to the Zoe.

And just to refute your claims about PHEV's and highway cruising on the autobahn, the YTD top 3 plug-in vehicles are all BEV's: https://cleantechnica.com/2019/10/18/tesla-model-3-1-in-ev-sales-in-germany-in-record-month-cleantechnica-ev-sales-report/

Just give it a rest GRA. Your anti-BEV bias is blantantly clear. Only you are blind to it.


Sure, Tesla numbers are lower this month than last owing to shipments, but that doesn't explain why German marque PHEV numbers have taken off. I have little doubt that pro-home market bias is the major reason for this, combined with an increase in models available plus greater AERs in the current year models. As to my alleged anti-EV bias, as I've pointed out at length I'm all for EVs of all types, and will happily recommend whichever one best fits the operational requirements. In this case, it appears that German customers have decided that higher-end, German-make PHEVs best fit their requirements, at least for now. As the German manufacturers introduce more BEVs with better specs that will likely change.
 
A couple more Tesla fire crackers. I agree with Elon that. Chance of instant death from battery pop is low, but thermal runaway or fire still seems to happen and more so than with other EVs (there was one Kona in Canada)

https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-7678941/amp/Shocking-moment-Tesla-bursts-flames-charging.html

https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.washingtonpost.com/business/2019/10/23/man-died-burning-tesla-because-its-futuristic-doors-wouldnt-open-lawsuit-alleges/%3foutputType=amp

https://marketrealist.com/2019/11/are-teslas-safety-concerns-blown-out-of-proportion/
 
DougWantsALeaf said:
A couple more Tesla fire crackers. I agree with Elon that. Chance of instant death from battery pop is low, but thermal runaway or fire still seems to happen and more so than with other EVs (there was one Kona in Canada)

https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-7678941/amp/Shocking-moment-Tesla-bursts-flames-charging.html

https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.washingtonpost.com/business/2019/10/23/man-died-burning-tesla-because-its-futuristic-doors-wouldnt-open-lawsuit-alleges/%3foutputType=amp

https://marketrealist.com/2019/11/are-teslas-safety-concerns-blown-out-of-proportion/

Surely by now, you're aware that any Tesla fire gets news coverage, regardless of the extreme measures taken to cause it (tesla crashes usually involve 4 times the kinetic energy of other EV crashes). Yes the leaf has had far fewer fires (from all causes) than Teslas, but in a traffic accident, I'd rather be in a Tesla than a leaf.
 
GRA said:
Oils4AsphaultOnly said:
Can you work a little harder to hide your bias? Right after you've stated "your second reason seems to be more likely", you cite an insideev's report for the 293 sales, to which the author wrote:

"Tesla had a slower month this time (no surprise here as it's the 1st month of a quarter)"

To which, if you had searched Germany's September EV sales, you'd get this:
https://insideevs.com/news/376705/plugin-market-share-germany-almost-4/

1516 in Sept. 7676 YTD, second only to the Zoe.

And just to refute your claims about PHEV's and highway cruising on the autobahn, the YTD top 3 plug-in vehicles are all BEV's: https://cleantechnica.com/2019/10/18/tesla-model-3-1-in-ev-sales-in-germany-in-record-month-cleantechnica-ev-sales-report/

Just give it a rest GRA. Your anti-BEV bias is blantantly clear. Only you are blind to it.


Sure, Tesla numbers are lower this month than last owing to shipments, but that doesn't explain why German marque PHEV numbers have taken off. I have little doubt that pro-home market bias is the major reason for this, combined with an increase in models available plus greater AERs in the current year models. As to my alleged anti-EV bias, as I've pointed out at length I'm all for EVs of all types, and will happily recommend whichever one best fits the operational requirements. In this case, it appears that German customers have decided that higher-end, German-make PHEVs best fit their requirements, at least for now. As the German manufacturers introduce more BEVs with better specs that will likely change.

PHEV sales were 2360 in Sept, and 6947 in Oct. Looking at BMW and Mercedes numbers, it seems the increase was proportional across all brands. So the increase hardly has anything to do with preference for the german brand. As for PHEV versus BEV sales ratio in Oct, one month out of 10 doesn't make a trend.
 
Oils4AsphaultOnly said:
in a traffic accident, I'd rather be in a Tesla than a leaf.

Look for real numbers, not Musk Tweets...
https://www.greencarreports.com/news/1124439_nhtsa-to-tesla-stop-claiming-your-cars-are-the-safest

According to https://www.iihs.org/ratings/driver-death-rates-by-make-and-model

The LEAF is one of the best. Interesting that rollover single car accidents are main cause of death! You can roll over a LEAF??
Tesla isn't listed for death rates, too small of numbers for the most recent (2014) report.

https://www.iihs.org/ratings/insurance-losses-by-make-and-model
Insurance costs ($$) (2015-2017)(larger is worse)
Vehicle ------------------------ Collision --- Property damage --- Comprehensive --- Personal injury --- Medical payment --- Bodily injury
Nissan Leaf electric ......... -22% ................ -18% .............................. -59% .......................... -21% ....................... -40% ....................... -26%
Tesla Model S 4dr electric 172% .............. -5% ................................ 103% ......................... -33% ........................ -45% ........................ -15%

Looks like the LEAF and Model S are both safer than average. Model 3 is still too new. Both are not the safest.
 
WetEV said:
Oils4AsphaultOnly said:
in a traffic accident, I'd rather be in a Tesla than a leaf.

Look for real numbers, not Musk Tweets...
https://www.greencarreports.com/news/1124439_nhtsa-to-tesla-stop-claiming-your-cars-are-the-safest

According to https://www.iihs.org/ratings/driver-death-rates-by-make-and-model

The LEAF is one of the best. Interesting that rollover single car accidents are main cause of death! You can roll over a LEAF??
Tesla isn't listed for death rates, too small of numbers for the most recent (2014) report.

https://www.iihs.org/ratings/insurance-losses-by-make-and-model
Insurance costs ($$) (2015-2017)(larger is worse)
Vehicle ------------------------ Collision --- Property damage --- Comprehensive --- Personal injury --- Medical payment --- Bodily injury
Nissan Leaf electric ......... -22% ................ -18% .............................. -59% .......................... -21% ....................... -40% ....................... -26%
Tesla Model S 4dr electric 172% .............. -5% ................................ 103% ......................... -33% ........................ -45% ........................ -15%

Looks like the LEAF and Model S are both safer than average. Model 3 is still too new. Both are not the safest.

You've highlighted the extensive insurance cost of a large car versus a small car as justification that the small car is _safer_??!?! I hope you were being sarcastic here?

And why would you make a 2019 car purchase decision off of 2014 data? Especially since the NHTSA crash test results are available: https://www-nrd.nhtsa.dot.gov/database/veh/veh.htm

Note that the old style leaf had a 4-star crash rating, while the new style hasn't been tested yet. And we already know that within the 5-star ratings, there's still a range of acceptable values for cabin intrusion and passenger survivability.

Or you can go by the NCAP ratings (which gave both vehicles 5-stars, but provides the sub-category scores as well instead of just hiding it), which also shows the model 3 being safer than the leaf:
https://www.euroncap.com/en/results/nissan/leaf/32742
https://www.euroncap.com/en/results/tesla/model-3/37573
 
Oils4AsphaultOnly said:
You've highlighted the extensive insurance cost of a large car versus a small car as justification that the small car is _safer_??!?! I hope you were being sarcastic here?

No, I'm saying that based on death rate, the LEAF is a very safe car, not quite the safest, and there are not yet insurance company statistics to compare to any Tesla. I suspect that it isn't as safe, but don't see good enough data to prove the case.

https://medium.com/@MidwesternHedgi/teslas-driver-fatality-rate-is-more-than-triple-that-of-luxury-cars-and-likely-even-higher-433670ddde17


I wasn't very interested in property damage costs, but rather the last three. "Personal injury --- Medical payment --- Bodily injury "

Tesla is slighter better than the LEAF, but again both cars are not the safest on the road. Death rates and injury rates may not be similar.


Oils4AsphaultOnly said:
And why would you make a 2019 car purchase decision off of 2014 data?

Because there isn't comparable data for more recent years.

Oils4AsphaultOnly said:
Especially since the NHTSA crash test results are available: https://www-nrd.nhtsa.dot.gov/database/veh/veh.htm

Crash tests are a snapshot of what might happen. Designed for repeatable results and all that good engineering test stuff.

In the real world, many different types of crashes happen. Both types of information are useful. Given a difference, I'd put more weight on the real world insurance data.

I'm not the slightest bit interested in Musk's Tweets.
 
Oils4AsphaultOnly said:
PHEV sales were 2360 in Sept, and 6947 in Oct. Looking at BMW and Mercedes numbers, it seems the increase was proportional across all brands. So the increase hardly has anything to do with preference for the german brand. As for PHEV versus BEV sales ratio in Oct, one month out of 10 doesn't make a trend.

Yet it's the higher-end German marques that are seeing the increase. I agree that a single month doesn't prove a trend, only an indication that there might be one, and a longer period is necessary to confirm one. We'll also have to see if Tesla's decision to locate their first (and maybe only) European plant in Germany causes Germans to think of the brand as semi-German instead of American, and whether that might also lead to changes in the cars that make them more amenable to German drivers' taste. Of course, with the ID.3 and a slew of German BEVs about to arrive, that may not matter, but as always, we'll see.
 
New max Supercharging speed:
SR+: 170kW
MR: 200kW

https://www.reddit.com/r/teslamotors/comments/e375ot/20194011_includes_170kw_superchargering_for_the_sr/
https://www.reddit.com/r/teslamotors/comments/e3avpz/midrange_model_3_updated_to_faster_supercharging/
 
IEVS:
Tesla Model 3 Outsells Honda Accord In California: Closing In On Camry
https://insideevs.com/news/385236/tesla-model-3-california-sales-2019/


Tesla Model 3 remains in the race for the #2 best-selling car in California in 2019, just 277 behind the Toyota Camry.

New car sales in California over the first nine months of 2019 have experienced a mild decline (down 5.1% to 1.43 million YTD), but the plug-in (BEV/PHEV) and hybrid (HEV) segments were positive. . . .

  • BEVs: 78,776 (market share of 5.5%), up 28% from 61,386
    PHEVs: 34,185 (market share of 2.4%), down 25% from 45,537
    Total: 112,961 (market share of 7.9%), up 5.6% from 106,923

    HEVs: 79,017 (market share of 5.5%), up 27% from 62,189
    Total xEVs: 191,978 (market share of 13.4%), up 13.5% from 169,112. . . .

Several BEVs were in the top 5 of their respective classes:


  • Chevrolet Bolt EV (6,723): #2 in Subcompact
    BMW i3 (1,968): #3 in Entry Luxury
    Tesla Model 3 (48,483): #1 in Near Luxury
    Tesla Model S (4,756): #3 in Luxury and High End Sports Cars
    Tesla Model X (5,388): #4 in Luxury Mid Size SUV

The Tesla Model 3 is the #3 best-selling car model with just a small gap to #2!


  • Honda Civic - 58,967
    Toyota Camry - 48,760
    Tesla Model 3 - 48,483
    Honda Accord - 43,709
    Toyota Corolla - 40,928. . . .


I have no trouble at all believing this. While they still aren't as common as the CivCamCordOrolla, seeing one or more Model 3s in any stoplight cycle is routine now.
 
I have noticed an increasing number of 3 owners posting that they have opted into getting the Chademo adapter.

Any news about a faster adapter coming now that there are more 100Kw stations out there to charge at?

https://youtu.be/D2mZl8mS7NM
 
DougWantsALeaf said:
I have noticed an increasing number of 3 owners posting that they have opted into getting the Chademo adapter.

Any news about a faster adapter coming now that there are more 100Kw stations out there to charge at?

https://youtu.be/D2mZl8mS7NM
I would be far more interested in a CCS adapter for a model 3. There will be far more CCS plugs available than Chademo. Model 3 in Europe has them, why not here?
 
DougWantsALeaf said:
I have noticed an increasing number of 3 owners posting that they have opted into getting the Chademo adapter.

Any news about a faster adapter coming now that there are more 100Kw stations out there to charge at?

https://youtu.be/D2mZl8mS7NM

Are there many 100kw chademo chargers available in your area?

Unfortunately, the official word is that the adapters are only rated for 50kw. Considering the difference between 50kw and 100kw is the current capacity, a physically different adapter would have to be developed. So not likely?
 
Oils4AsphaultOnly said:
Unfortunately, the official word is that the adapters are only rated for 50kw. Considering the difference between 50kw and 100kw is the current capacity, a physically different adapter would have to be developed. So not likely?

Sadly you are correct. The $450 Tesla CHAdeMO adapter does have a 50kw limit according to the specs at the Tesla store. We do have at least two CHAdeMO stations locally but I've only used them for my 2012 LEAF. No need for the Tesla as home L2 charging meets all my non-trip needs. For trips the Supercharger network suffices very well.
 

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