Fenix Power - Took money and but never delivered

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https://fenix.systems/news/2019/12/07/size-matters-we-found-our-lithium-ion-cell-supplier?utm_source=Website+Subscriptions&utm_campaign=59d483d315-EMAIL_CAMPAIGN_2019_12_08_02_05&utm_medium=email&utm_term=0_3424cbb015-59d483d315-274304439&mc_cid=59d483d315&mc_eid=593d3cb615 :geek:
 
And the name of that supplier is?

That's one of the reasons I don't trust these guys they always act like they have to hide everything.
This part should have been figured out months ago.
 
While a 40 KWH upgrade path is great, They haven't disclosed the actual cost yet. If we're talking $6K for the battery and $1500 to install, that's more than I'm willing to spend on a $7500 car (last trade-in offer from Tesla on my car).
 
Isn’t Fenix the guys who are proposing a monthly fee instead of selling the battery? Or is that someone else.

The guys in Quebec have a sellable product. If they ever get a western installer there are a couple folks in our town who would drop 10 grand Canadian for a 40 KWH upgrade to their gen 1 Leaf.
 
webeleafowners said:
Isn’t Fenix the guys who are proposing a monthly fee instead of selling the battery? Or is that someone else.

The guys in Quebec have a sellable product. If they ever get a western installer there are a couple folks in our town who would drop 10 grand Canadian for a 40 KWH upgrade to their gen 1 Leaf.
Click to expand...

Yes, Fenix is the upgrade subscription model. They've stated costs to rent the battery will be less than $99 per month for 30 kWh and $1500 for installation. They also offered an option to buy the battery outright, but haven't specified that cost.

Now that they have the battery supplier locked in, it's unclear if the $99/mth will apply to the 40 kWh or 30 kWh.

As always, I think the pricing is reasonable with the Fenix folks. $99/mth to keep an otherwise good Leaf running, on the road, with greater capacity than new seems like a slam dunk for a lot of people. The concern with Fenix is the risk: They've yet to show anything public that's working or demonstrating the tech.

https://fenix.systems/product/nissan-leaf-battery-pack-replacement-pre-production
 
johnlocke said:
While a 40 KWH upgrade path is great, They haven't disclosed the actual cost yet. If we're talking $6K for the battery and $1500 to install, that's more than I'm willing to spend on a $7500 car (last trade-in offer from Tesla on my car).
Click to expand...

Basing the value proposition off of that $7500 valuation misses an important point. The reason the trade-in value is so low is because of battery degradation and range limitation.
 
Nubo said:
johnlocke said:
While a 40 KWH upgrade path is great, They haven't disclosed the actual cost yet. If we're talking $6K for the battery and $1500 to install, that's more than I'm willing to spend on a $7500 car (last trade-in offer from Tesla on my car).
Click to expand...

Basing the value proposition off of that $7500 valuation misses an important point. The reason the trade-in value is so low is because of battery degradation and range limitation.
Click to expand...
But how much does the value increase when you install a new battery? Now if you could find a Leaf dirt cheap ( say $3000-$4000) with a highly degraded battery, replace it with a new 40 KWH, and drive it for another 4-5 years with minimal degradation, then you have something useful. But you still have the old electronics. If I take the $7500 trade-in and the $7500 i'd spend on the battery and put it down on a new model, I get a larger, better battery, the latest electronics, and a warranty on the whole car. I also get any state or federal rebates available. It will cost more than just replacing the battery would but there's a lot of value in the proposition.
 
Fenix is offering a 40 kWh battery. That's where I think this is killer.

If you bought a 3-4k leaf with an absolutely trashed battery, then you could, for $1500 installation have yourself a 150 mile range EV for $4.5-5.5k and $99/mth. Additionally, the battery is warrantied under the rental agreement--meaning that you'll never have to pay for a replacement battery again.

I understand wanting to have a new car, and warranty, and the value that provides. But for those of us who care about minimizing our transportation expenses, you really can't beat numbers like that. And my 2011 Leaf is still way more fun to drive than nearly every other car on the market.
 
johnlocke said:
Nubo said:
johnlocke said:
While a 40 KWH upgrade path is great, They haven't disclosed the actual cost yet. If we're talking $6K for the battery and $1500 to install, that's more than I'm willing to spend on a $7500 car (last trade-in offer from Tesla on my car).
Click to expand...

Basing the value proposition off of that $7500 valuation misses an important point. The reason the trade-in value is so low is because of battery degradation and range limitation.
Click to expand...
But how much does the value increase when you install a new battery? Now if you could find a Leaf dirt cheap ( say $3000-$4000) with a highly degraded battery, replace it with a new 40 KWH, and drive it for another 4-5 years with minimal degradation, then you have something useful. But you still have the old electronics. If I take the $7500 trade-in and the $7500 i'd spend on the battery and put it down on a new model, I get a larger, better battery, the latest electronics, and a warranty on the whole car. I also get any state or federal rebates available. It will cost more than just replacing the battery would but there's a lot of value in the proposition.
Click to expand...

Not that much.
The difference between a leaf with a fried 8 or 9 bar battery versus one with a newer warranty replacement was only 3 or 4 thousand dollars.
I figured there was no way I would be able to get a 12 bar battery in there for less than $3,000.
 
Lothsahn said:
Fenix is offering a 40 kWh battery. That's where I think this is killer.
Click to expand...
If they can do this, then yes I know a lot of 1st gen owners that want this. A lot of people aren't technical like us but they understand the math of paying $100 for a "like new" car they are familiar with instead of +$400/month for a different new/newer used car. They also understand that paying +$10k for the dealer to fix the range isn't feasible.
 
iirc, a 40 kwh pack would be $120 a month. Seems to me the price is $3/kwh. A rental option would work for a significant niche, especially the ones who are simply waiting for the technology to mature. With more uncertainty in the government than not, it's anyone's guess where incentives will go and who they will benefit most. Getting a cheap LEAF for $4-$5,000 is now doable. Lots of them out there simply because they are not really selling. A few DIY'ers out there and clueless bargain hunters, but no one else. Everyone is opting for more expensive, newer, more reliable, etc.

But if Fenix Systems does what they say they will do and it seems they are on the cusp of doing something here in next few weeks, then what do you think will happen to the "over" used LEAF market?

So it appears to me that the only ones benefiting are the ones who got in early, paid $30,000 after incentives and want more for their investment. How many of those are left? Its been nearly 8 to 9 years. I am guessing only a very small handful have held out that long.
 
Supposedly the Fenix guy is coming out with video NLT Sunday that "answers all the questions". Will be good to get some new info. Rooting for them, but still skeptical.

I don't even have an old Leaf (I have 2018) but might pick one up if I can get one cheap and the Fenix deal works out.
 
DaveinOlyWA said:
iirc, a 40 kwh pack would be $120 a month. Seems to me the price is $3/kwh. A rental option would work for a significant niche, especially the ones who are simply waiting for the technology to mature. With more uncertainty in the government than not, it's anyone's guess where incentives will go and who they will benefit most. Getting a cheap LEAF for $4-$5,000 is now doable. Lots of them out there simply because they are not really selling. A few DIY'ers out there and clueless bargain hunters, but no one else. Everyone is opting for more expensive, newer, more reliable, etc.

But if Fenix Systems does what they say they will do and it seems they are on the cusp of doing something here in next few weeks, then what do you think will happen to the "over" used LEAF market?

So it appears to me that the only ones benefiting are the ones who got in early, paid $30,000 after incentives and want more for their investment. How many of those are left? Its been nearly 8 to 9 years. I am guessing only a very small handful have held out that long.
Click to expand...
If you can find a $4000 Leaf and spend $1500 to have the battery replaced and then spend $120/mo for service, after five years you will have spent $7200 on the service and still do not own the battery. You would still need to find someone to agree to continue service or spend $1500 to have a Nissan battery put back in. Under those circumstances, I doubt you could get much for the car. As a short term solution where you only need a couple of more years out of the car and are low on cash, it could make sense if you don't mind walking away from the car. $5500 for the car and $120/mo to drive it for while. A couple of grand when you sell it on to the next person ( remember that they have to take over the lease) or you just give the car back to Fenix and let them deal with it? A 12 year old Leaf with a small clapped out battery won't be worth much anyway.
 
johnlocke said:
DaveinOlyWA said:
iirc, a 40 kwh pack would be $120 a month. Seems to me the price is $3/kwh. A rental option would work for a significant niche, especially the ones who are simply waiting for the technology to mature. With more uncertainty in the government than not, it's anyone's guess where incentives will go and who they will benefit most. Getting a cheap LEAF for $4-$5,000 is now doable. Lots of them out there simply because they are not really selling. A few DIY'ers out there and clueless bargain hunters, but no one else. Everyone is opting for more expensive, newer, more reliable, etc.

But if Fenix Systems does what they say they will do and it seems they are on the cusp of doing something here in next few weeks, then what do you think will happen to the "over" used LEAF market?

So it appears to me that the only ones benefiting are the ones who got in early, paid $30,000 after incentives and want more for their investment. How many of those are left? Its been nearly 8 to 9 years. I am guessing only a very small handful have held out that long.
Click to expand...
If you can find a $4000 Leaf and spend $1500 to have the battery replaced and then spend $120/mo for service, after five years you will have spent $7200 on the service and still do not own the battery. You would still need to find someone to agree to continue service or spend $1500 to have a Nissan battery put back in. Under those circumstances, I doubt you could get much for the car. As a short term solution where you only need a couple of more years out of the car and are low on cash, it could make sense if you don't mind walking away from the car. $5500 for the car and $120/mo to drive it for while. A couple of grand when you sell it on to the next person ( remember that they have to take over the lease) or you just give the car back to Fenix and let them deal with it? A 12 year old Leaf with a small clapped out battery won't be worth much anyway.
Click to expand...

Comments based on using the car as some sort of investment tool is really nonsensical. If you drove 15,000 a year which is middle low end discounting people who drive little or not at all, that is 16.9 cents a mile basic cost based on your 5 year scenario.

Verses... a new EV with average price in the mid to low 30's after incentives (if you qualify for all that) meaning you match the above TCO when you hit about 200,000 miles. ($32000)

Now we are comparing new to used so there is an expectation of a price premium but no finance charges are considered along with the other "perks" of owning new verses used. So, I am ignoring the fact that longer time frames have escalating costs, higher insurance, loan costs, maintenance costs etc...

So the Fenix plan doesn't work for you but it is still a good solution
 
DaveinOlyWA said:
...
So the Fenix plan doesn't work for you but it is still a good solution
Click to expand...

Qualifying that you are only talking about a good Financial solution--but what about Technical?

i would suggest that it is not trivial to build, manage and control a multitude of small cylindrical cells in parallel. There are numerous accounts on other forums of garage and home fires by diy electric vehicle guys trying to build their own packs like this. Tesla may be the only OEM doing this, and they use plenty of countermeasures in hardware (individual cell fuses) and electronics, including 24/7 active cell monitoring in order to provide a safe solution.

It seems that most other OEMs are using series strings of large capacity prismatic cells.

Nissan is the odd-ball here in that they are using series strings of 2 pouch cells in parallel but with no individual cell fuses. It may be that a weaker chemistry and the metal module cannisters were chosen to compensate for this lack of a safety feature.

What is the level of knowledge, skills, abilities and experience of Fenix Power with respect to the design, management and control of packs built up of small cylindrical cells in parallel?

Who is going to design and build the circuit boards necessary for monitoring the cells and control of the pack?

And how is this new pack going to be integrated with the current operating system of the Leaf?
 
DaveinOlyWA said:
johnlocke said:
DaveinOlyWA said:
iirc, a 40 kwh pack would be $120 a month. Seems to me the price is $3/kwh. A rental option would work for a significant niche, especially the ones who are simply waiting for the technology to mature. With more uncertainty in the government than not, it's anyone's guess where incentives will go and who they will benefit most. Getting a cheap LEAF for $4-$5,000 is now doable. Lots of them out there simply because they are not really selling. A few DIY'ers out there and clueless bargain hunters, but no one else. Everyone is opting for more expensive, newer, more reliable, etc.

But if Fenix Systems does what they say they will do and it seems they are on the cusp of doing something here in next few weeks, then what do you think will happen to the "over" used LEAF market?

So it appears to me that the only ones benefiting are the ones who got in early, paid $30,000 after incentives and want more for their investment. How many of those are left? Its been nearly 8 to 9 years. I am guessing only a very small handful have held out that long.
Click to expand...
If you can find a $4000 Leaf and spend $1500 to have the battery replaced and then spend $120/mo for service, after five years you will have spent $7200 on the service and still do not own the battery. You would still need to find someone to agree to continue service or spend $1500 to have a Nissan battery put back in. Under those circumstances, I doubt you could get much for the car. As a short term solution where you only need a couple of more years out of the car and are low on cash, it could make sense if you don't mind walking away from the car. $5500 for the car and $120/mo to drive it for while. A couple of grand when you sell it on to the next person ( remember that they have to take over the lease) or you just give the car back to Fenix and let them deal with it? A 12 year old Leaf with a small clapped out battery won't be worth much anyway.
Click to expand...

Comments based on using the car as some sort of investment tool is really nonsensical. If you drove 15,000 a year which is middle low end discounting people who drive little or not at all, that is 16.9 cents a mile basic cost based on your 5 year scenario.

Verses... a new EV with average price in the mid to low 30's after incentives (if you qualify for all that) meaning you match the above TCO when you hit about 200,000 miles. ($32000)

Now we are comparing new to used so there is an expectation of a price premium but no finance charges are considered along with the other "perks" of owning new verses used. So, I am ignoring the fact that longer time frames have escalating costs, higher insurance, loan costs, maintenance costs etc...

So the Fenix plan doesn't work for you but it is still a good solution
Click to expand...
I never look at a car as an investment. It's an expense and the general objective is to minimize the over all expense. In the ideal scenario you would buy a 3 year old car coming off lease. The lessee has taken the depreciation hit and the car still has relatively low miles on it. Then you drive it till the wheels fall off. This does't work so well for EV's however because the technology is advancing so rapidly that even a 3 year old EV is outdated compared to a new model EV.

By the way, I went back and looked at Fenix's plan again. You can buy a battery outright, you can buy a battery with a service plan, or you can lease a battery. Battery is listed at $5K plus installation. If you buy the battery, the service plan appears to be$99/mo. If you lease the battery, the plan costs$199/mo. Since Fenix just announced their new 40 KWH battery plan those prices may have changed. In any case leasing a battery will still cost $1500 for installation and $2400/year. The costs add up quickly. Leasing over 5 years costs you $13500 just for the battery. Just buying the battery costs $6500 and you have to hope it lasts as long as possible. Buying the battery with a service plan costs you $12500 over 5 years but you own the battery and can discontinue the service plan at any time. None of these plans are particularly cheap.
 
johnlocke said:
I never look at a car as an investment. It's an expense and the general objective is to minimize the over all expense. In the ideal scenario you would buy a 3 year old car coming off lease. The lessee has taken the depreciation hit and the car still has relatively low miles on it. Then you drive it till the wheels fall off. This does't work so well for EV's however because the technology is advancing so rapidly that even a 3 year old EV is outdated compared to a new model EV.

By the way, I went back and looked at Fenix's plan again. You can buy a battery outright, you can buy a battery with a service plan, or you can lease a battery. Battery is listed at $5K plus installation. If you buy the battery, the service plan appears to be$99/mo. If you lease the battery, the plan costs$199/mo. Since Fenix just announced their new 40 KWH battery plan those prices may have changed. In any case leasing a battery will still cost $1500 for installation and $2400/year. The costs add up quickly. Leasing over 5 years costs you $13500 just for the battery. Just buying the battery costs $6500 and you have to hope it lasts as long as possible. Buying the battery with a service plan costs you $12500 over 5 years but you own the battery and can discontinue the service plan at any time. None of these plans are particularly cheap.
Click to expand...

You got your numbers mixed up. You can:
1) Buy the batteries for $6k+installation ($1500) OR
2) Buy the batteries over time for $1500+$200/mth financed. Once paid off, there will be a small monthly charge (no pricing provided) OR
3) Subscribe. $1500+$99/mth forever

In the 3rd model, the battery is expected to lose 3-4% capacity between checkups, with lower performing modules being replaced as the capacity drops. Battery modules are replaced as they degrade.

Info here:
https://fenix.systems/leafbattery
 
Lothsahn said:
johnlocke said:
I never look at a car as an investment. It's an expense and the general objective is to minimize the over all expense. In the ideal scenario you would buy a 3 year old car coming off lease. The lessee has taken the depreciation hit and the car still has relatively low miles on it. Then you drive it till the wheels fall off. This does't work so well for EV's however because the technology is advancing so rapidly that even a 3 year old EV is outdated compared to a new model EV.

By the way, I went back and looked at Fenix's plan again. You can buy a battery outright, you can buy a battery with a service plan, or you can lease a battery. Battery is listed at $5K plus installation. If you buy the battery, the service plan appears to be$99/mo. If you lease the battery, the plan costs$199/mo. Since Fenix just announced their new 40 KWH battery plan those prices may have changed. In any case leasing a battery will still cost $1500 for installation and $2400/year. The costs add up quickly. Leasing over 5 years costs you $13500 just for the battery. Just buying the battery costs $6500 and you have to hope it lasts as long as possible. Buying the battery with a service plan costs you $12500 over 5 years but you own the battery and can discontinue the service plan at any time. None of these plans are particularly cheap.
Click to expand...

You got your numbers mixed up. You can:
1) Buy the batteries for $6k+installation ($1500) OR
2) Buy the batteries over time for $1500+$200/mth financed. Once paid off, there will be a small monthly charge (no pricing provided) OR
3) Subscribe. $1500+$99/mth forever

In the 3rd model, the battery is expected to lose 3-4% capacity between checkups, with lower performing modules being replaced as the capacity drops. Battery modules are replaced as they degrade.

Info here:
https://fenix.systems/leafbattery
Click to expand...
My mistake, That would make the subscription plan $7500 over 5 years. You don't own the battery and need to find someone to take over the subscription or face $1500 to re-install a used Nissan battery. Buying outright is also $7500 and you own the battery. Can't really calculate the lease option as they are pretty vague about the costs. They never actually price the service option. At a guess, it's not more than $99/mo but probably not a lot cheaper than that either. Like I said, if you can find a Leaf cheap enough and are willing to walk away from it at the end, the subscription model could work for you. I suspect that most people would rather spend the same money on a newer used Leaf and get the balance of the warranty. If Fenix has properly designed the cooling system for the battery so the battery can last 100,00 miles or more then buying a replacement battery outright and driving the car until the new battery fails might be an option. After all If you can drive the car for another 7-8 years, that's long enough to save up for either another battery or a down on something else.
 
johnlocke said:
My mistake, That would make the subscription plan $7500 over 5 years. You don't own the battery and need to find someone to take over the subscription or face $1500 to re-install a used Nissan battery. Buying outright is also $7500 and you own the battery. Can't really calculate the lease option as they are pretty vague about the costs. They never actually price the service option. At a guess, it's not more than $99/mo but probably not a lot cheaper than that either. Like I said, if you can find a Leaf cheap enough and are willing to walk away from it at the end, the subscription model could work for you. I suspect that most people would rather spend the same money on a newer used Leaf and get the balance of the warranty. If Fenix has properly designed the cooling system for the battery so the battery can last 100,00 miles or more then buying a replacement battery outright and driving the car until the new battery fails might be an option. After all If you can drive the car for another 7-8 years, that's long enough to save up for either another battery or a down on something else.
Click to expand...

Very possibly. You could buy a used Leaf for the same price as the Fenix battery over 5 years ($7500). That said, the Fenix battery is 40 kWh compared to 24 kWh for a used Leaf. If you compare to 40 kWh Leafs, there's none available for anywhere close. The lowest 2018 on cars.com is $20k. If you pay $3500 for a Leaf with an absolutely trashed battery+the Fenix battery, that's a savings of $9000 over 5 years.

I agree it's not for everyone. But I do think it's reasonably priced and a compelling option now that it provides an upgrade for existing Leafs to give them a 150 mile range. The difference in utility been 75 and 150 miles is huge.

The real question is: Will we ever see it, and will it work? Up until a couple months ago, I would say it didn't look likely. But there has been some progress recently, so we'll see...

Disclosure: I have a reservation with Fenix, but no other financial interest with them.
 
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