Battery Upgrades are very possible

knightmb said:

Best news I've read this year! :mrgreen:
Is the gateway device easily upgradable should you need to make future tweaks? At least in the sense that it can upgraded some other way than device replacement.

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We'll be releasing official firmwares anybody can flash via the USB port, and you can program it to your heart's content from a public repo that we're purposefully going to denounce so people can do stupid **** with it. There's a lot of fun but completely uninsurable modifications you can do to the car using the CAN bridge (like modifying the pedal response, adding features like Tesla's summon, etc.)

Edit: and when it's either bricked or if you want to do more than just flash programming, there's a PDI port on the CAN bridge that allows direct programming of the microcontroller. The MCU is an ATXmega32C4 running bare metal code (no RTOS or anything).

I plan to ship our 2011 Leaf SLe to Europe this summer. With the battery down below 60%, it will need a new battery to be a useful car there. Does anybody if is better to do the upgrade here in US or do it there in Eastern Europe. Labor will be cheaper there, but I am not sure what the logistic of moving a battery across EU countries are. How does the cost of a 40kWh or 62kWh battery compares between US an EU?

The US salvage yards tend to not understand the value of batteries, so they are often extremely expensive or surprisingly cheap with little consistency in between.

Used batteries are MUCH more common in Europe though, but the prices are fairly well-established now.

There is barely any labor involved in swapping the battery so I don't imagine that is going to be a big concern. Any car workshop will do that in an hour. If you use my mod, the 2011 does need some soldering work on the wiring which likely is the most time consuming part.

mux: Does "some soldering work on the wiring" on the 2011 Leaf involve only wiring under/behind the dashboard? And is there any reason (after your device is sufficiently evolved/debugged, perhaps) not to have it installed in advance, so that the pack swap is the only step left (when a 40 kWh pack eventually becomes available)?

mux said:

It was a known issue with our firmware for 40kWh swaps, I recently fixed it (at least for the 40kWh swap on DBT fast chargers) and hopefully that fix will work for Daklein too. He's compiling and flashing the latest version shortly I think.

The reason this happens is that DBT, Efacec and possibly some other chargers are programmed to terminate a charge at 100% indicated charge level. The Leaf has 4 (!) internal SOC states, two of which we modify with our firmware and two of which until recently were either unmodified or wrong in some sense. The car interprets those values as 100% (or, well, more than 100% if the new battery capacity is way more than the car is programmed to handle), forwards this over QC CAN and then the charger thinks 'hey, why are you trying to charge, you're full already!' and either fails the charge with a communication error or initiates and immediately stops the session.

As the three sub-generations of Nissan leaf with the old body style all use a slightly different way to calculate and display SOH in various places, this is a bit of a headache to properly fix. It is also fundamentally unfixable on the first generation (2010-13), so we employ a workaround that messes with Leaf Spy Pro data.

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Wow, interesting. This is yet another thing the Fenix Power and other folks (embarking on similar things) I guess might need to deal with.

Sorry, I've not been following this thread but noticed that it's crazy that Daklein has a 62 kWh pack in a gen 1 Leaf. :ugeek: I noticed some discussion of heights and clearance earlier. I posted about what I'd learned about height and ground clearance differences with Plus vs 40 kWh non-Plus before it went on sale in the US at https://www.mynissanleaf.com/viewtopic.php?p=545740#p545740.

MikeD said:

mux: Does "some soldering work on the wiring" on the 2011 Leaf involve only wiring under/behind the dashboard? And is there any reason (after your device is sufficiently evolved/debugged, perhaps) not to have it installed in advance, so that the pack swap is the only step left (when a 40 kWh pack eventually becomes available)?

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Yeah - we're currently choosing to do the soldering near the VCM. The main issue keeping us from having a completely plug&play solution for the gen1 Leaf is the lack of connectorization and the impossible to procure connectors on both the battery pack and VCM itself. So the only way to interrupt the CAN bus is to literally cut it in half and solder our own connector onto there. Furthermore, the only place where a connectorized solution *could* sit is directly onto the battery connector, which is outside the car making firmware updates via, say, a USB cable challenging.

We're not just going for trivial stuff like swapping batteries. We want to keep updating and upgrading the cars. The Leaf is going to get 70kW+ DC fast charging, gen1 is going to get B mode, etc. etc. You can't sit still in an environment of ever more competitive and interesting new cars. We don't want anybody to be (sufficiently) tempted to buy a new car.

Ultimately there is no other solution than cutting and soldering that enables all the features we want. We'll try to make the process as painless as possible with a proper IDC splice eventually.

mux said:

MikeD said:

mux: Does "some soldering work on the wiring" on the 2011 Leaf involve only wiring under/behind the dashboard? And is there any reason (after your device is sufficiently evolved/debugged, perhaps) not to have it installed in advance, so that the pack swap is the only step left (when a 40 kWh pack eventually becomes available)?

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Yeah - we're currently choosing to do the soldering near the VCM. The main issue keeping us from having a completely plug&play solution for the gen1 Leaf is the lack of connectorization and the impossible to procure connectors on both the battery pack and VCM itself. So the only way to interrupt the CAN bus is to literally cut it in half and solder our own connector onto there. Furthermore, the only place where a connectorized solution *could* sit is directly onto the battery connector, which is outside the car making firmware updates via, say, a USB cable challenging.

We're not just going for trivial stuff like swapping batteries. We want to keep updating and upgrading the cars. The Leaf is going to get 70kW+ DC fast charging, gen1 is going to get B mode, etc. etc. You can't sit still in an environment of ever more competitive and interesting new cars. We don't want anybody to be (sufficiently) tempted to buy a new car.

Ultimately there is no other solution than cutting and soldering that enables all the features we want. We'll try to make the process as painless as possible with a proper IDC splice eventually.

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Mux,

Could you 3d print the necessary connectors?

mux: I don't see soldering wires as much of an issue for me, if it's just identifying a number of colored wires using sufficiently clear instructions. I do have a concern if Nissan dealerships would refuse making any repairs on such modified Leafs on parts that most people and/or repair shops don't have the tools/skills for (like heating/AC, master cylinder perhaps, etc). I guess we soon learn if that is issue (if it's not yet known). Anyway it might be well to stockpile a few relatively inexpensive (currently available either new/used) essential spare parts that are known to cause trouble eventually (but this may be a very small list for the 2011).

Lothsahn said:

Mux,

Could you 3d print the necessary connectors?

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Wouldn't solve the problem - there are no connectors to 3D print. It's a straight wire from VCM E61 to battery B24. Putting the board in between the VCM and the wiring harness will mess with other devices on the EV-CAN bus, putting it into B24 would place it physically outside with all the issues that causes.

@MikeD: So we've been doing conversions for a year now, talking to a bunch of people and having cars serviced, repairs done, etc.

Nobody cares. Nobody even notices. Not even the high voltage splice has been noticed on earth bonding plate replacements, and that's a massive big 3D printed shell with orange tape and warning labels sitting within centimeters of their face at that point. They didn't even care with an MOT checkup that I had fatal battery DTCs showing up (I *just* did my battery swap at that point and had some serious bugs). Not to say they weren't doing their job, on the contrary - all they care about is safety. If it's all done in a safe and responsible manner, you can mod you car to hell and they'll happily take your money to work on it. That's been our experience so far.

And from the insurer's side: they don't understand anything we do so they're fine with it so far. It's probably going to take one big widely publicized fuckup for anything to happen in this space. Once that happens, we'll be at the forefront of tackling whatever regulations and standards will be thrown into the fold to symbolically do something about it.

mux said:

There is barely any labor involved in swapping the battery so I don't imagine that is going to be a big concern. Any car workshop will do that in an hour. If you use my mod, the 2011 does need some soldering work on the wiring which likely is the most time consuming part.

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Is that specifically for the 2011 or all Gen1 (2011-2013? ) 2014? Not sure which is which generation.

It is for all generation 1 Leafs and all e-NV200s.

The generations can be distinguished as:
- Generation 1: 24kWh only, light interior, manufactured 2010-2013(ish)
- Generation 2: 24kWh only, dark interior, manufactured 2013-2017(ish)
- Generation 3: 30kWh only, dark interior, manufactured 2016-2017
- Generation 4: 40 or 60kWh, new exterior style, manufactured 2017+

This is how Nissan distinguishes the 'generations' in their engineering and workshop documentation. But it's quite confusing, as different communities and language areas tend to call them differently. Gen1 is often called the Japan(ese) Leaf, the British and Irish tend to call them MY[XX] leafs and are on a 1-year delayed schedule due to RHD, gen2/3 is usually lumped together even though the batteries are worlds apart and best of all, Nissan has made gen2 Leafs with gen1 VCM firmware, so you get *some* gen2 leafs with 80% charge timers and that kind of stuff. But for the purposes of battery swaps, that's all you need to know.

Generation 1: 24kWh only, light interior, manufactured 2010-2013(ish)

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The cutoff for US-built Leafs, chemistry-wise, is March of 2013. Leafs built from April 2013 on - possibly excepting a tiny handful of cars - have the improved chemistry. The "Gen 1.5" Leafs with the old chemistry, made from January through March of 2013, seem to use the same battery cases as the cars with the later, improved chemistry, although I'm not 100% sure of that.

I'm happy enough now with the covers, finished up over the weekend. They cover all the way out to the body seam nicely and will do a better job than the original covers, or the proper covers on a plus car, IMHO. Granted the most professional look would be to score the wider and deeper covers for a 62 pack, along with the pack, if you're lucky.

The 24-40 pack covers are not as wider along the sides (wider forward side mounting flanges on the 62 pack), so they don't cover out as far, and don't lay flat on the outboard edges, nor reach the outboard cover mounting holes on the 62 pack. So the outboard edges hang down (at first, in the earlier pictures).

Some of the mounting bolt and pushpin holes line up at the front and rear edges of the pack, between my original covers and the 62 pack. In the middle areas of the pack, I drilled extra holes in the covers to line up with mounting spots on the battery.

The front battery cover would fit just about fine, except for the low cowcatcher I added in front of the battery. I was able to bolt the rear of the cover to the original mounting points at the front of the battery, and bend the cover under the cowcatcher bar and up to the forward cover mount points. The front of the cover is secured with zipties instead of pushpins, since it doesn't quite reach that now longer distance.

After getting the existing covers on to this point, I made additional covering along the sides. These hold up the edge of the original battery covers, and reach all the way out to the body seam. White coroplast was available, and some other metal bits to hold that up, using existing holes along the battery mounting flange, and an extra hole at the front and rear. The side covers also take care of the narrower section of the forward battery cover, ramping down over the cowcatcher bar. Maybe I'll spray can the covers black when it's warm out. Or make a better version of it, after seeing how these work out. Even as is, it looks fine beyond a few feet away. At arms length, then it looks a little homemade.

There's definitely lower ground clearance! I didn't measure, but about 4-5 inches I guess. I also didn't measure trim heights before and after, but it looks like closer fender gaps than before. Sporty! I can take lowering springs off the wish list. Maybe some larger wheel & tire set would get better ground clearance and fill up the fenders better.

Added pictures of the covers here: https://photos.app.goo.gl/tcVLm3SHCtozeLSa6

I wonder if that lower pack improves overall aerodynamics?

mux said:

It is for all generation 1 Leafs and all e-NV200s.

The generations can be distinguished as:
- Generation 1: 24kWh only, light interior, manufactured 2010-2013(ish)
- Generation 2: 24kWh only, dark interior, manufactured 2013-2017(ish)
- Generation 3: 30kWh only, dark interior, manufactured 2016-2017
...

This is how Nissan distinguishes the 'generations' in their engineering and workshop documentation. But it's quite confusing, as different communities and language areas tend to call them differently. Gen1 is often called the Japan(ese) Leaf, the British and Irish tend to call them MY[XX] leafs and are on a 1-year delayed schedule due to RHD, gen2/3 is usually lumped together even though the batteries are worlds apart and best of all, Nissan has made gen2 Leafs with gen1 VCM firmware, so you get *some* gen2 leafs with 80% charge timers and that kind of stuff. But for the purposes of battery swaps, that's all you need to know.

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For the US market, the '11 and '12 Leafs were ONLY available in light cloth interior (for both trims: SV and SL) and had the "3.3 kW" OBC in the back under the hump: https://www.mynissanleaf.com/viewtopic.php?f=8&t=3010. Those cars were Made in Japan (MIJ), had the crap water block heater and so on. They also had marker lights on the 2 front fenders.

For model years '13 to '17, all US market Leaf shifted to being assembled in the US (Smyrna, TN), the OBC got moved to the front as part of the PDM stack, motor design changed, etc. The front fender marker lights went away. They're not a legal requirement in the US.
https://web.archive.org/web/20130726113108/http://www.sae.org/mags/aei/11993/
http://sfbayleafs.org/news/2013/01/2013-nissan-leaf-product-highlights/
http://sfbayleafs.org/commentary/2013/09/2013-vs-2011-nissan-leaf-whats-new-whats-gone-whats-changed/

What you refer to as gen 2 and 3 in the above were (for the US) NOT only in dark interiors. I can't speak to '16 and '17 for sure but '13 to '15 SV were definitely available in light cloth or dark cloth interior. '13 to '17 S trims (lowest trim w/no nav) which began w/model year '13 were ONLY available with black cloth interior. '13 to '17 SL were ONLY available in black leather interior.

My former '13 Leaf SV w/both packages had a light cloth interior. My current used '13 SV w/premium has black cloth interior.

Yeah, all '17 model year US Leafs were 30 kWh. '16 SL and '16 SV were 30 kWh. '16 S was 24 kWh until the '16 "S 30" came out (https://www.greencarreports.com/news/1106593_nissan-leaf-s-quietly-gets-30-kwh-battery-upgrade-higher-price).

But yeah, I hear you about your confusion. It's not surprising.

So anyone in the US with a Leaf made in TN should not need to cut into the cables? My Leaf is 2013 SV, built in September of that year, so no splicing needed?

knightmb said:

So anyone in the US with a Leaf made in TN should not need to cut into the cables? My Leaf is 2013 SV, built in September of that year, so no splicing needed?

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I can't answer that, but you have what he and Nissan call "Generation 2."

I have no problem cutting into a vehicles vcm harness. Wouldn't be the first time.
In new Mexico USA we don't do any personal vehicle inspections, pretty much anything goes. Even if your vehicle catches on fire while driving as long as there aren't any unusual explosions the authorities won't even try to investigate.

I've been following the recent postings/discussion with great interest.
I'm not that concerned with splicing/soldering requirement for the Gen 1's (of which I am one): I think the bigger issues are locating a (qualified) pack and a local shop to do the work. I'm encouraged that Mux is willing to "export" the parts/procedure, because I can't imagine they could handle an entire continents' worth of Leafs.

I'm fine with splicing too, just want to be prepared. I live in Leaf city where thousands are rolling around everywhere I look (Nissan HQ) and the junk yards are overflowing with wrecked Leafs. :mrgreen: