Frustrations with Public Charging Stations

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Who it not be easier to collect fees on the backend? This is a common practice. In some of the apartments I lived, having assigned covered parking, access to gym, storage, etc. was extra billed on the rent. This would be the easiest especially since RFID cards are so cheap and easy to make these days.
 
DaveinOlyWA said:
EVGO is free in Colorado?

No, sorry, I was referring to the free (rather than monthly subscription) EVGo membership. I saw one EVGo L3 on PlugShare that may possibly be free (upscale grocery host).

Glad to hear that not everyone's only out for the destination. *Cue Aerosmith's "Amazing"*
 
johnlocke said:
As a former landlord, I can tell you that as soon as the charging companies give a cut of the action to the landlord, you'll see charging stations stations in the parking lots. It's like a coin op laundry in the building. The charging company pays for the installation and provides the chargers. They pay the landlord for the electricity and a cut of the profits. The landlord gets a perk for the tenants and makes some money.

The key is building a business case. Yes landlords get a cut of the coin op laundry, but they also realize that not having on site laundry facilities will make it harder to rent units, as it has become an expected facility. We aren't there yet with EVs as most perspective tenants don't need a charging station.

Also, most buildings were built with infrastructure in place for a laundry room (the room was plumed and wired during construction), so it makes it much cheaper to install the machines (you just plug them in and connect the hoses). With charging stations, the electrical infrastructure isn't there yet, so someone will have to pay for that.

The other factor is a few laundry machines are shared by many tenants, so their cost is amortized amongst many users. It is harder to have communal charging stations as tenants are less likely to want to have to move their car once it has finished charging (especially if it is in the middle of the night), so the expectation would be to have their own, dedicated charging station. Also, due to longer charging times and more frequent charging, they may need more charging stations on a per user basis. Due to lack of space for communal charging stations, they may end up needing to go with more expensive DC Fast chargers.
 
The best solution to the above issues, IMO, is a dedicated 20-30 amp parking area outlet for x percent of apartments, with maybe a cheap, hardwired L-2 EVSE thrown in as a perk.
 
LeftieBiker said:
The best solution to the above issues, IMO, is a dedicated 20-30 amp parking area outlet for x percent of apartments, with maybe a cheap, hardwired L-2 EVSE thrown in as a perk.

While the number of circuits needed for EVs is low, this could work, as they could be added to an existing electrical panel. It does create a risk of tenants creating a cheater plug that will draw more current than the circuit is designed for (it might trip the breaker, but that also creates more work or the superintendent). It also makes it more difficult to monitor and control the amount of electricity a tenant uses.

As the demand for EV charging grows, they will need a new, significantly larger panel, likely with a new connection to the grid. This would be very expensive and it would likely be cheaper to provide EVSEs so that multiple stations can be shared on one breaker, allowing them to significantly reduce the size and capacity of the panel and the connection to the grid. This would then allow them to have different charging packages, that will throttle the charge at different rates, depending on the tenant's needs and what they are willing to pay for (similar to what ISPs do). The installation and management of this would likely be subcontracted to a third party.
 
Lothsahn said:
I don't see why it makes any sense to build out this infrastructure in most cases. In general, people will just charge at where they live (home, apartment, etc) and use L3 for long distance travel. I do see certain use cases, such as hotels, where L2 charging is likely to be common, but I'm not sure the cost will be justified for the other use cases, especially long-term parking lots such as at an airport, where the utilization of the charger will be extremely low (car charges initially, then sits for a week wasting the charger).

I have been thinking more about this, and I think that is very location dependant. For airports (and train stations) in the sunny south, you may be correct, but here in the great white north, things are a bit different.

For those not familiar, according to the 2019 Leaf Owners manual (pg. EV-5):
LI-ION BATTERY WARMER (IF SO EQUIPPED)
! CAUTION
The Li-ion battery warmer does not operate if the available Li-ion battery charge is less than approximately 15% and the charger is not connected to the vehicle. To help prevent the Li-ion battery from freezing, do not leave the vehicle in an environment if temperatures may go below -1°F (-17°C) unless the vehicle is connected to a charger.

The Li-ion battery warmer helps to prevent the Li-ion battery from freezing and helps to prevent significant reductions in the Li-ion battery output when the temperature is cold. The Li-ion battery warmer automatically turns on when the Li-ion battery temperature is approximately -1°F (-17°C) or colder. The Li-ion battery warmer automatically turns off when the Li-ion battery temperature is approximately 14°F (-10°C) or higher.

Now from what I have read, the battery warmer only uses about 300W of electricity, but if it needed to run continuously, that would be over 7kW per day. Given a 5 day cold streak (not unheard of), you could be down 28kW just from keeping the battery warm. When you factor in a 40% reduction in range in winter, that could be problematic. Even worse, if it drops you down below 15% SOC, your car could be bricked until it warms up or you can plug it in.

Even a 6A (700W) trickle charger would be enough to prevent that from happening and would still give you a bit of a charge. They could give everyone a 120V 15A outlet, but that is a lot less convenient (especially in cold weather) and it would require them to have double the number of circuits, which costs money. Providing charging stations rather than just an outlet, allows them to better monitor and manage the power output.

An interesting alternative would be to have small V2G chargers. Since for long term storage, it is best to keep your vehicle between 30 & 50% SOC, they could drain your battery down to that range when they need the power, and keep it in that range. You could program in your return flight information (or better yet booking reference in case your itinerary changes) and they could then ensure your vehicle is charged back up to your desired level (ex. 80% or 100%) when you return.

One way or another, long-term parking lots in cold climates need to have a method of charging.
 
roger1818 said:
One way or another, long-term parking lots in cold climates need to have a method of charging.
A plain old 120V/15A output, to provide level 1 / trickle charge level 1.

In 2-3 days you car is fully charged, and then it provides enough power for the battery warmer. I think the cost of extra circuits is a wash compared to the cost of the EVSEs (*) and in the long time, the outlets will be less of a maintenance issue than EVSEs.

(*) at work we put in 20 EVSEs on 40A circuits. The facilities guy showed me the cost breakdown and it individual circuits were the primary cost, compared to the $800 clipper creek units.
 
jlv said:
roger1818 said:
One way or another, long-term parking lots in cold climates need to have a method of charging.
Trickle charge level 1 (120V/15A).
In 2-3 days you car is fully charged, and then it provides enough power for the battery warmer.

To get 15A continuous, you would need a 20A circuit (you could actually get 16A). The maximum continuous current off of a 15A circuit is 12A. My suggestion is 6A charging stations would be adequate for a long-term parking, and would allow 2 charging stations (or one double station) per 15A circuit. It would probably take 4-6 days to get a full charge if empty though and still provide enough power for the battery warmer.

A level 2 EVSE is a silly waste.

Agreed. That is why I suggested a 120V/6A 700W (i.e. 0.7kW) Trickle charger in my previous post.

They could possibly have different powers of charging stations at different daily rates for people to choose from, based on their needs (it would be one way to charge a premium for the best spots).
 
It looks like you modified your post after I started to reply to it. Here is my response to your modifications:

jlv said:
I think the cost of extra circuits is a wash compared to the cost of the EVSEs (*) and in the long time, the outlets will be less of a maintenance issue than EVSEs.

(*) at work we put in 20 EVSEs on 40A circuits. The facilities guy showed me the cost breakdown and it individual circuits were the primary cost, compared to the $800 clipper creek units.

As production volume increases, the cost of EVSEs will go down. OTOH, the new circuit panel(s) required to add hundreds of circuits (and all of the wiring that goes with it) is a mature technology and the cost won't go down.

NOTE: I am not talking about today, when, when less than 1% of vehicles on the road are BEVs, but in a decade or so, when the majority of vehicles are BEVs.
 
It will take a lot more than a decade for BEVs to be the majority of vehicles, as just replacing the existing LDV fleet in the U.S. (270.4 million a/o 2017), assuming all ICE sales were forbidden from today, would take about 16 years assuming average sales of 17 million a year (2018 sales 17.2 million). As no such ban is likely anytime soon it will take a lot longer, absent a wholesale switch to MaaS car/ride-sharing that would radically reduce the total number of vehicles in the fleet.
 
GRA said:
It will take a lot more than a decade for BEVs to be the majority of vehicles, as just replacing the existing LDV fleet in the U.S. (270.4 million a/o 2017), assuming all ICE sales were forbidden from today, would take about 16 years assuming average sales of 17 million a year (2018 sales 17.2 million). As no such ban is likely anytime soon it will take a lot longer, absent a wholesale switch to MaaS car/ride-sharing that would radically reduce the total number of vehicles in the fleet.

I did say a decade or so. Using stats for the entire US isn't that appropriate considering we are talking about northern locations where battery heaters are necessary. Those places typically use a lot salt on the road and thus cars rust out a lot faster. Here we are lucky to get 10 years out of a car.

Clean Energy Canada did a poll and found some interesting results (found here). One stat was that 56% of Canadians believe EVs will be the majority in less than 10 years. Now just because they believe it, doesn't mean it will happen, but it is telling.

Another interesting stat from that study is that 10% of Canadians are certain their next car will be an EV, additional 14% are very likely and 30% are "inclined" to.
 
roger1818 said:
GRA said:
It will take a lot more than a decade for BEVs to be the majority of vehicles, as just replacing the existing LDV fleet in the U.S. (270.4 million a/o 2017), assuming all ICE sales were forbidden from today, would take about 16 years assuming average sales of 17 million a year (2018 sales 17.2 million). As no such ban is likely anytime soon it will take a lot longer, absent a wholesale switch to MaaS car/ride-sharing that would radically reduce the total number of vehicles in the fleet.

I did say a decade or so. Using stats for the entire US isn't that appropriate considering we are talking about northern locations where battery heaters are necessary. Those places typically use a lot salt on the road and thus cars rust out a lot faster. Here we are lucky to get 10 years out of a car.

Clean Energy Canada did a poll and found some interesting results (found here). One stat was that 56% of Canadians believe EVs will be the majority in less than 10 years. Now just because they believe it, doesn't mean it will happen, but it is telling.

Another interesting stat from that study is that 10% of Canadians are certain their next car will be an EV, additional 14% are very likely and 30% are "inclined" to.


I know that you qualified it by stating "a decade or so", just pointing out that it's far more of "or so" than "decade". You also note the difference between what people believe and what actually happens - there are lots of similar polls in the U.S. and elsewhere, saying that a large % and sometimes a majority of people will consider or are certain a BEV will be their next car, but when it comes time to spend their own money, only a small fraction of them actually buy one. Until the numbers in those surveys show a better correlation with reality, it's essentially just window-shopping.
 
GRA said:
I know that you qualified it by stating "a decade or so", just pointing out that it's far more of "or so" than "decade". You also note the difference between what people believe and what actually happens - there are lots of similar polls in the U.S. and elsewhere, saying that a large % and sometimes a majority of people will consider or are certain a BEV will be their next car, but when it comes time to spend their own money, only a small fraction of them actually buy one. Until the numbers in those surveys show a better correlation with reality, it's essentially just window-shopping.

I agree that 10 years is a bit optimistic, but I feel 20 years is a bit pessimistic. I expect it will be somewhere between the two.

Once we get to price parity (which many expect to be in about 5 years), the sales of BEVs will increase sharply. Why wouldn't you pay less up front for a car that will cost you less to operate and have lower maintenance costs if it meets your daily needs?

Back to the previous discussion of charging stations at airports, as shown in the video below, Oslo Airport (OSL) now has 727 charging stations. Not really surprising given that Norway is leading the world in EV adoption and they have surpassed 50% market share (new vehicles sold), with most of those being BEVs. They are what we would call Level 2 AC stations, but they don't use 110V in Europe, so what we call Level 1 AC charging doesn't exist there.

http://youtube.com/watch?v=mvTxH72e7nM
 
Does anyone have any idea why Nissan didn't use the electronics from brake regeneration (ac 3 phase to 400v dc) to charge the car from type2 outlet with 22kw or more?
 
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