Fenix Power - Took money and but never delivered

Fenix Buying Outright Vs Fenix Battery As A Service Vs Nissan

Fenix Buying Outright:
- Less Expensive Nissan Pack
-Ability to buy new modules through us if needed.
-Cells are going to be from a range of packs: overproduced, salvage,
or from other packs not used anymore.
-The battery bars/range will be given a minimum requirement before being sold.
-Ability to buy a longer range pack for an affordable price.


-Starting price around $3500

Fenix Battery As A Service:
-Get temporary upgrade from current bad battery to this for the time being.
-Await our new technology and just switch up when it is available.
New technology to have thermal management.

-Guarantee on a certain amount of degradation. -We maintenance and
replace degraded cells for no extra charge.

Cost: installation fee + $2-$3 per kWh/per month

Nissan:
-One time replacement
-High price
-No support for packs
-Starting Price $8500


Fenix Battery Survey: https://fenix.systems/ev-life?utm_s...270720975&mc_cid=fd3abf8027&mc_eid=286facc622

But Nissan pack is available today if you really really need it. Fenix pack is available???

You forgot DIY battery upgrades.

Cost is 1000-1500$ for a kit to DIY
40-62kWh batteries can be had for 4000-6000$ in the US

Dala said:

You forgot DIY battery upgrades.

Cost is 1000-1500$ for a kit to DIY
40-62kWh batteries can be had for 4000-6000$ in the US

Click to expand...

Genuinely curious on this option:
So, you buy the DIY kit. Then you find a salvaged Leaf, or you can find a salvaged 40-62w battery online? Then have it shipped? For people like me who can't DIY the battery swap, I would work with a local mechanic that can do the swap for me? How many hours/cost would be reasonable? I'm in the southeast.

Rktennis said:

Dala said:

You forgot DIY battery upgrades.

Cost is 1000-1500$ for a kit to DIY
40-62kWh batteries can be had for 4000-6000$ in the US

Click to expand...

Genuinely curious on this option:
So, you buy the DIY kit. Then you find a salvaged Leaf, or you can find a salvaged 40-62w battery online? Then have it shipped? For people like me who can't DIY the battery swap, I would work with a local mechanic that can do the swap for me? How many hours/cost would be reasonable? I'm in the southeast.

Click to expand...

I would estimate 1-4 working days, depending on which model you start with (ZE0 is harder than AZE0) and the skill level of the people doing the swap.

Rktennis said:

Dala said:

You forgot DIY battery upgrades.

Cost is 1000-1500$ for a kit to DIY
40-62kWh batteries can be had for 4000-6000$ in the US

Click to expand...

Genuinely curious on this option:
So, you buy the DIY kit. Then you find a salvaged Leaf, or you can find a salvaged 40-62w battery online? Then have it shipped? For people like me who can't DIY the battery swap, I would work with a local mechanic that can do the swap for me? How many hours/cost would be reasonable? I'm in the southeast.

Click to expand...

When all is said and done; guessing about the same w/o the guarantees.

Fenix will also offer Outright purchase (Fenix Battery Modules)– "In this model, a customer may opt to pay the full purchase price of the storage their vehicle needs. ...However, with this purchase option, if the buyer wishes to have the benefits of our service, they will still have to subscribe to our service. This subscription cost will be quite low, but sufficient to cover our back-end costs and our module-swap program including the vehicle service to swap the modules. We are still developing the own+service subscription cost."

The mechanic is going to need a pallet jack or forklift to get that battery out and back in. My Toyota 4,400lb pallet jack shouldn't have any trouble and I plan to invent a pack dolly that goes on a pallet jack.

Most mechanics won't drop a fuel tank that's full of fuel in most cars and fuel tank isn't even that heavy compaored to a leaf battery.

My budget all in, to get a very totalled 62kwh car, to include selling my cherry 12bar 2011 pack, selling all the 2019 cars parts that aren't wrecked and hauling the picked clean 2019 carcass to the scrap yatd should be well under $3,500.

Oilpan4 said:

The mechanic is going to need a pallet jack or forklift to get that battery out and back in. My Toyota 4,400lb pallet jack shouldn't have any trouble and I plan to invent a pack dolly that goes on a pallet jack.

Most mechanics won't drop a fuel tank that's full of fuel in most cars and fuel tank isn't even that heavy compaored to a leaf battery.

My budget all in, to get a very totalled 62kwh car, to include selling my cherry 12bar 2011 pack, selling all the 2019 cars parts that aren't wrecked and hauling the picked clean 2019 carcass to the scrap yatd should be well under $3,500.

Click to expand...

Can you break that cost analysis down?

Rktennis said:

Dala said:

You forgot DIY battery upgrades.

Cost is 1000-1500$ for a kit to DIY
40-62kWh batteries can be had for 4000-6000$ in the US

Click to expand...

Genuinely curious on this option:
So, you buy the DIY kit. Then you find a salvaged Leaf, or you can find a salvaged 40-62w battery online? Then have it shipped? For people like me who can't DIY the battery swap, I would work with a local mechanic that can do the swap for me? How many hours/cost would be reasonable? I'm in the southeast.

Click to expand...

I really see a battery swap to be "an experiment" to be done DIY. You buy the battery, and win or lose the labor is yours.

If you are not a DIY, then you really need to go the the Nissan Dealer. It will not be possible with a regular mechanic.

1) You are dealing with high voltages and no mechanic is going to take a chance with the liability.
2) You are dealing with a very expensive piece of tech. and no mechanic is going to take a chance with the liability.
3) There is no way to know - up front, if it will work, or how much time and labor will be. and no mechanic is going to take a chance with the liability.
4) Each project will be different and unique, and there is an issue of guarantee/ warranty of work. and no mechanic is going to take a chance with the liability.

Unfortunately non-mechanical people will not be able to get a cheap battery swap. They will pay full price to Nissan.

DaveinOlyWA said:

Oilpan4 said:

The mechanic is going to need a pallet jack or forklift to get that battery out and back in. My Toyota 4,400lb pallet jack shouldn't have any trouble and I plan to invent a pack dolly that goes on a pallet jack.

Most mechanics won't drop a fuel tank that's full of fuel in most cars and fuel tank isn't even that heavy compaored to a leaf battery.

My budget all in, to get a very totalled 62kwh car, to include selling my cherry 12bar 2011 pack, selling all the 2019 cars parts that aren't wrecked and hauling the picked clean 2019 carcass to the scrap yatd should be well under $3,500.

Click to expand...

Can you break that cost analysis down?

Click to expand...

Buy a wrecked car for around 6 to 8 thousand.
Sell my cherry 12 bar soh 2011 battery. I'll probably list it on eBay buy it now for $4,500 then drop the price $200 to $500 every few weeks till it sells.
Should clear $3,000 on that easy.
From the wreck hopefully I can sell the interior and pocket $1,000, mostly from the seats.
Up to $1,000 for the doors if all 4 are intact, but it could be $0, if the doors are crunched then the car will be that much cheaper.
A $1,000 for the tires, unless I like them and keep them. Then I sell my old 2011 wheels but I only get 400 to $500 for those.
Suspension, brakes, rotors and under side bits that aren't wrecked, $500.
And that pretty much pays for the car and I haven't even sold the motor, transmission, inverter.

Fenix Power is getting closer to the finish line but they don't have a deliverable product yet. Right now the supposed product will be either a 24 or 30 KWH battery, your choice. That doesn't help me. If I replace my battery, I need at least 40KWH and 45 or 50 KWH would be better. A 40KWH that stays a 40KWH would give me enough range to meet my needs but a little more wouldn't hurt. Right now My 30 KWH battery is down to 25 KWH and needs to be charged daily to cover my 55 mile commute. Also I have to charge as soon as I get home just in case I I need to make a second trip later. Even a trip to the grocery store burns up 6 or 7 KWH. Sometimes living in the country sucks like when you forget that gallon of milk you were supposed to pick up or you have to go pick up the kids. When I got the Leaf, I really thought that a 100 mi range was going to be adequate and that even 20 KWH would work. I was wrong. I can drive the car with a 20 KWh battery but I have to charge out in town two or three times a week. Extra errands kill me. Either I get a bigger battery for this car or just buy a new car with better range and all the new tech. A lot depends on Fenix power's pricing. If the new battery costs 10K installed that's a no-go. I'd rather put 10K toward a new car.

nlspace said:

Sniffing CAN buss data is not the same as reverse engineering the LBC and the VCM. i've seen no evidence that any level of reverse engineering has been done for the Leaf other than some inverter boards on the diy forum.

Reverse engineering means you have the circuit schematics and the controller firmware, and can troubleshoot, repair or modify either of these as needed for your purposes.

Ask user coulomb about this, he is a world class expert.

Click to expand...

Turbo3 did some analysis of the LBC (https://www.mynissanleaf.com/viewtopic.php?f=8&t=17470). I was thinking about this last night and if Fenix is going to be installing their own replacement pack, they'll either need to have reverse engineered the LBC enough to come up with their own LBC to spoof all the data and responses the VCM expects.

Or, they'll need to use an existing LBC but have something else the spoofs all the responses and voltages the LBC expects. This is in addition to managing their own cells.

nlspace said:

What is the level of knowledge, skills, abilities and experience of Fenix Power with respect to the design, management and control of packs built up of small cylindrical cells in parallel?

Who is going to design and build the circuit boards necessary for monitoring the cells and control of the pack?

And how is this new pack going to be integrated with the current operating system of the Leaf?

Click to expand...

Yep on all of this. Good question.

As has already been mentioned, there are all sorts of potential safety concerns just from the cells sitting idle, charging and discharging, esp. overcharge conditions, cell failure, overheating, etc. What if the pack quits or the software/firmware running on their BMS gets into a bad state while charging or while the car's being driven?

GM has a massive battery lab: https://media.gm.com/media/us/en/gm/news.detail.html/content/Pages/news/us/en/2013/Sep/0916-battery-lab.html and I'm sure lots of engineers who know what they're doing. What sort of testing is Fenix going to be able to do beyond simple static tests and some tests involving driving and charging?

I could see major liability issues coming up if there were an accident due to pack or software failure or li-ion fire or thermal runaway. And, there are liability concerns if a Leaf gets into a severe accident with one of these packs.

How does the supposed thermal management integrate with the existing AC system and radiator?

I'm concerned that the management at Fenix is almost like a bunch of Kickstarter guys trying to come up with a hardware device but have no EE or embedded systems knowledge nor any knowledge of manufacturing or sufficient knowledge of bringing hardware from 0 to finished product. Basically, "what? we need to test for this? We need to pay someone to do that? Who knew it cost this much for tooling for molds?" If they had a proven track record of designing battery packs and BMSes for automotive applications along w/extensive knowledge of CAN (for example), then I'd feel more comfortable.

They seem to have ideas but given the lack of demonstrated progress (e.g. demos), I question their ability to execute and have something even shippable to paying customers that's safe by the end of 2020. I wonder if it can happen by the end of 2021. They need to train other installers and at least write documentation on how to troubleshoot and effect repairs if customers hit problems. This has to happen while someone manages them swapping worn Leaf packs with genuine Nissan ones in better shape.

The task isn't impossible but there's the question of the cost to achieve it, funding, expertise (if it's not in house now, they need to hire and pay them), timeframe, whether the business model is sustainable and whether there's sufficient real demand. Will they be done so late that there won't be sufficient demand? We've seen how little old degraded Leafs are worth and the march forward in EV evolution.

^^^^^^^^^^^^

To add; Fenix did mention that they are currently ready to install "LEAF" packs into cars while providing the same capacity guarantee. That requires nearly nothing to achieve. So this would be nothing more than any good shop could do. Whether they are better in grabbing good packs from wrecked cars or not, we shall see.

powersurge said:

Rktennis said:

Dala said:

You forgot DIY battery upgrades.

Cost is 1000-1500$ for a kit to DIY
40-62kWh batteries can be had for 4000-6000$ in the US

Click to expand...

Genuinely curious on this option:
So, you buy the DIY kit. Then you find a salvaged Leaf, or you can find a salvaged 40-62w battery online? Then have it shipped? For people like me who can't DIY the battery swap, I would work with a local mechanic that can do the swap for me? How many hours/cost would be reasonable? I'm in the southeast.

Click to expand...

I really see a battery swap to be "an experiment" to be done DIY. You buy the battery, and win or lose the labor is yours.

If you are not a DIY, then you really need to go the the Nissan Dealer. It will not be possible with a regular mechanic.

1) You are dealing with high voltages and no mechanic is going to take a chance with the liability.
2) You are dealing with a very expensive piece of tech. and no mechanic is going to take a chance with the liability.
3) There is no way to know - up front, if it will work, or how much time and labor will be. and no mechanic is going to take a chance with the liability.
4) Each project will be different and unique, and there is an issue of guarantee/ warranty of work. and no mechanic is going to take a chance with the liability.

Unfortunately non-mechanical people will not be able to get a cheap battery swap. They will pay full price to Nissan.

Click to expand...

Makes sense to me, thank you for the write-up

Im the Phoenix class-action representative from the Nissan Leaf battery degradation class action lawsuit that was filed against Nissan and I still own my 2011 Nissan Leaf w/ 101,800 miles and am down 6 capacity bars on the second battery which was replaced under the capacity warranty. I just spoke to Nissan customer service and they lowered the price of their 24 kilowatt hour battery to approximately $5,495. They're 40 kilowatt battery is now $12,495. They are discontinuing the 30 kilowatt hour battery and replacing those cars batteries with their 40 kilowatt hour battery. They have still yet to announce this which is odd and they will not install a 40 kilowatt hour in a 24 kilowatt hour equipped car. I told them about Fenix Power and that Fenix power will be the best solution because your batteries with a small subscription price every month will be kept at maximum capacity and you'll always be at 12 capacity bars.. Can't Wait!

dsh said:

They're 40 kilowatt battery is now $12,495.

Click to expand...

If that's correct its $312.3 per kWh which is absurd.

What have you been doing to your car?
Charging it in a paint drying oven, charging it to 100% and leaving it at 100% for days at a time?
I'm on my second pack also, only 75,000 miles total for both batteries and still have 12 bars.
Most of that time and miles were ran up on the 2nd battery

dsh said:

Nissan is a joke run by Japs that don't live in the. U.S.A.

Click to expand...

FYI, Jap is a racial slur and I'd recommend not using that: https://mynissanleaf.com/viewtopic.php?p=566589#p566589.

I lived in Japan they really don't care.
They're not overly sensitive and but hurt by everything like people in America.
If you call them chinamen, they will cut you. Possibly up into little pieces, depending on how nationalist and criminal the group you call that are.