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I'd report these posts but I think that cat is out of the bag. Personally, I'd rather see Ed come back than more of this drivel.
 
He's been officially warned by another mod and I've removed the few useless last posts from him in this thread.
 
dsh said:
Im the Phoenix class-action representative from the Nissan Leaf battery degradation class action lawsuit that was filed against Nissan and I still own my 2011 Nissan Leaf w/ 101,800 miles and am down 6 capacity bars on the second battery which was replaced under the capacity warranty. I just spoke to Nissan customer service and they lowered the price of their 24 kilowatt hour battery to approximately $5,495. They're 40 kilowatt battery is now $12,495. They are discontinuing the 30 kilowatt hour battery and replacing those cars batteries with their 40 kilowatt hour battery. They have still yet to announce this which is odd and they will not install a 40 kilowatt hour in a 24 kilowatt hour equipped car. I told them about Fenix Power and that Fenix power will be the best solution because your batteries with a small subscription price every month will be kept at maximum capacity and you'll always be at 12 capacity bars.. Can't Wait! :p

I am fine if you can replace the 24 kwh battery for that price $5.5K.

Nissan are asses if they price the 40 KWH battery for over 12 grand. My only interpretation of this is that they want to protect their FUTURE sales of cars. The problem with their future cars is that they will be priced too high for the mass market. They should want to FLOOD the world's roads by keeping every EV Leaf in existence on the road. It would give such great Brand/ Name recognition.

Not wanting to support cars that are already on the road will only cause those older (but great) cars to be junked, thus making electric cars more of a unicorn than they are today...

My opinion of FENIX POWER.... Just like my opinion on the Tesla 65kwh electric pickup truck for $40K, or the Nissan "Concept" car ... Nice tease, don't hold your breath. All that talk is just to get people to finance their ventures....

I am into making battery packs for EBikes and know that if you are set up to make battery packs, it does not require years of research to make any size you want. just make them and connect them together... Electric battery packs are nothing more than soldering, and connecting In-Parallel - to increase capacity or In-Series - to increase voltage.
 
powersurge said:
I am into making battery packs for EBikes and know that if you are set up to make battery packs, it does not require years of research to make any size you want. just make them and connect them together... Electric battery packs are nothing more than soldering, and connecting In-Parallel - to increase capacity or In-Series - to increase voltage.
No BMS?
 
WetEV said:
powersurge said:
I am into making battery packs for EBikes and know that if you are set up to make battery packs, it does not require years of research to make any size you want. just make them and connect them together... Electric battery packs are nothing more than soldering, and connecting In-Parallel - to increase capacity or In-Series - to increase voltage.
No BMS?

Not always. A cheap Chinese BMS is about as likely to cause pack failure as to avert it. There is also no BMS now in my Vectrix maxi-scooter.
 
LeftieBiker said:
WetEV said:
powersurge said:
I am into making battery packs for EBikes and know that if you are set up to make battery packs, it does not require years of research to make any size you want. just make them and connect them together... Electric battery packs are nothing more than soldering, and connecting In-Parallel - to increase capacity or In-Series - to increase voltage.
No BMS?

Not always. A cheap Chinese BMS is about as likely to cause pack failure as to avert it. There is also no BMS now in my Vectrix maxi-scooter.

For NiMh, you don't need a BMS as a slow top charge will automatically balance. With Lithium chemistries, overcharge results in damage to the cell and/or fire. Therefore, your charge will always be limited by the highest voltage cell.

Without a BMS, how does the charger monitor individual cell voltages and how does it ensure that over time one cell doesn't get higher and higher voltage than the rest, limiting the capacity of the pack? Perhaps your Vectrix charger includes a "BMS"? Without any balancing function, I can't see how the lithium pack would last any significant amount of time before it simply becomes out of balance. Is your Vectrix using more than one cell?

On my RC airplanes, there's a balance connector and a main connector. The charger both charges the pack and monitors individual cell voltages, balancing the cells. In short, the charger is both a charger and BMS in a single unit. Is this what's happening with your Vectrix?
 
Nice to finally see Nissan price their 40kWh at $12k. At the very least, it's a target to beat.

Lothsahn said:
On my RC airplanes, there's a balance connector and a main connector. The charger both charges the pack and monitors individual cell voltages, balancing the cells. In short, the charger is both a charger and BMS in a single unit. Is this what's happening with your Vectrix?

As far as I know from his YT videos, the Vectrix has no BMS whatsoever. LeftieBiker simply balances it manually once a month or something like that. Obviously an unacceptable solution for a full-scale EV.

powersurge said:
I am into making battery packs for EBikes and know that if you are set up to make battery packs, it does not require years of research to make any size you want. just make them and connect them together... Electric battery packs are nothing more than soldering, and connecting In-Parallel - to increase capacity or In-Series - to increase voltage.

There is way more to automotive battery engineering than that, and you know it. Mechanical, electrical, and thermal stresses that can be "safely" ignored at the 0.5 kWh e-bike scale are hugely expensive and time-consuming to address at the scale of 25-80 kWh automotive traction batteries. You won't even find a single automotive pack that uses directly soldered cells in 2020 - cells are linked via busbars attached with ultrasonic welds and heavy-duty connectors. Please stop spreading the fiction that a Leaf-scale pack can be safely built in a garage.
 
coleafrado said:
Lothsahn said:
On my RC airplanes, there's a balance connector and a main connector. The charger both charges the pack and monitors individual cell voltages, balancing the cells. In short, the charger is both a charger and BMS in a single unit. Is this what's happening with your Vectrix?

As far as I know from his YT videos, the Vectrix has no BMS whatsoever. LeftieBiker simply balances it manually once a month or something like that.

powersurge said:
I am into making battery packs for EBikes and know that if you are set up to make battery packs, it does not require years of research to make any size you want. just make them and connect them together... Electric battery packs are nothing more than soldering, and connecting In-Parallel - to increase capacity or In-Series - to increase voltage.

There is way more to automotive battery engineering than that, and you know it. Mechanical, electrical, and thermal stresses that can be "safely" ignored at the 0.5 kWh e-bike scale are hugely expensive and time-consuming to address at the scale of 25-80 kWh automotive traction batteries. You won't even find a single automotive pack that uses directly soldered cells in 2020 - cells are linked via busbars attached either via ultrasonically-welded wires (Tesla) or copper bolts/nuts (Nissan) or plain old wiring harnesses (LG/GM).

HEY, EVERYONE!!!!! HOLD ON!!!!

I was not saying that you just solder batteries together.

I was stating that someone who has the knowledge of how the Nissan packs are made, AND has the equipment to service those things..... AS are Nissan dealers( which are common) do not have to spend years on research and development of a darn battery pack.

There is no magic in those things that a Nissan trained mechanic cannot do. Yes, you take apart and rebuild packs by soldering and rebuilding the pack!

Wow, you guys are willing to eat anybody alive by finding little issues in posters' writing... CALM DOWN..
 
powersurge said:
I was stating that someone who has the knowledge of how the Nissan packs are made, AND has the equipment to service those things..... AS are Nissan dealers, which are common, do not have to spend years on research and development of a darn battery pack. There is no magic in those things that a Nissan trained mechanic cannot do.

The average Nissan dealer knows how to drop the pack and swap it out for a new one. Some dealers may even know how to replace individual defective modules in a Leaf pack. By comparison, developing an entirely new pack of arbitrary capacity with a safe BMS and functional charge control is so far beyond a dealer's pay grade that discussing it is farcical. You wouldn't expect a dealer to machine a new ICE engine block from steel stock, would you?

Does that make more sense? I'm sorry you feel that I'm eating you alive. :shock:
 
coleafrado said:
As far as I know from his YT videos, the Vectrix has no BMS whatsoever. LeftieBiker simply balances it manually once a month or something like that. Obviously an unacceptable solution for a full-scale EV.

From Wikipedia (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vectrix):
The Vectrix scooter uses NiMH batteries with a manufacturer-claimed life of 10 years and 1,500 recharges.[7] The 125-volt battery pack has a capacity of 3.7 kW·h and can be recharged to 80% in two hours from a standard domestic power socket. The battery can also be partially recharged through regenerative braking.[8] Replacement cost of the battery is estimated to be around $3,000, almost one third of the cost of the bike.

That would explain it. NiMH batteries don't require a BMS as they get safely balanced via a slow top-off charge. I'm not aware of any rechargeable Lithium battery anywhere that is > 1 cell that can charge without a BMS. It's not a matter of scale, it's a matter of chemistry. Even small RC airplane/helicopter batteries require balancing (if they're > 1 cell).
 
Lothsahn said:
....
That would explain it. NiMH batteries don't require a BMS as they get safely balanced via a slow top-off charge. I'm not aware of any rechargeable Lithium battery anywhere that is > 1 cell that can charge without a BMS. It's not a matter of scale, it's a matter of chemistry. Even small RC airplane/helicopter batteries require balancing (if they're > 1 cell).

Sorry, I guess I wasn't particularly clear. As far as I know, LeftieBiker is the only guy with a Leaf-module-powered Vectrix:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=N0ANnVrvQAc

and 300mpg.org. I may have the wrong person, but the guy in the video has not indicated that he uses balancing at all beyond the occasional cell-level check.
 
Latest blog entry at https://fenix.systems/category/news/fenix-news is from Feb 1st. I still didn't notice any updates in terms of progress on their own solution.
 
Lothsahn said:
I'm not aware of any rechargeable Lithium battery anywhere that is > 1 cell that can charge without a BMS. It's not a matter of scale, it's a matter of chemistry. Even small RC airplane/helicopter batteries require balancing (if they're > 1 cell).

LiFePO packs can be effectively "bottom balanced". Combined with conservative charge cut-off it can obviate the need for dynamic balancing. I used this for an 8-cell pack I made to power our lawn mower but it has been successfully used for car-sized packs as well.
 
That would explain it. NiMH batteries don't require a BMS as they get safely balanced via a slow top-off charge. I'm not aware of any rechargeable Lithium battery anywhere that is > 1 cell that can charge without a BMS. It's not a matter of scale, it's a matter of chemistry. Even small RC airplane/helicopter batteries require balancing (if they're > 1 cell).

Sorry, I guess I wasn't particularly clear. As far as I know, LeftieBiker is the only guy with a Leaf-module-powered Vectrix:


That's why my ears were burning! Anyway, I'm not the only one with a Leaf-powered VX-1. Most conversions are actually done with a BMS added, but not all. My bike, converted by the previous owner, doesn't have a BMS. The trick is to use cells that are very closely (to about 3 decimal places in voltage) matched to start. What it does have is balancing leads: thin little wires connected to each cell, that terminate in the cargo compartment in generic plugs. The leads are numbered, and every year or two I check the voltages after a full charge followed by a vigorous ride. I haven't had to re-balance them yet, but if I did I'd have to use something like an RC charger to provide each low cell with a top-up. Why leave off the BMS? Because if the cells are well matched, a BMS failure is more likely to kill the pack than is an imbalance. And the bike's charger tries to top balance the cells as well, when I charge to 100%. Since these are most likely Canary pack modules, I don't do that often...

I may have to sell the bike this year, if I can't find and correct a minor issue that is preventing it from booting up most of the time. It's an interlock in the brakes, oddly enough...

An SQL error preventing me from attributing properly.
 
dsh said:
:mrgreen: https://fenix.systems/news/fenix-news/2019/11/14/fenix-power-moving-into-new-facility?mc_cid=62bc08ead7&mc_eid=593d3cb615
I've learned from someone that allegedly Fenix Power has gotten an eviction notice. They pointed me to https://mcsop.permitium.com/sop/searchpage which does currently list an eviction served to FENIX POWER, INC. (DEFENDANT) as of 2/5/2020. I had to look up https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mecklenburg_County,_North_Carolina.

There is an ongoing thread at https://www.facebook.com/groups/184664911551980/permalink/2997289450289498/ which I'm skimmed parts of. Mr. Bysinger is answering some questions and at https://www.facebook.com/groups/184664911551980/permalink/2997289450289498/?comment_id=2997429243608852, he does acknowledge the departure of their COO and elsewhere in the thread he does mention vacating "the warehouse space".

I haven't had time to dig further.
SalisburySam said:
joeriv said:
Seems to me that if a “Leafer” from the Charlotte NC area could pay them a visit and write up his impressions, that could put some meat on the bones.

I’d love to do that and I’m about 35 miles from their Harrisburg NC (bedroom community on the East side of Charlotte) location. That’s sadly about 5 miles out of range for my 2012 SL without a refueling stop. But I like the idea and I could easily make it in my other EV. I’ll try to set up a meeting there. In case that doesn’t work, even a drive-by might be helpful.

They’ve recently contracted a 7000 sq.ft. facility in another part of Charlotte though currently it’s only an empty building. Baby steps, apparently. Still mildly optimistic but would really like to see a retrofitted LEAF rolling around the area sometime, maybe even mine.
Re: their Harrisburg NC location, are you talking about the below as listed on their web site (https://fenix.systems/) and https://fenix.systems/blog?
4311 School House Commons Suite 216
Harrisburg, NC 28075

If so, it appears it is just an address of a UPS Store: https://www.google.com/maps/@35.3208476,-80.649623,3a,75y,179.22h,85.7t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1s_wgUb_nura6wHAW53JxfOA!2e0!7i16384!8i8192
https://locations.theupsstore.com/nc/harrisburg/4311-school-house-commons

Not clear that there are actual "suites" at the location. Perhaps it's just a mailbox there? It has come up before: https://www.mynissanleaf.com/viewtopic.php?p=553824#p553824.
 
If this is going as it appears, it's sad. I don't like to see sincere people fail, and it was a good idea that just may have been swept aside as it became possible to install higher capacity Leaf packs instead. If they had a bolt-in 40kwh pack with TMS ready to test it would still be a good idea.
 
From that FB thread:
Ryland Erdman: Fenix is building new battery packs inside of used battery cases and installing them in older Leafs.
Makes sense to use the largest case made that fits the older body style.
I'm alarmed that he believes they are "building new battery packs" rather than "claiming they will be able to ...".
 
LeftieBiker said:
If this is going as it appears, it's sad. I don't like to see sincere people fail, and it was a good idea that just may have been swept aside as it became possible to install higher capacity Leaf packs instead. If they had a bolt-in 40kwh pack with TMS ready to test it would still be a good idea.

Good idea but late to market. Other options are popping up everywhere including Nissan upgrading packs.
 
I never for a second thought Fenix was sincere.
On the surface, from my observations it appears they were a startup that was hoping to get bought out.
I never at any point believed they were going to produce their fancy battery pack.
 
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