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Hydrogen and FCEVs discussion thread
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smkettner
Well-known member
Inefficiency will always come at a high cost.Oilpan4 said:Everything everyone needs to know about hydrogen can be summed up with 2 numbers.
$16 per 1kg.
GRA
Well-known member
GCC:
https://www.greencarcongress.com/2020/01/20200124-doeh2scale.htmlDOE announces up to $64M to advance H2@Scale in new markets
. . . This investment will support transformational research and development (R&D), innovative hydrogen concepts that will encourage market expansion and increase the scale of hydrogen production, storage, transport, and use.
Hydrogen and fuel cells represent an industry with the potential to enable resiliency, energy security, emission reductions, and economic growth across sectors. While the United States produces 10 million tons of hydrogen annually, a significant increase in hydrogen supply and demand will be required to fully realize hydrogen benefits across the economy. . . .
Topic areas include:
- Electrolyzer Manufacturing R&D (up to $15M): Lowering the cost of hydrogen produced from megawatt- and gigawatt-scale electrolyzers by improving large-scale, high-volume electrolyzer manufacturing in the US.
Advanced Carbon Fiber for Compressed Gas Storage Tanks (up to $15M): Reducing the cost of hydrogen and natural gas storage tanks by developing low-cost, high-strength carbon fiber and scaling up to industry-relevant scales.
Fuel Cell R&D and Domestic Manufacturing for Medium and Heavy Duty Transportation (up to $10M): Advancing the development of domestically manufactured fuel cell components and stacks that meet the cost and performance needs of trucks and other emerging heavy duty applications.
H2@Scale New Markets R&D – HySteel (up to $8M): Enabling the use of hydrogen in steel manufacturing applications, aligned with FCTO and H2@Scale priorities for fostering new markets for hydrogen.
H2@Scale New Markets Demonstrations in Maritime and Data Centers (up to $14M): Developing first-of-a-kind demonstrations to jumpstart emerging new market opportunities for hydrogen in maritime and data center applications.
Training and Workforce Development (up to $2M): Creating cohesive, strategic, and well-coordinated regional efforts to develop the skills necessary to support the growing hydrogen and fuel cell industry.
Concept papers are due 25 February 2020 and full applications are due 20 April 2020.
GRA
Well-known member
IEVS:
As with all forecasts, add salt to taste.
https://insideevs.com/news/395403/bmw-vp-fcev-rival-ice-2025/BMW Hydrogen VP Says FCEVs Could Be As Cheap As ICE By 2025
There’s currently a big price gap between fuel cell and internal combustion-engined vehicles. . . .
BMW seems to be on the side of those in favor of quicker fuel cell electric powertrain adoption, because it plans on launching a limited series FCEV version of the X5 SUV in 2022 - it was previewed by the i Hydrogen NEXT concept which was shown at the 2019 Frankfurt motor show. . . .
The company is working on its third generation fuel cells right now and the main goal is to get costs low enough for them to start selling an FCEV alongside other vehicles in its range (and not just as limited run offerings). Guldner suggested that BMW is close to bringing the cost down to a point where it will be comparable to its gasoline and diesel vehicles, but is not quite there yet.
He expects this to happen no earlier than 2025, or somewhere between 2025 and the end of the decade. There currently isn’t enough demand for the manufacturer to launch a full FCEV model, since it would still be too expensive to have a chance at success, but things may not stay like this for too long.
This is an interesting standpoint given that fellow German automaker Volkswagen announced it would be diverting most of the resources it had allocated for fuel cell development towards battery electric vehicles in the near future. Audi, which is part of the VW group, may still keep the fuel cell development flame lit, though. . . .
As with all forecasts, add salt to taste.
GRA
Well-known member
GCC:
ABG:
There's a photo.
https://www.greencarcongress.com/2020/02/20200203-nz.htmlHiringa and Waitomo to partner to develop New Zealand’s first hydrogen refueling stations network
. . . Taranaki-based Hiringa Energy is the first company in New Zealand dedicated to the supply of green hydrogen (produced via electrolysis), providing solutions for industry, the public sector, and transport operators. Waikato-based Waitomo Group is New Zealand’s fastest-growing independent fuel retailer.
Together the two will work on the detailed engineering requirements and consenting for a network of hydrogen refueling sites, some of which will be on existing Waitomo Fuel Stops. Initial locations have been selected, with plans for a further 20 stations to be developed across both the North and South Island.
- Heavy transport makes up only four percent of our vehicles, but they’re responsible for over 25 percent of our total vehicle emissions. Hydrogen is the key technology that will allow these fleets to stay on the road—a mass-market, clean energy solution that can have a real impact on reducing our transport emissions.
—Hiringa Energy CEO and Co-Founder, Andrew Clennett. . . .
Development and consenting for the first hydrogen refueling sites will get under way this year. The two companies will work together to identify and scope further sites for development of the network in 2020. . . .
ABG:
https://www.autoblog.com/2020/02/03/toyota-energy-observer-maritime-hydrogen-fuel-cell/Toyota tests maritime hydrogen fuel cell tech in Energy Observer catamaran
It uses hydrogen electrolyzed from seawater using wind and solar for energy autonomy
. . . Taking knowledge it has gained from and tech it has developed for the Mirai fuel cell vehicle, Toyota has now developed a fuel cell system for maritime applications. Its first delivery goes to the Energy Observer, a former racing catamaran that has been converted to run on a mix of renewable energies for a new mission: to show the world that sea voyages can be greener while creating economic opportunity.
As a supplement to wind and solar, hydrogen power seems like a natural fit for maritime transport. After all, there’s no shortage of the atom at sea, and if a vessel can isolate its own hydrogen from seawater — as the Energy Observer is able to through electrolysis — it’s essentially free energy. The Energy Observer uses solar cells and wind turbines as part of its energy mix to provide propulsion and to power the electrolyzer.
Of course, with wind and solar available, hydrogen isn't the most efficient energy source. The Energy Observer uses an energy management system to optimize efficiency. When able, the boat uses solar and wind energy to directly power the propulsion. For short interruptions such as cloudy weather, energy stored in the lithium-ion batteries takes over, while the hydrogen fuel cell system powers the boat at night and during other extended interruptions.
As for Toyota’s role, it adapted the Mirai’s fuel cell system into a more compact module especially for this sort of application. Toyota then worked with the Energy Observer team to install it in the boat and test it at dock. Now, the system undergoes full-power testing at sea before the Energy Observer continues on its official six-year mission to visit 101 ports in 50 countries to spread the word about clean energy. So far, the boat has logged three years, 18,000 nautical miles, 25 countries and 48 ports. . . .
There's a photo.
GRA
Well-known member
See numerous earlier posts reporting R&D and economy of scale effects to accomplish both.
smkettner
Well-known member
I assume hydrogen from solar would be even more costly.Oilpan4 said:None of this really matters to the United states until something gets done about hydrogen costing $16 per Kg and it coming from natural gas.
GRA said:See numerous earlier posts reporting R&D and economy of scale effects to accomplish both.
Been hearing that for at least a decade now.
GRA
Well-known member
^^^ And costs have been coming down for more than a decade, but you choose to ignore those facts. For instance, in 2004 a single car FC stack cost Toyota $1m to produce. In 2014 they had got the price down (in limited production) to $50k, or a 95% reduction in a decade. It's presumably lower now, but they anticipate scaling up from the current 3k to 30k annual production will get the cost down to $10k (a further 80% reduction from 2014), at which point they say the cost will be competitive.
Similar albeit not so radical cost reductions have occurred in other areas (H2 storage, dispensing, tranportation, production using renewables, etc.) due to economies of scale, technical development or both, just as they have in every other area of manufacturing, and the whole retail chain using renewable H2 is still a long way away from maturity so there's plenty of room for further reductions. None of which guarantees that H2 FCEVs will succeed, of course, as they'll have to compete with other techs such as BEVs that are ahead of them in development and deployment. But to pretend, as you do, that H2 and FCEV costs can't be reduced further and technical development is at a stage where there'll only be minor incremental improvements, while consistently ignoring any evidence to the contrary, isn't being honest. H2 and FCEVs have real hurdles to overcome to be commercial, cost being the main one, but we simply don't know yet if they can be overcome (enough), and if they can be overcome fast enough to beat the competition.
Similar albeit not so radical cost reductions have occurred in other areas (H2 storage, dispensing, tranportation, production using renewables, etc.) due to economies of scale, technical development or both, just as they have in every other area of manufacturing, and the whole retail chain using renewable H2 is still a long way away from maturity so there's plenty of room for further reductions. None of which guarantees that H2 FCEVs will succeed, of course, as they'll have to compete with other techs such as BEVs that are ahead of them in development and deployment. But to pretend, as you do, that H2 and FCEV costs can't be reduced further and technical development is at a stage where there'll only be minor incremental improvements, while consistently ignoring any evidence to the contrary, isn't being honest. H2 and FCEVs have real hurdles to overcome to be commercial, cost being the main one, but we simply don't know yet if they can be overcome (enough), and if they can be overcome fast enough to beat the competition.
salyavin
Well-known member
On hydrogen from solar being a waste it sure is as is transporting it to hyrdogen stations. If it gives more range, had little degredation or other heat issues that batteries have and is as cheap it may succeed. I just don't see it though they need the cost down and to build all those stations and transport it. If I am wrong awesome I'll take it. From what I see today with as far as we are with charging networks and EV range I would be seriously impressed if hydrogen could catch up and offer price parity and similar availability.
GRA
Well-known member
GCC:
https://www.greencarcongress.com/2020/02/20200205-trillium.htmlTrillium completes construction of largest hydrogen transit refueling station in North America
. . . The Santa Ana, California hydrogen station, which went live Friday, was jointly developed by Trillium, Air Products, the Center for Transportation and the Environment (CTE), Ballard Fuel Systems and New Flyer.
Houston-based Trillium is a leading provider of renewable fuels and alternative energy solutions for fleets around the country.
The hydrogen station, built to fuel Orange County Transportation Authority (OCTA) buses, will fill up a transit bus in six to 10 minutes, similar to diesel or CNG bus filling rates, making this the only zero-emission fuel choice that allows fleets to operate as usual. Currently 10 buses are equipped for hydrogen, but the station allows the fleet to grow to 50 with only minimal additional capital costs.
Air Products provided enabling equipment and will deliver liquid hydrogen fuel. New Flyer provided the fuel cell electric buses and Ballard provided the hydrogen fuel cell electric technology that powers the buses. . . .
CTE, a nonprofit that advocates for clean, sustainable, innovative transportation and energy technologies, managed the administration of the project, particularly as it related to the funds secured through California Climate Investments, a statewide initiative that uses cap-and-trade dollars to reduce greenhouse gas emissions, strengthen the economy and improve public health and the environment.
Never said the fuel cell wouldn't become cheap enough to use in a car.
Hopefully they do and can burn alcohol, natural gas or super low sulfur diesel.
I say it's dead on arrival because of the catastrophically inefficient and disastrously wasteful obscenity known as hydrogen.
Right now from that article the cars and fueling are totally propped up with other people's money.
As far as I'm concerned tesla purl (the man in the 1880s and the company now) has killed the most of the need for a hydrogen car.
Cause right now I can buy a car from the company that goes over 200 miles on a charge and charge said car at home at night or on the road because of the man.
Hopefully they do and can burn alcohol, natural gas or super low sulfur diesel.
I say it's dead on arrival because of the catastrophically inefficient and disastrously wasteful obscenity known as hydrogen.
Right now from that article the cars and fueling are totally propped up with other people's money.
As far as I'm concerned tesla purl (the man in the 1880s and the company now) has killed the most of the need for a hydrogen car.
Cause right now I can buy a car from the company that goes over 200 miles on a charge and charge said car at home at night or on the road because of the man.
GRA
Well-known member
Oilpan4 said:Never said the fuel cell wouldn't become cheap enough to use in a car.
Hopefully they do and can burn alcohol, natural gas or super low sulfur diesel.
I say it's dead on arrival because of the catastrophically inefficient and disastrously wasteful obscenity known as hydrogen.
Right now from that article the cars and fueling are totally propped up with other people's money.
Just as BEVs (bar the luxury end of the market, in some places) and QCing are still totally propped up with OPM.
Oilpan4 said:As far as I'm concerned tesla purl (the man in the 1880s and the company now) has killed the most of the need for a hydrogen car.
Cause right now I can buy a car from the company that goes over 200 miles on a charge and charge said car at home at night or on the road because of the man.
And you bought it with at least some OPM, didn't you?
smkettner
Well-known member
Still need a 90% reduction in cost to produce hydrogen. The curve may flatten and approach a minimum that is too high to be viable.GRA said:^^^ And costs have been coming down for more than a decade, but you choose to ignore those facts.
GRA
Well-known member
smkettner said:Still need a 90% reduction in cost to produce hydrogen. The curve may flatten and approach a minimum that is too high to be viable.GRA said:^^^ And costs have been coming down for more than a decade, but you choose to ignore those facts.
Yes, it may, although 90% is too high. About 60% will do it here at current gas prices, and it's already cost-competitive in some countries thanks to high fuel taxes. It certainly doesn't hurt that some of the sustainable H2 is being electrolysed using electricity from wind/PV that would otherwise need to be curtailed or sold at a loss, a trend that will likely grow as we get a larger % of our electricity from VR. But a much more efficient H2 production method than current electrolysis (photo- or thermochemical) would obviously be desirable, which is why there's (government and industry-backed) R&D in those areas as well as for more efficient/cheaper electrolysis.
GRA said:Oilpan4 said:Never said the fuel cell wouldn't become cheap enough to use in a car.
Hopefully they do and can burn alcohol, natural gas or super low sulfur diesel.
I say it's dead on arrival because of the catastrophically inefficient and disastrously wasteful obscenity known as hydrogen.
Right now from that article the cars and fueling are totally propped up with other people's money.
Just as BEVs (bar the luxury end of the market, in some places) and QCing are still totally propped up with OPM.
Oilpan4 said:As far as I'm concerned tesla purl (the man in the 1880s and the company now) has killed the most of the need for a hydrogen car.
Cause right now I can buy a car from the company that goes over 200 miles on a charge and charge said car at home at night or on the road because of the man.
And you bought it with at least some OPM, didn't you?
2 things there I'm glad you pointed out.
The high power chargers are propped up with opm. But they only get used when long trips are taken. On a hydrogen car it takes opm powered hydrogen to go to the grocery store, to work, to go get more hydrogen, ect.
I only ever buy used cars so the opm would be second or 3rd hand. I wouldn't directly receive any tax credits in NM for second hand green anything.
As far as I know tesla is the only company to take Obama Era opm and is still around. But all those billions wasted, on all those scams and failed ideas it kinda seems worth it now.
Tesla has applied boot to ass on every other car maker and they are scrambling to catch up.
The only chance hydrogen has is to be a plug in hybrid so at least you're not locked into burning hydrogen at around 30 cents a mile just to go to the grocery store.
That's just pure speculation, assuming 1kg of hydrogen will go 50 miles, I can't find much on miles per kilogram of hydrogen.
GRA
Well-known member
Oilpan4 said:GRA said:Oilpan4 said:Never said the fuel cell wouldn't become cheap enough to use in a car.
Hopefully they do and can burn alcohol, natural gas or super low sulfur diesel.
I say it's dead on arrival because of the catastrophically inefficient and disastrously wasteful obscenity known as hydrogen.
Right now from that article the cars and fueling are totally propped up with other people's money.
Just as BEVs (bar the luxury end of the market, in some places) and QCing are still totally propped up with OPM.
Oilpan4 said:As far as I'm concerned tesla purl (the man in the 1880s and the company now) has killed the most of the need for a hydrogen car.
Cause right now I can buy a car from the company that goes over 200 miles on a charge and charge said car at home at night or on the road because of the man.
And you bought it with at least some OPM, didn't you?
2 things there I'm glad you pointed out.
The high power chargers are propped up with opm. But they only get used when long trips are taken. On a hydrogen car it takes opm powered hydrogen to go to the grocery store, to work, to go get more hydrogen, ect.
Uh huh, and it takes OPM to install public chargers almost everywhere, which is why I include which gov't agency is subsidizing QC and H2 installation as well as public vehicles in all my posts on those subjects if it's available (it usually is), e.g. the last paragraph of https://www.mynissanleaf.com/viewtopic.php?f=7&t=14744&p=578555#p578491
Here's a charging example, via GCC:
https://www.greencarcongress.com/2020/02/20200205-amply.html The relevant sentence isAMPLY Power & Logan Bus announce 2-year demo project of charging-as-a service for fleets; 5 electric school buses
The $1-million project is being funded by the New York State Energy Research and Development Authority (NYSERDA).
Oilpan4 said:I only ever buy used cars so the opm would be second or 3rd hand. I wouldn't directly receive any tax credits in NM for second hand green anything.
As far as I know tesla is the only company to take Obama Era opm and is still around. But all those billions wasted, on all those scams and failed ideas it kinda seems worth it now.
Tesla has applied boot to ass on every other car maker and they are scrambling to catch up.
You don't think every ZEV which still qualifies for federal, state and/or local tax credits/rebates isn't using OPM?
I do think that for people who have someplace to charge for routine driving, PHFCEVs (replacing PHEVs) make the most sense. For others, BEVs or FCEVs may be the ultimate answer (HEVs for now for most) - it all depends on costs, operational requirements, resource/production constraints, and so on, and we don't know how it's all going to turn out.Oilpan4 said:The only chance hydrogen has is to be a plug in hybrid so at least you're not locked into burning hydrogen at around 30 cents a mile just to go to the grocery store.
That's just pure speculation, assuming 1kg of hydrogen will go 50 miles, I can't find much on miles per kilogram of hydrogen.
As for H2 range/kg., easy enough to check. The LD FCEVs currently on the market go around 52-69 miles per kg. of H2, e.g. the Mirai stores just about 5 kg. and has an EPA combined range of 312 miles. The Clarity's better and the Nexo's worse (as you'd expect).
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