40 kw-hr battery in 2016 leaf

joeriv said:

Leftie, there is nothing wrong with your observations; however, observations backed up with objective data carry a lot more weight. The Geotab database right now is the best objective study we have - not perfect by any means, but considering the sample size (6,300 cars) it’s tough to argue against it.

We have the possibility of creating our own Leaf database using data contributed from LeafSpy users. I don’t know how many users there are, but I would guess enough to set up a very credible, objective degradation database. If you could get location, model year, type and SOH on a monthly/quarterly basis you’d have something of real value to Leaf users.

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Actually there is something wrong with Leftie's anecdotal 30 kwh observations. They are contradicted by both the updated New Zealand study and the Geotab study. Yes, a database could be created using data from Leaf owners on this site and that would certainly be useful. However, the first thing you would need to do is what Leftie has not. That is to utilize information from vehicles which have undergone the BMS software update - not a mix of pre and post update vehicle information.

I would welcome a study of Leaf battery longevity that included and considered climate and country of origin data. It's not that I'm unwilling to change my mind. The problem is that these studies contradict, in a serious way, what I and others here have observed. The Geotab study tells us that the Canary pack is better than the Lizard pack and is as good as the Tesla packs. The New Zealand study tells us that the BMS update always restores full real world capacity (adjusted for normal aging) and that there is no actual loss of range to begin with when the capacity bars indicate substantial loss. This is contradicts the actual experiences of those who have lost multiple bars, had the BMS update performed, and then lost multiple bars again, with corresponding loss of range, after the update. So please, do a real, rigorous study that doesn't ignore climate data like the Geotab study, or use a sample size so small that it isn't very useful, like the New Zealand study. You don't need 6,000 Leafs. You just need a few hundred, and to do it right.

However, the first thing you would need to do is what Leftie has not. That is to utilize information from vehicles which have undergone the BMS software update - not a mix of pre and post update vehicle information.

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You are half right: if all we want is to follow capacity after the BMS update, then there is no reason to look at cars not updated. My primary purpose, however, is to help people avoid getting a 30kwh Leaf that has a problem with real degradation. Many will now be looking for the degrading packs in order to get free 40kwh replacements, but not everyone wants to deal with the inherent hassles there. Further, it is clear, like it or not, that 30kwh packs degrade at very different rates, depending on climate - but also depending, I believe, on another yet to be established factor. I think that the X factor is a lot of defective packs, but we don't know that...yet. So for real world purposes it very much makes sense to look at both pre and post update 30kwh cars, because, as I keep noting, a 12 bar 30kwh Leaf that has NOT been updated is a much safer bet than a 12 bar 30kwh Leaf that has recently gotten the update. And an 11 bar non-updated pack is, for that matter, a poor bet for a new warranty pack. Your reality may vary.

http://engnews24h.com/nissan-could...eaf-for-free-with-the-new-40-kwh-batteries/
Article about Nissan replacing 30 kWh batteries under warranty with 40 kWh batteries

https://www.nimblefins.co.uk/study-real-life-nissan-leaf-battery-deterioration

Has a chart that shows range expected with 12. 11, 10, 9, 8 bars remaining. Since the USA mile it the same as a British mile I do not understand why the range is different unless UK does not have has high of speed limits.

GaleHawkins said:

http://engnews24h.com/nissan-could...eaf-for-free-with-the-new-40-kwh-batteries/

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Interesting, although it would be helpful to have that site translated into English.

LeftieBiker said:

GaleHawkins said:

http://engnews24h.com/nissan-could...eaf-for-free-with-the-new-40-kwh-batteries/

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Interesting, although it would be helpful to have that site translated into English.

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It is in English on my Windows running Chrome.

That was a joke about the poor translation.

GaleHawkins said:

http://engnews24h.com/nissan-could...eaf-for-free-with-the-new-40-kwh-batteries/
Article about Nissan replacing 30 kWh batteries under warranty with 40 kWh batteries

https://www.nimblefins.co.uk/study-real-life-nissan-leaf-battery-deterioration

Has a chart that shows range expected with 12. 11, 10, 9, 8 bars remaining. Since the USA mile it the same as a British mile I do not understand why the range is different unless UK does not have has high of speed limits.

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Have you ever driven in the UK? The roads vary from moderate freeways to paved ox cart trails. Single lanes with pullouts aren't uncommon. Most travel is done at 40 mph or less. villages are maybe 5 miles apart with roundabouts scattered throughout. The Leaf is much better suited to this kind of driving than what we do in the US.

johnlocke said:

GaleHawkins said:

http://engnews24h.com/nissan-could...eaf-for-free-with-the-new-40-kwh-batteries/
Article about Nissan replacing 30 kWh batteries under warranty with 40 kWh batteries

https://www.nimblefins.co.uk/study-real-life-nissan-leaf-battery-deterioration

Has a chart that shows range expected with 12. 11, 10, 9, 8 bars remaining. Since the USA mile it the same as a British mile I do not understand why the range is different unless UK does not have has high of speed limits.

Click to expand...

Have you ever driven in the UK? The roads vary from moderate freeways to paved ox cart trails. Single lanes with pullouts aren't uncommon. Most travel is done at 40 mph or less. villages are maybe 5 miles apart with roundabouts scattered throughout. The Leaf is much better suited to this kind of driving than what we do in the US.

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I have not but did see The Rhythm Section twice this last week and saw roads in Scotland and England and a lot of the roads looked like what we locally call "pig paths". There they are sheep paths based to what I saw in The Rhythm Section.

Picked up our 2016 Leaf SL with new 40 kWh battery installed. SOH = 99.87%. and a range of 142 miles with 99% charge and was good for 110 actual miles. Cell voltage and QID seems valid. Most of the other Leaf Spy Pro data is garbage.
.

That’s awesome.

They should let dealers advertise the upgrade as a post sale upgrade. While I don’t know that too many would bite on a 10K price, it would offer dealers some vision into how they too could make money on the EVs.

GaleHawkins said:

Picked up our 2016 Leaf SL with new 40 kWh battery installed. SOH = 99.87%. and a range of 142 miles with 99% charge and was good for 110 actual miles. Cell voltage and QID seems valid. Most of the other Leaf Spy Pro data is garbage.
.

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Curious... would be interesting to hear some values likes these:
- on a full charge: gids, total pack voltage, min and max cell voltages
- at LBW and VLBW: ditto
- at turtle (not sure if you want to do this): ditto
- AHr

Would be interesting to compare to these to a '18 or '19 40 kWh Leaf to see if you get to use the same band of the battery. Or, if Leaf Spy stats are so out of whack, we can't tell.

Also, if you have or use an EVSE, would be interesting to know how many kWh the car pulls from empty (or something pretty low like VLBW or LBW) to full.

GaleHawkins said:

Picked up our 2016 Leaf SL with new 40 kWh battery installed. SOH = 99.87%. and a range of 142 miles with 99% charge and was good for 110 actual miles. Cell voltage and QID seems valid. Most of the other Leaf Spy Pro data is garbage.
.

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How is the LSP data garbage? How did you determine range was 110 miles which would be right for a 30 kwh pack, not 40?

DaveinOlyWA said:

GaleHawkins said:

Picked up our 2016 Leaf SL with new 40 kWh battery installed. SOH = 99.87%. and a range of 142 miles with 99% charge and was good for 110 actual miles. Cell voltage and QID seems valid. Most of the other Leaf Spy Pro data is garbage.
.

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How is the LSP data garbage? How did you determine range was 110 miles which would be right for a 30 kwh pack, not 40?

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Low Battery Warning was a clue that it wasn't going to go the GOM range of 141 miles.

LSP was set for 30 kWh battery when I took it in for a new battery. That setting now is for a 60 kWh battery by default without any changes on my phone and so far it doesn't save the 40 setting .

I ran both wipers, blower, heat and head lights so that was a hit on the range.

There are a lot of unknowns about LSP that I need to turn into knowns. Yesterday was not easy on my brain and body. Today is a new day.

GaleHawkins said:

DaveinOlyWA said:

GaleHawkins said:

Picked up our 2016 Leaf SL with new 40 kWh battery installed. SOH = 99.87%. and a range of 142 miles with 99% charge and was good for 110 actual miles. Cell voltage and QID seems valid. Most of the other Leaf Spy Pro data is garbage.
.

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How is the LSP data garbage? How did you determine range was 110 miles which would be right for a 30 kwh pack, not 40?

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Low Battery Warning was a clue that it wasn't going to go the GOM range of 141 miles.

LSP was set for 30 kWh battery when I took it in for a new battery. That setting now is for a 60 kWh battery by default without any changes on my phone and so far it doesn't save the 40 setting .

I ran both wipers, blower, heat and head lights so that was a hit on the range.

There are a lot of unknowns about LSP that I need to turn into knowns. Yesterday was not easy on my brain and body. Today is a new day.

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You mean set for 62kwh? (there is no 60 kwh setting )

It should simply autodetect the pack but again, it does not autodetect , it simply parrots what the BMS tells it. I am guessing when the BMS finally figures out what is going on, then LS will read correctly. As for your 110 mile range comment? I am betting you are wrong.

LS has a setting which you can set for estimated range to nearly any SOC. I would set it to 1% then adjust miles/kwh to whatever you are getting and see what it says then.

cwerdna said:

Curious... would be interesting to hear some values likes these:
- on a full charge: gids, total pack voltage, min and max cell voltages
- at LBW and VLBW: ditto
- at turtle (not sure if you want to do this): ditto
- AHr

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Yes, that's key! Most importantly is the value of Ahrs, i.e. it should be over 100 Ahrs at 100% SOC.

With the 40 kW-hr battery in my 2016 Leaf, Leafspy reads erratically for the amp hours. On the 5 minute drive home it bounced around between 200 and 1500.

kW-hr remaning seems to read correctly. SOC is always crazy.

CaliLeaf said:

With the 40 kW-hr battery in my 2016 Leaf, Leafspy reads erratically for the amp hours. On the 5 minute drive home it bounced around between 200 and 1500.

kW-hr remaning seems to read correctly. SOC is always crazy.

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Yeah, the BMS would have been reset with the change. It will probably take anywhere from a few days to a few weeks before it has figured out what happened. Remember; some people who had lost bars and a BMS reset took weeks or even months before the BMS was "back to normal"

CaliLeaf said:

With the 40 kW-hr battery in my 2016 Leaf, Leafspy reads erratically for the amp hours. On the 5 minute drive home it bounced around between 200 and 1500.

kW-hr remaning seems to read correctly. SOC is always crazy.

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Make sure you're reading the correct parameter when using LeafSpy;

1. Ahrs is a measure of battery capacity, and should only decrease (not charging) as a function of time.
2. Amps is a measure of load current on the battery. It can be anywhere from 10-20 amps (stopped with AC on)
to over 200 amps (vehicle accelerating).

CaliLeaf said:

With the 40 kW-hr battery in my 2016 Leaf, Leafspy reads erratically for the amp hours. On the 5 minute drive home it bounced around between 200 and 1500.

kW-hr remaning seems to read correctly. SOC is always crazy.

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Here are some some numbers from our new 40 kWh in our 2016 SL after its second full charge.

It shows 8 DC charges and 840 L1/L2 charges which I thought would have been cleared. The complete battery pack was changed out but not the vehicle control module.

Dash shows 100% charge. LSP reads 97% now but 105% when I picked it up yesterday. SOH=99.76
38.1 kWh and 362.3 ,Ah
-2,159 Wh
491 GIDs (65.5%) perhaps because LSP defaults to 60 as the battery size.
Hx=280.00%
400.5 Volt battery pack

I still do not know why LSP only shows options for 24, 30, 40 and 60 and saves as a 60 and there is no 62 kWh battery option.