Hydrogen and FCEVs discussion thread

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Have you ever been to Delta? I have - it's got a couple of hundred miles of high desert to the north, west and south.
“Magnum’s site adjacent to the Intermountain Power Project is positioned to take full advantage of existing regional electricity grid connections, fully developed transportation infrastructure, ample solar and wind development capacity, a skilled workforce currently transitioning away from coal, and, of course, the unique salt dome opportunity.”


As long as they can get adequate water from the Colorado and Green rivers, renewable energy for electrolysis won't be a problem. ACES isn't just for H2 storage - they also plan to use flow batteries and maybe compressed air storage as well, along with SOFCs.
 
Sounds like they are betting the entire thing on technology and talent that doesn't exist.

I would rather see the not so pie in the sky lower temperature geothermal thing first as opposed to the rube Goldberg solar hydrogen kinda battery contraption which we know is going to suffer from huge efficiency losses.
 
I received a Facebook ad for a certified used Mirai. It pointed to an offer I was able to find at https://www.buyatoyota.com/socal/landing/certifiedmirai/?source=offerdetail.
The Toyota Certified Used Mirai Fuel Cell Vehicle (FCEV) is powered by hydrogen, its only emission is water, and never needs to be plugged in. This innovative electric vehicle is the next step in the mobility revolution, and it’s available today. Mirai’s incentives include:

Up to 3 Years / $15,000
worth of complimentary fuel1
1.9% APR for up to 72 months2
available for well qualified Tier 1+, 1, 2 and 3 credit customers who finance through Toyota Financial Services
Authorized Toy
Toyota must be losing their shirts over these cars just to get the CA ZEV credits. On leases, they were offering 3 years/up to $15K of free fuel and now they're doing it for CPO?

I wonder if Toyota's getting their money's worth?
 
It appears to be valid in Nor Cal, as well: https://www.buyatoyota.com/norcal/offer-detail/?offerid=miscellaneous_179742&filters=*.

Via one of their links, I found some "certified" ones at https://www.sftoyota.com/used-toyota-mirai-san-francisco-ca?isOEMCertified=1 ranging from $13,990 to $17,899. I guess it might be "worth" it for someone who uses $15K worth of fuel in a year (not sure how much that propels the vehicle) and then dumps it at the end. I suspect it will be worth little by that point.
 
cwerdna said:
It appears to be valid in Nor Cal, as well: https://www.buyatoyota.com/norcal/offer-detail/?offerid=miscellaneous_179742&filters=*.

Via one of their links, I found some "certified" ones at https://www.sftoyota.com/used-toyota-mirai-san-francisco-ca?isOEMCertified=1 ranging from $13,990 to $17,899. I guess it might be "worth" it for someone who uses $15K worth of fuel in a year (not sure how much that propels the vehicle) and then dumps it at the end. I suspect it will be worth little by that point.

I'm surprised they're so cheap. Toyota has been said to be losing $50-100k per car! If I were in California, I might actually consider getting one of those as my next daily driver. Hydrogen remains very expensive, though, at $15-18/kg, so it probably doesn't make sense yet.

$15k buys you about 1 ton of H2, and each kilogram of H2 gets you about 15 kWh or 60 miles. So... 60,000 miles?
 
coleafrado said:
cwerdna said:
It appears to be valid in Nor Cal, as well: https://www.buyatoyota.com/norcal/offer-detail/?offerid=miscellaneous_179742&filters=*.

Via one of their links, I found some "certified" ones at https://www.sftoyota.com/used-toyota-mirai-san-francisco-ca?isOEMCertified=1 ranging from $13,990 to $17,899. I guess it might be "worth" it for someone who uses $15K worth of fuel in a year (not sure how much that propels the vehicle) and then dumps it at the end. I suspect it will be worth little by that point.

I'm surprised they're so cheap. Toyota has been said to be losing $50-100k per car! If I were in California, I might actually consider getting one of those as my next daily driver. Hydrogen remains very expensive, though, at $15-18/kg, so it probably doesn't make sense yet.

$15k buys you about 1 ton of H2, and each kilogram of H2 gets you about 15 kWh or 60 miles. So... 60,000 miles?

I can see an opportunity for someone to turo these things. 15k miles = 45 miles per day. If it can be rented for $50/day, that'll cover the price of the car within the first year, and all on Toyota's dime! It's just a matter of how you market it (free "gas" included with rental! - 50-mile daily mileage limit applies).
 
^^^^
Hmmm... interesting idea. Once this COVID-19 pandemic blows over, I may consider that.

There is a H2 fueling station just down the street from my work. But, we're on lockdown now (see https://www.sccgov.org/sites/phd/DiseaseInformation/novel-coronavirus/Pages/home.aspx) so I am required to WFH since my work can be accomplished from home. And, my company unfortunately (?) doesn't fall under the category of an "essential business" as listed at https://www.sccgov.org/sites/phd/DiseaseInformation/novel-coronavirus/Pages/order-health-officer-031620.aspx.
 
Pretty simple graphic on "Hydrogen vs electric - Volkswagen"
https://www.greencarreports.com/news/1127660_battery-electric-or-hydrogen-fuel-cell-vw-lays-out-why-one-is-the-winner
 
For a somewhat different and more positive take on sustainable H2's long-term prospects, GCC had an article a couple of days ago. Haven't figured out how to link it on my phone, but the title starts "BNEF report finds hydrogen promising decarbonization pathway", and also lays out the issues that will need resolving to get there, not just for transport but also for things like steel, cement and ammonia production, all of which will need to be made without fossil fuels.
 
GCC:
SGH2 building largest green hydrogen production facility in California; gasification of waste into H2



Energy company SGH2 is bringing the world’s biggest green hydrogen production facility to Lancaster, California. The plant will feature SGH2’s technology, which will gasify recycled mixed paper waste to produce green hydrogen that reduces carbon emissions by two to three times more than green hydrogen produced using electrolysis and renewable energy, and is five to seven times cheaper. . . .

SGH2 says that its green hydrogen is cost competitive with “gray” hydrogen produced from fossil fuels such as natural gas—the source of the majority of hydrogen used in the United States.

The City of Lancaster will host and co-own the green hydrogen production facility, according to a recent memorandum of understanding. The SGH2 Lancaster plant will be able to produce up to 11,000 kilograms of green hydrogen per day, and 3.8 million kilograms per year—nearly three times more than any other green hydrogen facility, built or under construction, anywhere in the world.

The facility will process 42,000 tons of recycled waste annually. The City of Lancaster will supply guaranteed feedstock of recyclables, and will save between $50 to $75 per ton in landfilling and landfill space costs. California’s largest owners and operators of hydrogen refueling stations (HRS) are in negotiation to purchase the plant’s output to supply current and future HRS to be built in the state over the next ten years. . . .

SGH2 anticipates breaking ground in Q1 2021, start-up and commissioning in Q4 2022, and full operations in Q1 2023. . . .


https://www.greencarcongress.com/2020/05/20200521-sgh2.html


We'll see if the bolded section turns out to be true, always assuming the plant gets built.
 
GRA said:
We'll see if the bolded section turns out to be true, always assuming the plant gets built.


Once again production is up against a wall of efficiency. Even is nice but really need to find a way to undercut by 50% and improve from there. The rent is just too damn high.
 
smkettner said:
GRA said:
We'll see if the bolded section turns out to be true, always assuming the plant gets built.


Once again production is up against a wall of efficiency. Even is nice but really need to find a way to undercut by 50% and improve from there. The rent is just too damn high.


Efficiency is important, but so is capability, which is why far less efficient fossil-fueled ICEs won out over BEVs. Maybe BEV capability will increase to equal that of H2 FCEVs, but I've long felt each ZEV tech will find the niche where its advantages are most important, or we'll see hybrids of the two (PHFCEVs) where both are important. Assuming roughly equivalent economies of scale and costs, of course.

So, BEVs for local cars, buses, yard locomotives and truck P&D/regional distribution where weight and flexibility aren't an issue, FCEVs for long haul trucks, trains, buses and ships and maybe regional airliners, and PHFCEVs for all-around cars.
 
Both GCC:
1st development phase of Autostack Industrie project for commercialization of fuel cell stacks complete


https://www.greencarcongress.com/2020/05/20200526-ai.html


. . . The ongoing project, which began in 2017 and runs until the end of 2021, is pursuing three main objectives:

Automotive high-performance technology: highest power density including lower platinum loading, complete project maturity, achievement of automotive target costs;

Exploitation of industrial economies of scale: joint FC specification and system interfaces, scalable FC output, common technological platform; and

Mass production capability: selection and evaluation of critical processes, achievement of automotive quality requirements, plant planning for 10,000 and 30,000 stacks per year. . . .



. . . Air Liquide introducing next-gen hydrogen stations


https://www.greencarcongress.com/2020/05/20200526-al.html


Air Liquide is introducing next-generation hydrogen stations with a high capacity of 1,000 kg and dual filling positions capable of filling 250 vehicles per day. Air Liquide’s high capacity gaseous hydrogen station can provide 700 bar fills at T40 temperatures per SAE J2601 protocol.

Air Liquide integrates compression, high pressure storage, and cooling on a single skid. Not only does this reduce the overall footprint, but allows for an easier installation.

The station skid measures 28' x 9'6" x 13'4'. Its footprint does not include hydrogen source/storage, dispenser(s), or utilities. . . .
 
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