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Re: Government subsidies/perks/mandates for EVs

Tue May 19, 2020 9:57 pm

This seems to cover the same ground as the UCS annual reports, but I do like the color pie charts showing each state's sources of electricity by type:

IEVS:
Here Is How The Source Of Electricity Influences An EVs Indirect CO2 Emissions

https://insideevs.com/news/424074/how-e ... emissions/
Guy [I have lots of experience designing/selling off-grid AE systems, some using EVs but don't own one. Local trips are by foot, bike and/or rapid transit].

The 'best' is the enemy of 'good enough'. Copper shot, not Silver bullets.

GRA
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Re: Government subsidies/perks/mandates for EVs

Tue May 19, 2020 10:05 pm

LeftieBiker wrote:
Tue May 19, 2020 7:40 pm
Electric vehicles emit less pollution than ICE vehicles even when the source of the electricity is coal burning power plants. Show us power plants using bunker oil and you will have a point.

I know you meant pure ICEs, but I'll just point out that hybrids are still ahead in West Virginia and maybe a few other states that are heavily coal-dependent. The number of states where that is the case has been declining every year..

Here's a link pointing to UCS data for 2018: viewtopic.php?f=13&t=25460&p=579056&hilit=Ucs#p579056
Guy [I have lots of experience designing/selling off-grid AE systems, some using EVs but don't own one. Local trips are by foot, bike and/or rapid transit].

The 'best' is the enemy of 'good enough'. Copper shot, not Silver bullets.

Oilpan4
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Re: Government subsidies/perks/mandates for EVs

Wed May 20, 2020 1:07 am

If you're worried that much about CO2 you probably shouldn't even own a car.
trumpvirus
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Re: Government subsidies/perks/mandates for EVs

Fri May 22, 2020 5:05 pm

GCC:
Bipartisan bill in Congress would direct DOD to replace non-tactical vehicles with ZEVs

https://www.greencarcongress.com/2020/0 ... neros.html

Gradual replacement via attrition. Probably has zero chance of passage through the current Senate, but an idea for the next Congress assuming the Senate and the presidency change hands. As DoD's the world's largest customer for fossil fuels, they're probably onboard.
Guy [I have lots of experience designing/selling off-grid AE systems, some using EVs but don't own one. Local trips are by foot, bike and/or rapid transit].

The 'best' is the enemy of 'good enough'. Copper shot, not Silver bullets.

Oilpan4
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Re: Government subsidies/perks/mandates for EVs

Fri May 22, 2020 8:16 pm

The air force started buying hybrid cars back around 2010 to 2012.
If they were to buy pure electric vehicles there's no where to charge them on base.
The electrical systems on a lot of buildings are antique and already over loaded.
Then when electric vehicles go down range they just get charged with diesel generators.
DoD wasted a ton of money on CNG vehicles and filling stations during the obama, biden reign I doubt they are eager to do it again.
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Re: Government subsidies/perks/mandates for EVs

Fri May 22, 2020 10:37 pm

Oilpan4 wrote:
Fri May 22, 2020 8:16 pm
The air force started buying hybrid cars back around 2010 to 2012.
If they were to buy pure electric vehicles there's no where to charge them on base.
The electrical systems on a lot of buildings are antique and already over loaded.
Then when electric vehicles go down range they just get charged with diesel generators.
DoD wasted a ton of money on CNG vehicles and filling stations during the obama, biden reign I doubt they are eager to do it again.

Then you haven't been paying attention to what DoD has been doing re PV both on bases and in combat zones (fuel convoys being one of the major targets and source of U.S. casualties), or bothered to read the article, which also mentions the need to provide on-base charging facilities.
Guy [I have lots of experience designing/selling off-grid AE systems, some using EVs but don't own one. Local trips are by foot, bike and/or rapid transit].

The 'best' is the enemy of 'good enough'. Copper shot, not Silver bullets.

Oilpan4
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Re: Government subsidies/perks/mandates for EVs

Sat May 23, 2020 6:35 pm

I'm well aware of what the limitations.
PV installs down range are little more than PR. The PV I have seen in the PR are a joke, I have setup down range power systems so unlike the reporters who have no idea of the power requirements for a camp, I do.
I'm well aware of supply line limitations.
One thing the article doesn't mention is the historic limitations on expeditionary advances. From gulf war 1 all the way back to ww2 the historic limit of the distance ground forces can advance into enemy lines is about 250 miles and the supply lines are stretched to the breaking point. Adding electrics won't improve this at all. Hybrids maybe. Electrics will just die, be abandoned, pushed off the road and set on fire.
Do you expect the enemy to leave the power plant going and all electrical infrastructure intact so we can charge all our electric vehicles when we roll into a city?
HA!
The answer is the enemy wouldn't have a chance to, air force or navy war planes would have already turned the power off permanently with bombs ahead of allied advance.

What the article doesn't consider is the level of neglect most base electrical systems have been worn down to.

For example when I was at Langley and then much later on at cannon we had to manually engage a 480v contactor to run a peice of machinery because "the control circuit hadn't worked in years", "because there wasn't money to fix it", "because the setup was obsolete and you can't get replacement parts for it, so it all has to be ripped out and replaced". In a nut shell that sums up all your older buildings on any base which is the majority of them.
After I got out of the air force in the civilian world you would be fired on the spot no questions asked with 0 chance of collecting unemployment for manually energizing a contactor like that without full bomb squad like PPE and a safety permit, these are OSHA regulations, not company policy.
At Carswell, a weird joint air force, navy base, with federal womens prison the electrical infrastructure was so overloaded the power would go out multiple times every summer due to over loaded lines, switch gear and transformers. DoD and DoJ would just argue about how the electrical isn't their responsibility and it never got fixed, just bandaided.

That article and bill was written with child like optimism and nativity and doesn't factor in anything from the real world. It sounds good if you dont know anything about the military, war or don't give it a second worth of critical thinking.
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Re: Government subsidies/perks/mandates for EVs

Sat May 23, 2020 10:37 pm

Seeing as how no one is suggesting BEVs in a combat zone (PHEVs are a different matter), your comments about them are irrelevant.

As to existing base infrastructure , sure a lot of it is obsolete, which is why upgrading is necessary. A lot of U.S. bases are becoming micro-grids, so they can continue to operate in natural disasters. As to combat bases, their energy demands depend on their size and where they are. A lot of FOB's demand is for generators to run the comms and other electronics, and that's why you see PV so widely deployed at them. Naturally they still have the gensets, but the fuel requirements are much reduced. As POL is the biggest log requirement by far in both cube and tonnage, anything that can reduce the demand for it is valuable. A 2017:article:
U.S. military marches forward on green energy, despite Trump

https://mobile-reuters-com.cdn.ampproje ... SKBN1683BL

BTW, one of the major supporters of boosting EERE was Gen. Mattis, from his experiences in Afghanistan (2001, FOB Rhino) and elsewhere.
Guy [I have lots of experience designing/selling off-grid AE systems, some using EVs but don't own one. Local trips are by foot, bike and/or rapid transit].

The 'best' is the enemy of 'good enough'. Copper shot, not Silver bullets.

Oilpan4
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Re: Government subsidies/perks/mandates for EVs

Sun May 24, 2020 1:27 am

Some bases can micro grid because of diesel generators. But i dont think i have seen any of the state side bases with extensive backups.
Typically the hospital, the base command building, the POL guys, air traffic control assets on an airforce base have backup generators and not a whole lot more.
Over seas almost everything that isn't base housing has a backup generator.
Out here cannon air force bases idea of backup power for the base was to bring lines in from both Texas grid and west coast grid to their sub station.
If the military wants to adopt "green tech" they should, we don't need politicians who know nothing about "green tech" and "the military" forcing it one way or the other.
I would love for the military to upgrade all their bases, I could quit my job, get with an electrical contractor, make minimum 2x more money for about 1/3 the work, do that about 3 or 4 years. Or if they harden the base against solar storm and man made emp that would stretch it out at least 10 years then I could retire.
But I dont see it happening any time soon.
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Re: Government subsidies/perks/mandates for EVs

Sun May 24, 2020 5:15 pm

Of course it won't happen anytime soon. Given the sheer number and size of DoD facilities, it has already been underway for more than a decade, and will take several more decades to complete, depending on the vagaries of funding. Example from last year:
Military Microgrids Featured at Microgrid 2019 in San Diego, May 14-16

https://microgridknowledge.com/military ... nference/

. . . Fortunately for the microgrid industry, the military is placing increasing emphasis on energy resiliency, a key benefit of microgrids. For example, the Army now mandates that critical infrastructure be able to withstand a 14-day power outage, up from 2-3 days in the past. . . .

The May 14-16 conference features a special session, “The Reliability Mission: How and Why the Military is Prioritizing Distributed Energy Resources. . . ."

In addition, the event includes a tour of one of the most advanced military microgrids in development, located at MCAS.

Reliable energy is crucial for MCAS — the San Diego base serves marines and sailors from the 3rd Marine Aircraft Wing, which provide combat ready expeditionary aviation forces capable of short-notice worldwide deployment. It is home to 10,000 service members and their families and supports more than 200 aircraft.

Backed by $20 million in Congressional funding, MCAS is building a microgrid that integrates multiple resources and showcases sophisticated, best-in-class features.

In addition to supplying redundant power, the microgrid is designed to help green the base’s operations, bolster cybersecurity, reduce demand charges and manage overall energy load. By participating in demand response and providing grid services, the microgrid also will support the efficient functioning of California’s electric grid. . . .

More details on the Miramar system at :
MCAS Miramar conducts successful test on microgrid

https://www.mciwest.marines.mil/News/Ne ... microgrid/

. . . The Microgrid Control System (MCS) in the EWOC provides normal, economic, test and island modes for the microgrid. Island mode is when the installation is receiving no electricity from outside and is completely powering itself meeting the energy resilience goal set forth by Marine Corps Installations Command.

Reliability and efficiency will be built into the microgrid by utilizing diverse methods of energy production including landfill gas power, solar photovoltaic (PV) panels, clean diesel and natural gas generators and demand response. . . .

Another article:
How Is the US Military Using Solar Power?

https://solarmetric-com.cdn.ampproject. ... r-power%2F
Guy [I have lots of experience designing/selling off-grid AE systems, some using EVs but don't own one. Local trips are by foot, bike and/or rapid transit].

The 'best' is the enemy of 'good enough'. Copper shot, not Silver bullets.

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